1312 Lime St to Newcastle

[Foxcover]

Just on the above train to Manchester - any one any idea why speed limited to 70mph all the way to Manchester? Unit feels fine and nothing seems to be late in front of us?

 

[PHILIPE]

Just on the above train to Manchester - any one any idea why speed limited to 70mph all the way to Manchester? Unit feels fine and nothing seems to be late in front of us?

Can't see what the problem is. The train train arrived early at Manchester Vic.

 

[Bovverboy]

Looks like nice steady progress, to me. No point in going hell for leather and then having to wait for a platform at Victoria - not that that would be very likely today, with all the Bolton & Wigan trains bustituted.
I see that trains heading from Victoria towards the Chat Moss line or Castlefield Junction theoretically have a tracking point at Salford Central, although it invariably shows 'No Report'. Does this mean that replacing the missing platforms at SFD is back on the cards, or is it just a red herring? I haven't heard anything about this for quite a while now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looks like you dropped time over Chat Moss, behind 2A12 (Southport-Golborne Jn-Piccadilly) running a bit late.
The xx12 usually (without Northern diversions) has a clear run, but can get caught by late-running Scotland-Airport (or the reverse) at Parkside.
The following xx15 Airport EMU is more likely to get stuck behind a late-running North Wales train at Earlestown.
But in any case there's the long wait at Victoria to catch up (which disappears on May 20).
You were back on time at Irwell Bridge Jn.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81622/2018/05/12/advanced

 

[Foxcover]

Thanks - it just shows how easy even a 32 minute timing is (to arrival at Vic) given we made it without any hard running! It’s a great quick run no matter how the driver manages it!

 

[dilbertphil]

Probably a bit of eco driving going on. You can use 2 engines over Chat Moss, go about 70mph and still arrive at Victoria on time if notva bit early.

 

[setdown]

How quick could the journey be done in a Class 185 on full whack with nothing in the way?

 

[dilbertphil]

Well linespeed goes up to 90 just after Broad Green then a 60 over Astley then 75 all the way to a 50 just before Ordsall then speed reduces into Victoria a clear run on signals and max speed everywhere could probably see you do it in just under 30 mins I reckon.

 

[Merseysider]

How quick could the journey be done in a Class 185 on full whack with nothing in the way?

Probably 27 minutes if linespeed were 90/100 the whole way (I have no idea what it is off the top of my head) looking at how fast York - Thirsk, a slightly shorter journey, can be done by a 185.

Of course, it won’t actually be 90/100 the whole way, but the journey time could certainly be shortened.

 

[Starmill]

The maximum permissible speed is 90, raised from 75 3-4 years ago.

The thing that really gets me is that the lower speed at Astley is permenent for all trains. It really seems to drag on and it feels like it adds a couple of minutes. Does anyone know what actually causes it? Surely it's not just the one crossing?

 

[The Planner]

It is the crossing.

 

[B&I]

It is the crossing.

Exactly how vital is that crossing ?

 

[Thomas6187]

As a comparison, Thursday 10th May, the 03:38 Liverpool-Piccadilly ran using a 319 and completed the journey in 30 minutes. I think Piccadilly is about 1/2 mile further from Liverpool and it would have had a slow approach in to Piccadilly as it terminated on 13b

 

[td97]

As a comparison, Thursday 10th May, the 03:38 Liverpool-Piccadilly ran using a 319 and completed the journey in 30 minutes. I think Piccadilly is about 1/2 mile further from Liverpool and it would have had a slow approach in to Piccadilly as it terminated on 13b

That service (1H40 0338) arrived at Ordsall Ln Jct 2 mins earlier than 1E72 (1312)

 

[The Planner]

Exactly how vital is that crossing ?

It is more the cost of dealing with it I think.

 

[Elecman]

Exactly how vital is that crossing ?

Very to the establishments the other side of it

 

[B&I]

It is more the cost of dealing with it I think.

As in replacing it with a bridge ? Surely the cost of just taking out a crossing is not that great ?

 

[B&I]

As a comparison, Thursday 10th May, the 03:38 Liverpool-Piccadilly ran using a 319 and completed the journey in 30 minutes. I think Piccadilly is about 1/2 mile further from Liverpool and it would have had a slow approach in to Piccadilly as it terminated on 13b

I've a vague memory of taking a Lime Street-Oxford Rd train first thing on a Sunday over Chat Moss, pre-electrification (think it was an engineering-related diversion), and reaching Ordsall in 27 minutes on a 185.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As in replacing it with a bridge ? Surely the cost of just taking out a crossing is not that great ?

