1702 London Liverpool St - Norwich

[EssexGonzo]

I found a new train!

Well it is for me, anyway.

1702 from Liverpool Street to Norwich. It's a 12 coach 321 which unusually for a Norwich service, stops at Shenfield.

I would have noticed this if it had been stopping at SNF for a while, and it fills the aching chasm between the 1654 and 1704. [emoji6]

Its on Mondays timetable but is this permanent or seasonal, does anyone know, and is it new or just a retimed existing NRW service?

 

[swt_passenger]

It was running in the December 2013 timetable, whether it was a 12.321 at that time I have no idea.

 

[yorkie]

Was running in 2012!

Usually yes, units work:
1p48 17:02 Liverpool St. - Norwich
1p65 19:30 Norwich - Liverpool St.....

 

[anti-pacer]

A 321 all the way from London to Norwich?

Jeez, the Anglia Mainline has gone backwards in recent years!

 

[swt_passenger]

It's a peak extra relief aimed at the stops the Norwich train misses out - it isn't really there for through journeys.

 

[yorkie]

A 321 all the way from London to Norwich?

Yes. See this explanation from dk1

17.02 only runs through to Norwich as no path to about turn at Stowmarket. .

Jeez, the Anglia Mainline has gone backwards in recent years!

Really?!

In 1987 this train went no further than Colchester. In 2004, it was Harwich. Now it's extended as far as Norwich (I found it in a 2010 timetable so it's not that new). How is that "backwards"?!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Really?!

In 1987 this train went no further than Colchester. In 2004, it was Harwich. Now it's extended as far as Norwich (I found it in a 2010 timetable so it's not that new). How is that "backwards"?!

I think it was in reference to the stock, not so much where it has run in previous years.

A 321 isn't the most glamorous of trains on an Intercity route! It's like having a Pacer on a Paddington to Penzance service!

 

[380gk]

I think it was in reference to the stock, not so much where it has run in previous years.

A 321 isn't the most glamorous of trains on an Intercity route! It's like having a Pacer on a Paddington to Penzance service!

Not quite.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think it was in reference to the stock, not so much where it has run in previous years.

A 321 isn't the most glamorous of trains on an Intercity route! It's like having a Pacer on a Paddington to Penzance service!

Just because its nominally an 'inter city' route doesn't mean all the stock on secondary services has to be 'inter city'. It's really no different to having 350s running up and down the WCML in between 390s...

 

[dk1]

Just because its nominally an 'inter city' route doesn't mean all the stock on secondary services has to be 'inter city'. It's really no different to having 350s running up and down the WCML in between 395s...

Or 390s even

 

[swt_passenger]

Or 390s even

I'll fix that...

 

[ValleyLines142]

Just because its nominally an 'inter city' route doesn't mean all the stock on secondary services has to be 'inter city'. It's really no different to having 350s running up and down the WCML in between 395s...

Not saying that, but a 321 is slightly inferior to the 90+Mk3 stock.

 

[NSE]

It's hardly the same as a pacer. Without looking at the calling pattern and timetable, it's running its usual 321-esque service to the Ipswich area, then rather than turn round, all 12 carriages continue beyond their normal patch to Norwich. Yes I doubt many passengers do the whole route to Norwich, but I hardly see the harm in providing the service, I think it's a good idea. Anyway, Paddington to Penzance is, like, what, six hours? This service could get to
Norwich and back before a HST gets to Penzance, that's a ridiculous comparison.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not saying that, but a 321 is slightly inferior to the 90+Mk3 stock.

Where is it written that every train on the route must be a 90 + Mk3? Perhaps they ought to bin it to avoid people having to use it?

 

[dk1]

It is reasonably well used in lots of ways not least because the 17.00 is Ipswich & Diss only then the 17.30 runs fast to Manningtree. Those most shocked appear those with cheap 1st Advance on the 19.30 return.

 

[Sleepy]

It is reasonably well used in lots of ways not least because the 17.00 is Ipswich & Diss only then the 17.30 runs fast to Manningtree. Those most shocked appear those with cheap 1st Advance on the 19.30 return.

ah the hard done by £13 1930 brigade ! (read the timetable - no catering, WiFi etc.) Seriously the 1702 does provide reasonable price Advance tickets in the peak if Anytime prices are too steep for you/ employers.

 

[yorkie]

A 321 isn't the most glamorous of trains on an Intercity route! It's like having a Pacer on a Paddington to Penzance service!

I disagree,

Having a 100mph EMU out of Liverpool St extended to Norwich is much more like having a Turbostar from Paddington to Newbury extended to Frome.

 

[Rick1984]

having done Norwich to London on a busy 321 a couple of times I can confirm it's not pleasant. A 317/7 would probably be ok though.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Where is it written that every train on the route must be a 90 + Mk3? Perhaps they ought to bin it to avoid people having to use it?

Read my last post.

I disagree,

Having a 100mph EMU out of Liverpool St extended to Norwich is much more like having a Turbostar from Paddington to Newbury extended to Frome.

Perhaps a Pacer was slightly too extreme as a comparison, but the principal still stands.

Anyway, Paddington to Penzance is, like, what, six hours? This service could get to Norwich and back before a HST gets to Penzance, that's a ridiculous comparison.

I'm not quite sure how this is related to what I said. I haven't mentioned journey times. This is off-topic and completely unrelated to what I said.

I merely said that the stock was not ideal for such a service. The 321s I'm sure are good workhorses, but I wouldn't want to travel on one.

having done Norwich to London on a busy 321 a couple of times I can confirm it's not pleasant. A 317/7 would probably be ok though.

