1st Class Extension - Haywards Heath to London Bridge

[Long Standin]

Hi,

I hope I'm not being really cheeky with this enquiry but I'm seeing if there are any 'cheat' ways to upgrade to a 1st class ticket. I am due to start a new job and it will mean travelling earlier in the day. Based on previous experience this means that I will struggle for a seat. I will be travelling from Haywards Heath to London Bridge between 07.15 to 07.45. I wondered if it was possible to buy a top up to my season ticket (standard annual gold card with Southern) that would enable me to sit in first class but not pay all the way to London Bridge (for example to Norwood Junction or Crystal Palace). I wondered this because I used to live in Crystal Palace and there was no first class seating option from there to London Bridge.

I am sure this isn't an option but would be grateful for any expert thoughts. If this isn't possible is there any other way (beyond paying full price for first class - despite the new job I won't be able to stretch to it)?

Many thanks,

Long Standin

 

[LexyBoy]

I very much doubt it - Season tickets are much more logically priced than single/return tickets so there are far fewer anomalies to exploit.

Your Gold Card allows a first class upgrade for a small price (£5?), which is valid for journeys anywhere within the Network area... except that covered by your Season's validity! (Also I expect only after 10am).

It's possible that splitting might help - 1st class fares vary much more than standard according to the standard of 1st class accommodation available (for example, Reading-London first is 222% the price of standard, compared to 160% for your route). I'll have a look.

 

[Long Standin]

That's very kind. Thank you.

I looked into it myself and there is no first class ticket available on national rail enquiries from either Crystal palace or Norwood Junction.

I should highlight that my train doesn't stop at these stations. It travels Haywards Heath - East Croydon - London Bridge. I am hoping that if I buy a first class ticket beyond East Croydon (i.e. within London travel zones) any ticket inspector will not ask me to vacate my seat.

I accept it is probably not possible but I thought I would see what more knowledgeable people thought.

Thanks.

 

[southerner2174]

First class is declassified on all Southern metro routes which is why metro stations will not offer a first class option.
As you will be travelling in on a longer distance service where first class is offered for the whole journey you will need a ticket to cover you for the entire trip to London Bridge.
If you only buy a first class ticket to East Croydon you will be expected to vacate the 1st class area for the remainder of the trip to London Bridge otherwise end up being liable to be charged a penalty fare.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

With respect, if the OP wishes to travel first class from Haywards Heath to London Bridge, on a through train with first class accommodation, then the OP should purchase, in advance of travelling, the appropriate first class supplement/upgrade ticket for the entire journey that they are making.

On arrival at East Croydon, they certainly shouldn't continue to occupy first class accommodation on the final section of the route, i.e. from East Croydon to London Bridge, if the first class supplement/upgrade ticket held is only from Haywards Heath to East Croydon, otherwise, the OP can expect, at the very least, to be Penalty Fared.

 

[LexyBoy]

I couldn't find anywhere to split where it's cheaper - after all, it is direct on the mainline, so no obvious difference in service where there might be an advantageous 1st fare, so the cheapest ticket seems to be £4928 annual (point to point, FCC only), or £5084 with Travelcard (also FCC only).£5376 or £5960 with TC.

As others have said, to travel in FC you must have a valid FC ticket for the section you're travelling in (unless FC is declassified, which it isn't on your train).

You could split your Seasons at e.g. Norwood Junction, but (apart from costing more anyway), you would have to travel on trains which stop there (i.e. change at East Croydon).

You may find that certain trains are quieter, or there's a quieter part of them (probably towards the front), once you start travelling regularly.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

... the cheapest ticket seems to be £4928 annual (point to point, FCC only), or £5084 with Travelcard (also FCC only)...

Don't think that there are any FCC services from Haywards Heath to London Bridge departing between 07.15 and 07.45. (Certain peak hour FCC services don't call at London Bridge to lack of available train paths).

 

[LexyBoy]

Oops, learn something new every day! I didn't know Southern regularly ran into LBG, thought it was all FCC!

 

[wintonian]

You can excess the season by paying the difference between the appropriate (cheapest ticket available for immediate travel) standard fare and the first anytime fare or a new first class ticket whichever is cheaper.

Interestingly it seems a peak excess from a standard anytime is going to be cheaper than a excess from off peak to the anytime fare.

And if splitting with a season ticket the train does not need to stop at the station where you change from one ticket to the other unless you combine more than 1 season ticket or a leisure pass valid for a minimum of 3 days in 7 or 7 consecutive days.

excess fares

 

[richardderby]

ALL trains at that time are southern. the 07.31 is a non stop service (calling only E.Croydon), and takes 42 minutes, the fastest northbound. when i used to commute from Brighton, there was usually seats at Haywards Heath as they were 12 car units...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

ALL trains at that time are southern. the 07.31 is a non stop service (calling only E.Croydon), and takes 42 minutes, the fastest northbound. when i used to commute from Brighton, there was usually seats at Haywards Heath as they were 12 car units...