I should think it's more the cost of installing an automatic crossing with CCTV and obstacle deflectors, for a very low amount of road traffic.
It seems like "unfinished business" to leave such a speed restriction, given all the talk of reduced journey times Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool.
You'd have expected Astley and Eccles boxes to have been migrated to the ROC by now, but they are soldiering on, as are St Helens Central and Baguley Fold (at least Ashton has now gone).
Another project in the offing on that stretch is the new Port Salford connection (between the M60 and M62 bridges) with a big uplift in freight.
It was once "imminent" but has gone very quiet.

 

[B&I]

I should think it's more the cost of installing an automatic crossing with CCTV and obstacle deflectors, for a very low amount of road traffic.
It seems like "unfinished business" to leave such a speed restriction, given all the talk of reduced journey times Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool.
You'd have expected Astley and Eccles boxes to have been migrated to the ROC by now, but they are soldiering on, as are St Helens Central and Baguley Fold (at least Ashton has now gone).
Another project in the offing on that stretch is the new Port Salford connection (between the M60 and M62 bridges) with a big uplift in freight.
It was once "imminent" but has gone very quiet.

I was thinking more complete closure. It doesn't look like an important road to or from anywhere

 

[Spartacus]

I was thinking more complete closure. It doesn't look like an important road to or from anywhere

What probably doesn't help is the lack of alternatives. Going from one side to the other via an alternative route would take about 40 minutes, more if you're doing it in a tractor, could be two hours out of your day if you've business on either side.

 

[notlob.divad]

Yes it is a 15.2 mile diversion to get around it with farmers potentially separated from their fields. Just removing it without any thought of replacement is not really an option, and the location slap in the middle of the moss will make over/under alternatives incredibly expensive to construct.

I am however surprised that the recent upgrading of the line has not included automating this crossing.

 

[Francis]

The Astley crossing is a public footpath right of way, but not seemingly a bridleway or a vehicular right of way. That said, it used to be an interesting afternoon cycle ride over the Moss from Leigh to Irlam, and pretty traffic free on the Moss. Just the occasional tractor or farm cart. There is also another public footpath crossing the railway about half a mile east, just where the old mineral line from Astley Green colliery met the Lpool & M/C in a triangular junction.

 

[Mathew S]

The crossing at Astley is (was, I haven't known them for a few years) used by the family living in the farm house next to the railway to access schools/work/etc. on the other side of the line. Even going back 10+ years, they were getting into huge rows with Network Rail over the amount of time the crossing was closed for, how long they had to wait to cross, etc. etc.
I'm not sure there's space to the south of the crossing to install a bridge high enough to clear the OHLE, so whilst it's not ideal for NR or for the locals, I do think that the crossing is there to stay.

If there are improvements which could be made to the crossing which would allow linespeed to be raised, then that - of course - should happen.

 

[sw1ller]

It’s a lot of work just to raise the line speed by 15 mph (35 for loco/freight). It doesn’t add a great deal of time. It’s never going to be increased to 90 at that point due to what the track is built on. It’s quite rough riding on that part and it’s very noticeable from where the line is at 90.

 

[mike57]

I have cycled over this crossing a few times when I am staying over near Warrington. The railway is on a slight embankment, which I think would make an overbridge difficult, and you are one of the 'soggy' parts of Chat Moss so a underbridge would be nearly impossible. Quite a few vehicles use it, for access to the local properties, and also I suspect some use it as a short cut, there is just over a mile of very potholed gravel surface but the rest of the route from Astley to Irlam is surfaced, all be it quite bumpy in places. You have to open the gates yourself, although they are interlocked with the signaling, and there are small gates for walkers and cyclists. When ever I have used it the signalman seems to keep a pretty close eye on the movements over the crossing. Why is the line speed 60, I have been over similar crossings when out cycling where speeds are higher. It also feels very remote, when in fact you are less than 8 miles as the crow flies from Manchester City center

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

As some have mentioned the physical characteristics of the crossing and its immediate environs make it really awkward all round. The sunken nature of the land means the sight-lines on the southern approach are poor and the bog would make any alternative, either over or under, particularly expensive to build. I suspect that if Network Rail was absolutely determined to deal with it then the best solution is to eliminate the need for it at all by buying the properties most affected and then demolishing them while letting the land return to its natural state. Some positives on the environmental protection side, negatives on the local economic side.

 

[Leigh White]

Took my grandson to the crossing a few months ago to watch the trains and was surprised with the amount of vans and cars coming and going in this secluded spot.

 

[jayah]

It’s a lot of work just to raise the line speed by 15 mph (35 for loco/freight). It doesn’t add a great deal of time. It’s never going to be increased to 90 at that point due to what the track is built on. It’s quite rough riding on that part and it’s very noticeable from where the line is at 90.

It would be a tad embarrassing if a £10m bridge saved more time on the route than the hundreds of £m spent on wiring it.

 

[driver_m]

Been over it a few times, and there has usually been someone waiting to cross. As someone also said, I don't think I'd like to be doing 90 over it, as the passengers would feel like they're on a ship doing a rough ferry crossing!