2022 Conservative Leadership Election - Liz Truss chosen as party leader (and subsequent reshuffle)

[Yew]

There is common belief/acceptance that a number of Tories joined the Labour membership just to get Corbyn in, seeing him as an easy opponent.

I've never heard of that before, do you have any evidence for it?

If I was Labour, I would wait until this contest is over and then stand on a firmly anti-Truss platform, and puts clear water between themselves and the Tories - but from a centre-left rather than hard-left perspective. A party that fights reactionary right-wing politics. A party that stands up for those who want to see good public services, who prefer public spending to tax cuts, who want to see the unemployed treated with respect and have appropriate benefits, who don't want to demonise the "woke" and immigrants, who support immigration from the EU and better relations with the EU, who believe that family status is irrelevant, and so on. All, in my view, solid centre-left policies.

Unfortunately anything further left that centre-right neoliberalism will be misrepresented by the media.

 

[Gloster]

And don't get me started on phrases such as "family values". Not everyone has a family. And if you don't have a family, it doesn't make you a second-class citizen.

‘Family values’ are starting to move the same way as in the US, although they are still a long way behind. Starting with old-fashioned white, Christian, Anglo-Saxon values, they are beginning to move towards attitudes hostile towards any opinions that are liberal and tolerant of those outside your mirror image. It hasn’t gone far yet, but it shouldn’t go anywhere.

I've never heard of that before, do you have any evidence for it?

At the time a few known Conservative supporters did claim to have joined Labour and been able to vote. How many joined but kept silent wasn’t known, but probably not enough to skew the election. The attitude was mainly one of ‘if they can’t run their own election, how can they run the country?’

 

[Yew]

At the time a few known Conservative supporters did claim to have joined Labour and been able to vote. How many joined but kept silent wasn’t known, but probably not enough to skew the election. The attitude was mainly one of ‘if they can’t run their own election, how can they run the country?’

Were these confirmed? Unsubstantiated claims are worth the evidence they rely on. Given that the whole point of these policies was to allow a wider cross section of society to have input, even if they are true, it sounds like the goal was met. Overall, it sounds like a non-storey that the papers fabricated out of nothing significant.

 

[Typhoon]

At the time a few known Conservative supporters did claim to have joined Labour and been able to vote. How many joined but kept silent wasn’t known, but probably not enough to skew the election. The attitude was mainly one of ‘if they can’t run their own election, how can they run the country?’

The #ToriesforCorbyn campaign, spearheaded by the ever-charming, breast-ogling Toby Young, is urging Conservatives to join the Labour Party and vote for Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn, these ardent Tory tweeters believe, will offer such an outlandish vision for the future of Britain that the Labour Party will inexorably receive a well-deserved thumping in the 2020 general election. They are so certain that the electorate will admonish Corbyn's 'radical' policies, in fact, that some even predict the total destruction of the Labour Party and the emergence of the final stage in Britain's political teleology: complete Tory dominance.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ioan-marc-jones/jeremy-corbyn_b_7626906.html
There is also:

For those who do wish to give it a go, it's best to refrain from saying - as the Telegraph suggests - that you are supporting Labour in order to 'condemn Labour to years in the political wilderness'. You will also need to cleanse your social media of any other party affiliation, and brush up on your Labour knowledge as some applicants could be subjected to a short phone interview.

from: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/labour-s-new-donor-toriesforcorbyn
There is more stuff in The Spectator but I have run out of my free reads.
There is also something on Guido Fawkes website https://order-order.com/2015/06/17/toby-crunches-tories4corbyn-numbers/

I wonder if Labour are doing the wisest thing by keeping quiet. If your enemy is fighting internally and making blunder after blunder, don’t give them any opportunity to unify by turning on you.

I would endorse that. Something has to go on the front page and there are only so many times they can use 'Phew, what a scorcher'. Unfortunately the candidates scattergun approach to policies is leading to more own goals than direct hits. Labour shadows must be working hard to devise a dossier of these own goals, not just observing from the sidelines.

 

[AlterEgo]

And don't get me started on phrases such as "family values". Not everyone has a family. And if you don't have a family, it doesn't make you a second-class citizen.

who believe that family status is irrelevant, and so on. All, in my view, solid centre-left policies.

Solid centre left policies prioritise the family as a unit of support and nourishment. Social democracies tend to be very family-friendly.

 

[Busaholic]

At the time a few known Conservative supporters did claim to have joined Labour and been able to vote. How many joined but kept silent wasn’t known, but probably not enough to skew the election. The attitude was mainly one of ‘if they can’t run their own election, how can they run the country?’