Usually full and standing in Standard these days, which presumably is why the OP wants to travel 1st Class.

 

[clagmonster]

To clarify, may I ask, do you currently hold a season ticket. If so, which journey and class is it for?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

To clarify, may I ask, do you currently hold a season ticket. If so, which journey and class is it for?

It would appear that the OP has a STD class annual season ticket between Haywards Heath and London Terminals (Route Any Permitted).

 

[Long Standin]

Thanks to everybody for your thoughts. Like I said I am being cheeky. I do have a standard pass but you cannot get a seat during those hours. The extra cost to a 1st class ticket is too much for me. I just wondered if there was an obvious option I was missing. (Current thought is to upgrade to 1st class to East Croydon then run in to standard as people get off).

There is no FCC at that time to London Bridge. I am sure you know the reasons for that better than I (I am new to the area) but it is unfortunate that their 1st class tickets are a grand cheaper. Even better, they have seats free in standard as they don't travel through London Bridge.

I know you should look before you leap, but my current job enables me to travel at a time when seats are available. I hadn't considered that a standard season ticket at 3,500 wouldn't enable me to travel on a seat!

Thanks again.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Where exactly in the London Bridge area do you work, and what time do you have to be there by?

 

[Long Standin]

I work in the City near to the Gherkin. Unfortunately City Thameslink is too far away to be viable. As far as I'm aware any other journey would involve tube or bus which adds quite a bit onto the cost (i.e. getting the train to Victoria then getting the tube).

The new job will require me to arrive between 08.30 to 09.00. Smack bang in the middle of rush hour. My current job is 09.00 to 09.30 and that extra 30 minutes makes all the difference with regards to seat availability.

 

[LexyBoy]

Another thought - the £5084 "FCC Only" Travelcard would allow you to change at East Croydon for a service to London Bridge, or change at Blackfriars for London Bridge (train/tube/bus/walk). It would take a bit longer, granted, but you'd have a seat at least to East Croydon, and probably thereafter too.

I'm not sure whether a FC Travelcard includes FC travel on all services in London, or only those on the route into London - can someone confirm?

edit: train direct to Farringdon then tube (across the platform) to Liverpool St could be quickest.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Agreed. Unfortunately, even if you travelled a bit earlier, the 0713 Southern departure from Haywards Heath to London Bridge (arriving 0801) is almost as busy as the 0731 (arriving 0813). And the later 0754 and 0803 departures don't get into London Bridge until 0841 and 0803 respectively, and are often late anyway! Changing at East Croydon isn't much of a fun option either.

And as you are probably already aware, there are no Thameslink services from Haywards Heath calling at London Bridge (Mon-Fri), after the 0630 departure, until 0823 (arriving 0909) which is too late for you.

Have you considered the 0723 Thameslink departure from Haywards Heath, arriving London Blackfriars at 0821 and walking in from there? (= 25/30 min walk).

 

[wintonian]

You can't excess a ticket only part of the way you would have to buy a new ticket at £16.60 for a first day single from Haywards Heath to East Croydon and use you season back and for the rest of the trip.

The excess from your season in the morning peak one way would I think be the difference in the coast of a SDS £18.10 and FDS £23.90 route; any permitted making £5.80 for the excess.

 

[Long Standin]

I have found something on the Sourthern website which is of interest (although still a bit pricey). It's a first class ticket from haywards Heath to St. Pancras and doesn't state 'FCC Only'.

It's 4,928 and states the following when you select 'info':
(Does anybody know if it is a viable prospect to allow me to travel on the Southern services to London Bridge?)

