195s truly awful, not a step forward

[dp707]

I can’t believe northern rail, ever evaluated these properly before ordering a large fleet...the caf designs are really bad. The list of flaws is endless Ride quality is appalling, it’s difficult to find a seat that aligns with windows, seats are typical of modern designs rock hard and too upright. Door operating buttons are confusing, screen messages and announcements are typically of northern rail....irritating. It’s as though they don’t want passengers to have a pleasant relaxing journey. Un face lifted 158s are far superior

I can’t believe northern rail, ever evaluated these properly before ordering a large fleet...the caf designs are really bad. The list of flaws is endless Ride quality is appalling, it’s difficult to find a seat that aligns with windows, seats are typical of modern designs rock hard and too upright. Door operating buttons are confusing, screen messages and announcements are typically of northern rail....irritating. It’s as though they don’t want passengers to have a pleasant relaxing journey. Un face lifted 158s are far superior

Ps it’s not just CAF, could make similar criticisms of hitachi designs.....what an oversight to have pantographs on end vehicles

 

[Islineclear3_1]

what an oversight to have pantographs on end vehicles

What's the problem with that? This is nothing new

 

[dp707]

If you notice pendolino pantographs are on inner vehicles....a very good reason for that...if the driver happens to be using the forward one ( its usual practice to use the rear one) there is time to lower it when a defect on the OHLE is noticed.

 

[D821]

To play devil's advocate here, if it's a short train that's going to be travelling slower than a Pendolino then it wouldn't make that greater difference whether it was at the front or back, surely?

 

[dp707]

I think time is of the essence In lowering pantographs..to avoid further damage,whatever train speed or length. Would make more sense if hitachi drivers were told to use the pantograph on rear vehicles

 

[Philip]

Why only mention the 195s? The 196s and 197s are more or less the same train.

 

[Halish Railway]

The lack of luggage racks & grab handles in the vestibule is a serious oversight too.

 

[dp707]

I don’t think I’ve sampled them but apart from the annoying announcements etc I would think the same applies

196s and 197s that is

At least the 196/7s have inter unit gangways

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Having had a few recent rides on 195s and 331s I think they are turning into very decent trains.
Acceleration, legroom, power points, wifi that works, good aircon, informative PIS (with big front display of destination, unlike the useless gangwayed 15x types).
Not a perfect ride, but better than when they first appeared.
Seats are OK for an hour or so, are mostly aligned with windows, and the cabins are light and airy.
Brakes are a bit squealy, but they are on most new types of train.

 

[Neptune]

I can’t believe northern rail, ever evaluated these properly before ordering a large fleet...the caf designs are really bad. The list of flaws is endless Ride quality is appalling, it’s difficult to find a seat that aligns with windows, seats are typical of modern designs rock hard and too upright. Door operating buttons are confusing, screen messages and announcements are typically of northern rail....irritating. It’s as though they don’t want passengers to have a pleasant relaxing journey. Un face lifted 158s are far superior


Ps it’s not just CAF, could make similar criticisms of hitachi designs.....what an oversight to have pantographs on end vehicles

Ride quality isn‘t the greatest admittedly but I stood up on one riding home yesterday across plenty of point work and didn’t find it appalling. Just a bit livelier than other units.

The seats in the end sections of each coach align with the windows so just head there.

Seats are totally subjective as you’ll find out the more you look through the forum. I find them absolutely fine (6 foot, average build). The contoured base is an upgrade on the similar seats found on Thameslink. Upright is the best position for your back (as one who has had back problems in the past these seats are a blessing compared to the old 158 seats which encouraged you to slouch therefore causing pain). The only change I would make is changing to moquette on the seats which does have the effect of softening them up a bit.

What is confusing about the door buttons? Light up green = open, light up red = close, they also have the wording on them and are tactile.

Announcements are nothing to do with CAF.

With regards to pantograph positions what do you suggest for electric locomotives?

 

[dp707]

Acceleration is good but that’s all I can agree with. Wonder if the small diameter wheels affect ride quality.
TPE novas are better re window alignment

Neptune....agree with a lot of points but every one I have travelled on rides really badly over points etc....with banging noises...sounds like something on the bogies is about to fall off....yes the seats at the end do line up but on Novas most of them do line up. The problem with locomotives cannot be avoided but with multiple units you might as well use it to your advantage which hitachi haven’t done

 

[Neptune]

Acceleration is good but that’s all I can agree with. Wonder if the small diameter wheels affect ride quality.
TPE novas are better re window alignment

Which TPE nova fleet are you referring to? The Mk5A’s have appalling seat to window spacing in standard compared to the 195/331 fleet.