THIS is what I mean. Thank you; there are some people who understand!

 

[306024]

having done Norwich to London on a busy 321 a couple of times I can confirm it's not pleasant. A 317/7 would probably be ok though.

Nope! Even a 12 car 317/7 doesn't have nearly enough seats to cope with the passenger loadings on the 17.02 LST - NRW. For 8 weeks from Dec 2011 until Feb 2012 this train was indeed worked by 12x317/7. But over time it has proved a popular service and loadings have increased, such that when the 317/7s were taken off lease by Abellio, it had to be replaced by a 12 car 321 rather than just an 8 car, despite an 8 car 321 having more seats that a 12 car 317/7.

As others have said, this train is useful for shorter intermediate journeys, you only have to see the numbers that board at Chelmsford for example. And if you think it should be a 90/DVT, just look at the stopping pattern, it would be totally impractical.

In 1987 this train went no further than Colchester. In 2004, it was Harwich. Now it's extended as far as Norwich (I found it in a 2010 timetable so it's not that new). How is that "backwards"?!

It used to run to Harwich International to connect with the Stena Line HSS to the Hook. When Stena reverted to conventional ferries on the Hook of Holland route it was diverted to serve Ipswich and Stowmarket, and for the operational reasons already documented, extended to Norwich.

 

[bramling]

having done Norwich to London on a busy 321 a couple of times I can confirm it's not pleasant. A 317/7 would probably be ok though.

Just out of interest, how heavily does the return service load? Wouldn't mind doing this for some fast EMU running, but only if it's likely to be fairly empty.

 

[306024]

Should be able to get a coach to yourself leaving Norwich

The 19.30 NRW-LST has loads of space, no need to worry about that train being busy.

 

[Class 33]

I merely said that the stock was not ideal for such a service. The 321s I'm sure are good workhorses, but I wouldn't want to travel on one.

I like the Class 321's. Been a few years since I was last on one though, and I've only done a small handful of journeys on them. I like the 1990's feel to them, and the engine sound. The only thing I don't like about them though is the seating doesn't line up with the windows!!

My last journey on one a few years ago for most of the journey wasn't very pleasant though. On a peak evening hour service from London Liverpool Street-Harwich International. When I boared at Liverpool Street there were hardly any available seats. And the only one I could find was a middle seat in a bay of 6 seats. Not a comfortable journey as far as Colchester!

 

[Rick1984]

I think when I've got a 321 it's been as a stand in.
My point about a 317/7 was purely based on the fact I'd imagine them to be more comfortable than a 321. (though never been on one). Nothing to do with capacity.

Also why do they use 321's over 360's? Is this down to capacity again. Much more pleasant for that length of journey.

 

[306024]

A 317/7 is more comfortable, especially in first class, but not so comfortable if you can't get a seat

Only Ilford, Colchester and Clacton drivers sign 360s, none of whom sign Norwich. All down to route/traction knowledge. Besides, as we keep saying, no one (in their right mind) would travel the whole length of the journey with the 17.00 express right ahead of it.

 

[NSE]

I'm not quite sure how this is related to what I said. I haven't mentioned journey times. This is off-topic and completely unrelated to what I said.

I merely said that the stock was not ideal for such a service. The 321s I'm sure are good workhorses, but I wouldn't want to travel on one.

Of course it's related. My point is having substandard stock on a route which is not too much longer than some of its normal routes, which is not designed to have passengers travel (unless they have cheap Advances etc) the whole end to end is fine. Passengers travel end to end on Paddington-Penzance trains and to points in Cornwall near Penzance, so plenty of people are on the train for 4/5 hours plus. With the Norwich service this is not the case.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Of course it's related. My point is having substandard stock on a route which is not too much longer than some of its normal routes, which is not designed to have passengers travel (unless they have cheap Advances etc) the whole end to end is fine. Passengers travel end to end on Paddington-Penzance trains and to points in Cornwall near Penzance, so plenty of people are on the train for 4/5 hours plus. With the Norwich service this is not the case.

Yes but there is no evidence to say that no one travels end to end on that route.

 

[yorkie]

Yes but there is no evidence to say that no one travels end to end on that route.

The fact is this is an extended commuter service, and the only people on it are people who literally just missed the 1700 by seconds, or people who booked a cheap fare on it. In both cases the extension of this service is an added bonus and adds an extra option on top of awaiting the 1730. The existence of this additional option isn't something to complain about in my opinion.

I have no idea why we're comparing this with London to Penzance (!!); as mentioned earlier if there was an equivalent on the Great Western it would be to a destination much closer to London!

 

[ValleyLines142]

The fact is this is an extended commuter service, and the only people on it are people who literally just missed the 1700 by seconds, or people who booked a cheap fare on it. In both cases the extension of this service is an added bonus and adds an extra option on top of awaiting the 1730. The existence of this additional option isn't something to complain about in my opinion.

I have no idea why we're comparing this with London to Penzance (!!); as mentioned earlier if there was an equivalent on the Great Western it would be to a destination much closer to London!

I don't understand how this has got to where it is but the point I stand by, which is the only point I have ever tried to express on this thread, is that the stock isn't the best.

That is all from me. This conversation is over.

 

[306024]

Yes but there is no evidence to say that no one travels end to end on that route.

There may well be no evidence of this in Cardiff/Bristol, but those of us that work and travel on the route know how this train loads. Like Yorkie I really don't see the issue, but as the conversation is over I'll shut up.