Season 1st Class
Discounts: Children (Aged 5 to 15 inclusive): 50% discount. Up to two children under five can travel free with each fare paying passenger. The Passengers' Charter of each Train Company gives performance targets and details of the discounts available for Season Ticket renewals if the time keeping or reliability of the train service falls below set standards. The Train Companies will publicise details of any Season Ticket discounts.Refunds: Any refund is calculated from the date the Season Ticket was handed in. It will be the difference between the price you paid and the cost of a ticket or tickets for the period for which you have actually used the ticket, plus an administration charge. Because of the discounts on longer term Season Tickets, refunds are not made pro rata to the periods beforeafter surrender and Annual Season Tickets have no refund value after about 10 12 months. For this reason we recommend that employers' Annual Season Ticket loan schemes are set up so that reimbursements are made in 10 equal monthly payments with two 'free' months at the end of the year, rather than in 12 equal monthly payments. There must be at least seven days remaining on a Monthly Season Ticket or at least three days remaining on a 7 Day Season Ticket to obtain a refund (although on some 7 Day Season Tickets there may be no refund value after three days of use, dependent upon the relevant Standard Day Return price. In cases of illness, the refund can be backdated if you produce suitable documentary evidence for a period before you hand in your ticket, provided that you have not started travelling again using your Season Ticket since your illness. We do not give refunds or allow Season Tickets to be extended for periods of non-use, for example holidays. We do not normally give refunds on duplicate Season Tickets although consideration will be given if you can give written evidence of redundancy, prolonged illness or similar circumstances or if the original ticket is recovered and returned to the issuing ticket office within one month of its loss. Please ask at the ticket office for more details.Changes: Please buy the appropriate additional ticket at the ticket office before you travel, if your Season Ticket has expired, does not cover your journey in full, has been left behind, or is for Standard Class accommodation but you wish to travel First Class.Availability: Please note that on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays some Train Companies do not offer their usual weekday First Class at seat service.Break of journey: A break of journey is allowed with this ticket.Validity: There are no time restrictions on when you can travel with this ticket.Train operator: All operators
Booking deadline: You may be able to buy your Season Ticket before the day it is due to start. However, to avoid misuse of season tickets, they can only be purchased a short period of time beforehand.

Thanks for everybody's help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, it's come through poorly. I should have edited. Key information for me is that Break of journey: A break of journey is allowed with this ticket.

 

[LexyBoy]

I have found something on the Sourthern website which is of interest (although still a bit pricey). It's a first class ticket from haywards Heath to St. Pancras and doesn't state 'FCC Only'.

It's 4,928 and states the following when you select 'info':
(Does anybody know if it is a viable prospect to allow me to travel on the Southern services to London Bridge?)

This fare has come up before. Yes, it would be valid via London Bridge on any TOC's services, as long as you're on a permitted route (which you would be). It's priced the same as FCC's London Terminals ticket because you're assumed to be using FCC since they're the only company running to St Pancreas.

 

[wintonian]

AFAIK seasons allways allow break of journey

That St. Pancras season is route; not underground, but that makes no diffrence if you are going to London Bridge.

 

[OwlMan]

AFAIK seasons allways allow break of journey

That St. Pancras season is route; not underground, but that makes no diffrence if you are going to London Bridge.

But remember that is not valid to Victoria like an London Terminals ticket.

Peter

 

[LexyBoy]

But remember that is not valid to Victoria like an London Terminals ticket.

Or is it??

*ducks*

Also, just to clarify my FCC Only Travelcard suggestion, it would be valid on any train from East Croydon to London Bridge including Southern services. I don’t know the frequency of service ECR-LBG though so it might not be practical. It would also depend on how useful the Travelcard element would be.

 

[Long Standin]

Many thanks to everybody. I'll have a think about the options and start saving.

 

[yorkie]

Or is it??

*ducks*

That topic does not suggest that the ticket is valid to Victoria, however it is valid to Clapham Junction. The question is then whether or not you are able to use a Travelcard season from Clapham Jn to Victoria, the answer of course is yes, providing the train calls (so no getting Gatwick Express services that go through non-stop), and the only remaining confusion is the debate over whether you are required to touch in on a Travelcard in such a circumstance, the answer is that you are not required to, and you can remain on the train.

So, no, that Season isn't valid to Victoria and the thread linked to explores the possibility of combining such a season with a Travelcard season for onward travel to Victoria.

 

[LexyBoy]

That topic does not suggest that the ticket is valid to Victoria, however it is valid to Clapham Junction. The question is then whether or not you are able to use a Travelcard season from Clapham Jn to Victoria, the answer of course is yes, providing the train calls (so no getting Gatwick Express services that go through non-stop), and the only remaining confusion is the debate over whether you are required to touch in on a Travelcard in such a circumstance, the answer is that you are not required to, and you can remain on the train.

So, no, that Season isn't valid to Victoria and the thread linked to explores the possibility of combining such a season with a Travelcard season for onward travel to Victoria.

I'll admit I haven't fully re-read that thread, but I recall that the issue of “Not Underground” not being a routeing was brought up. It could therefore be argued that since transfer between stations by foot is allowed, and that ECR-STP via VIC is a valid route, it should be valid to go to VIC and then complete the journey by foot. The logic being that there’s no routeing restriction (as in, a routeing point which must be passed through or avoided) – I don’t claim to be knowledgeable enough to be sure on this though, as although “Underground” is not a routeing point, there are plenty of other restrictions advertised under “Route” which don’t relate directly to a geographical route. There seem to be certain pairs of stations between which walking is a recognised route, but which these are isn’t in the public domain AFAIK.

I for one wouldn’t like to try arguing this one every day at Victoria in any case . (And apologies for dragging this thread further OT)

I wonder if enough people cotton onto this anomaly, the fare will be changed to "FCC Only"?