Neptune....agree with a lot of points but every one I have travelled on rides really badly over points etc....with banging noises...sounds like something on the bogies is about to fall off....yes the seats at the end do line up but on Novas most of them do line up. The problem with locomotives cannot be avoided but with multiple units you might as well use it to your advantage which hitachi haven’t done

Yes they are a bit lively at certain speeds, never denied it but I’d never call it appalling. The pacers were appalling over points and these are a definite improvement.

Once again, with regard to window alignment sit in the outer section of a coach and the problem is solved. The centre section isn’t amazing (I’m not a window gazer myself so am happy to sit in there) but they do have the stand back areas in the doorway knocking the alignment out (remember that these are dual purpose units, not express units like TPE). If it’s truly poor window alignment you’re looking for then look no further than the 150 or 319.

I have never in nearly 30 years working on the railway had an issue with where the pantograph is on the train. It’s really not an issue.

 

[DanNCL]

The problem with locomotives cannot be avoided but with multiple units you might as well use it to your advantage which hitachi haven’t done

Actually Hitachi very much have. Having a pantograph on both of the driving carriages means that on a 10 car formation (2x 5 car units) the pantographs raised are the ones at the very front and very rear of the formation, much further apart than they would be if the pantographs were located on intermediate coaches.

 

[dp707]

Which TPE nova fleet are you referring to? The Mk5A’s have appalling seat to window spacing in standard compared to the 195/331 fleet.


Yes they are a bit lively at certain speeds, never denied it but I’d never call it appalling. The pacers were appalling over points and these are a definite improvement.

Once again, with regard to window alignment sit in the outer section of a coach and the problem is solved. The centre section isn’t amazing (I’m not a window gazer myself so am happy to sit in there) but they do have the stand back areas in the doorway knocking the alignment out (remember that these are dual purpose units, not express units like TPE). If it’s truly poor window alignment you’re looking for then look no further than the 150 or 319.

I have never in nearly 30 years working on the railway had an issue with where the pantograph is on the train. It’s really not an issue.

The hitachi trains in the early days did have several entanglements with the ohle, whether these could have been avoided given more time to act I don’t know. The virgin drivers I have spoken to say the extra time has avoided disruption to ohl a few times

 

[XAM2175]

Which TPE nova fleet are you referring to? The Mk5A’s have appalling seat to window spacing in standard compared to the 195/331 fleet.

The 397s have virtually perfect alignment for all seats in standard.

 

[hwl]

If you notice pendolino pantographs are on inner vehicles....a very good reason for that...if the driver happens to be using the forward one ( its usual practice to use the rear one) there is time to lower it when a defect on the OHLE is noticed.

The pantos on end vehicles are to maximise the distance between pantographs (e.g. on 2x 5car the 1st and 10th vehicles) and reduce oscillation in the contact wire so there is better contract with the second pantograph and less fatigue in the OHLE. This is all now written into NR standards.

 

[jonnyfan]

Seats are totally subjective as you’ll find out the more you look through the forum. I find them absolutely fine (6 foot, average build). The contoured base is an upgrade on the similar seats found on Thameslink. Upright is the best position for your back (as one who has had back problems in the past these seats are a blessing compared to the old 158 seats which encouraged you to slouch therefore causing pain). The only change I would make is changing to moquette on the seats which does have the effect of softening them up a bit.

Moquette is on the way, from next month on-wards fitment is supposed to start. I hope as well that it will make the seats a little softer.

 

[Iskra]

The 195’s are better than leaky, draughty pacers with no legroom or tables or 150’s with no legroom, poor views and poor seating layouts.

 

[Neptune]

The 397s have virtually perfect alignment for all seats in standard.

I’m aware of that but the inference is that all Nova fleets have good alignment when the mk5a’s are quite the opposite.

 

[Watershed]

The ride quality is terrible, as with most other recent CAF stock. Even compared with something like a Hitachi class 385/80x (neither of which are exactly award winning in that department), the difference is very noticeable. It's better than a Pacer but that's not saying much!

The window seat alignment is indeed poor, but ultimately that's down to Northern's decisions about the seating layout. Window alignment is quite a low priority when designing a layout, perhaps understandably (capacity is much more important), although I'm sure it would have been possible to get better alignment if a bit more thought had been put into it.

The seats definitely feel uncomfortable and hard when you first sit on them, but I have to say, they're actually very ergonomic for longer journeys and the legroom is excellent. On shorter journeys I would still prefer something like the old 158 seats!

The door operating buttons aren't great, but the cack-handed method of operation is the far greater issue in that department. The trains have exceptionally wide doorways and quick doors - perfect for quick dwell times... yet it's all laid to waste by the 10-15 second wait for the guard to open their local door, step onto the platform, check the train is accommodated, and then release the rest of the doors. And what genius thought it would be a good idea to force the guard's local door to sound the hustle alarm before closing

The PIS is very good - when it works. It's certainly more unreliable than most systems, but the screens are big and quite well positioned, and they show the important information in large font. The connections list is also good, although it's a bit amusing that it doesn't filter out trains that go back where the train has just come from!

Overall, they're decent trains from a passenger perspective. It's just a shame about the many niggles - with a bit more attention to detail, they could have been class-leading.

 

[Wolfie]

The 397s have virtually perfect alignment for all seats in standard.

But, correct me if I'm wrong, aren't those built by the very same CAF whose designs dp707 says are "really bad"? Perhaps it is more a matter of accepting that rolling stock fit-out varies according to how it is going to be used.

I for one would be bloody unimpressed if l had to stand due to there being less seats because your window view was so important....

 

[Neptune]

The 195’s are better than leaky, draughty pacers with no legroom or tables or 150’s with no legroom, poor views and poor seating layouts.

Quite.

 

[quantinghome]

Overall, they're decent trains from a passenger perspective. It's just a shame about the many niggles - with a bit more attention to detail, they could have been class-leading.

I think that's fairer assessment than the thread title.

 

[Neptune]

I think that's fairer assessment than the thread title.

Yes it’s nice to see an eloquent post actually detailing the posters personal pros and cons rather than the usual ‘IT’S ALL RUBBISH’.

 

[quantinghome]

Yes it’s nice to see an eloquent post actually detailing the posters personal pros and cons rather than the usual ‘IT’S ALL RUBBISH’.

Ah, but if the thread title was "Class 195s pretty good but have some drawbacks which could have been sorted out with a bit more thought", we probably wouldn't be reading and commenting on it.

 

[Gaz55]

I was on the Leeds to Doncaster hourly last Sunday, 4 car 331. Sat at a table, my can of Pepsi kept doing the Hokey Cokey all over the table. I'm a complete layman when it comes to the ride of a train, but surely that isn't normal.

 

[Geeves]

I can’t believe northern rail, ever evaluated these properly before ordering a large fleet...the caf designs are really bad.

While they might be off in regards to some of the recent deliveries if you compare to what was running on the same jobs before its a 100% step up.

The Manchester to Sheffield stopper for example was a 142. Now its a 3 car airconditioned modern unit with all the bells and whistles.

 

[GC class B1]

I was on the Leeds to Doncaster hourly last Sunday, 4 car 331. Sat at a table, my can of Pepsi kept doing the Hokey Cokey all over the table. I'm a complete layman when it comes to the ride of a train, but surely that isn't normal.

I have been judging the ride of individual vehicles for the most of the last 50 years. Ride quality is very subjective and dependent upon the track conditions and other factors. The overall ride quality has at least as many elements as the modes of movement of the vehicle body and bogie. As an example lateral movement wil cause objects to move across the table and makes keeping your balance walking along the vehicles more difficult. Vertical movement may cause drinks to spill. I don’t notice many people complaining about poor ride and the expectation is probably what matters as we are used to poor ride on some vehicles in particular Pacers.

 

[richa2002]

Seats are totally subjective as you’ll find out the more you look through the forum. I find them absolutely fine (6 foot, average build). The contoured base is an upgrade on the similar seats found on Thameslink. Upright is the best position for your back (as one who has had back problems in the past these seats are a blessing compared to the old 158 seats which encouraged you to slouch therefore causing pain). The only change I would make is changing to moquette on the seats which does have the effect of softening them up a bit.

The only thing I'd ask of those who think ironing board type seats are fine and perhaps even beneficial to those with back trouble; do you have similar in your living room? If not, why not?

 

[Neptune]

The only thing I'd ask of those who think ironing board type seats are fine and perhaps even beneficial to those with back trouble; do you have similar in your living room? If not, why not?

Yes I have a high backed chair to prevent me from slouching. Since I started using them a few years ago most of my issues have cleared up and my prescribed painkiller use for my back issues has reduced to near zero.