You could become an Affiliate Member (or somesuch) for £3 and then have a vote for both leader and deputy. My wife did this, though never renewed. I believe you had to declare you were not a member of another party, which she wasn't.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Solid centre left policies prioritise the family as a unit of support and nourishment. Social democracies tend to be very family-friendly.

I think you're correct. An important reason behind 'family-friendly' policies is that the family unit - when it's well functioning - provides a huge level of support to individuals: A source of security, companionship, housing, emotional support, etc. For many people that is vastly important to their well being. And when family units break down, you end up with much of that support having to be provided (much less efficiently and more impersonally) by the state and paid for out of taxation - and there's a good argument that that puts more pressure on public finances and lowers our overall standard of living. To mind, that gives a good argument for the Government to do what it can to encourage/support families (while also respecting the right of people to choose to live independently of a family unit if that is their choice).

 

[TwoYellas]

Well I certainly don't envy the winner of this leadership contest. The countries on fire, everyone's on strike, the incumbent PM might as well be on strike.

But I'm sure the winner will, as soon as they take their place.....prop up the corporation!

 

[Lost property]

It's very kind and thoughtful of Ms Truss to confirm her high esteem for the UK population.

Liz Truss accused of branding British workers lazy in leaked audio

The Tory leadership hopeful is accused by critics of branding workers lazy in leaked audio.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[AlterEgo]

It's very kind and thoughtful of Ms Truss to confirm her high esteem for the UK population.

Liz Truss accused of branding British workers lazy in leaked audio

The Tory leadership hopeful is accused by critics of branding workers lazy in leaked audio.

www.bbc.co.uk

Amusing to see some people suddenly offended at this having said exactly the same thing themselves about their fellow countrymen for six years and professing to favour Eastern European builders, cafe staff, hoteliers, cleaners etc.

(Not a dig at you btw! A general point!)

 

[Typhoon]

It's very kind and thoughtful of Ms Truss to confirm her high esteem for the UK population.

Liz Truss accused of branding British workers lazy in leaked audio

The Tory leadership hopeful is accused by critics of branding workers lazy in leaked audio.

www.bbc.co.uk

I've heard responses to that argument along the lines that we lag behind our competitors in terms of the use of up to date technology. (Maybe not the Chinese, there is something rather different about the way their government views its citizens.) A phrase comes to mind. "Give us the tools, and we will finish the job". If Ms Truss has not heard it, I am sure our current PM has.

 

[brad465]

It's very kind and thoughtful of Ms Truss to confirm her high esteem for the UK population.

Liz Truss accused of branding British workers lazy in leaked audio

The Tory leadership hopeful is accused by critics of branding workers lazy in leaked audio.

www.bbc.co.uk

10 years ago she co-authored a book called "Britannia Unchained" (along with Raab, Patel, Kwarteng and Chris Skidmore) which included a line about British workers being "the worst idlers in the world". If anything this statement is just reinforcing that.

 

[Lost property]

Amusing to see some people suddenly offended at this having said exactly the same thing themselves about their fellow countrymen for six years and professing to favour Eastern European builders, cafe staff, hoteliers, cleaners etc.

(Not a dig at you btw! A general point!)

Actually, the offence is caused by a potential future PM being openly disparaging and disdainful about the UK population, also known as voters, which seems to have escaped her notice.

I happily admit, that, in contrast to the work ethic of the more than welcome as far as I'm concerned, migrant workers from the EU, there is certainly a Brit demographic who are minimalists shall we say and for whom work in some sectors has long been considered beneath their expectations....however, in this case, the comments by Ms Truss are not directed at this group but appear to be very much directed at the working population of the UK collectively ....which is a very different matter.

 

[jfollows]

In my opinion, the poor quality of management in the UK, caused by a lack of training and appointment of people unsuitable for the job as part of their career progression path, has far more to do with the poor "quality" of the UK workforce and its relatively poor productivity. Other countries have the same poor management problem as well, of course, so there are probably other reasons too, but I don't view the "average worker" as lazy or whatever it was that Liz Truss said about them.
It's not about poor workers themselves but an inability to give them appropriate work and to motivate them appropriately, which is down to poor management to a large extent.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Actually, the offence is caused by a potential future PM being openly disparaging and disdainful about the UK population, also known as voters, which seems to have escaped her notice.

I took the trouble to follow the link and listen to the recording of her comments. It seems very obvious to me that she's talking about the general culture in the UK as opposed to the general culture in other countries, and is very definitely not trying to claim that everyone British somehow lazy or something.

I realise that anecdotes are not data and all that, but my own experience in London, having known people of a variety of nationalities, is that many of those who are not British do have stronger work ethics than many people I know who are British (That is an aggregate - obviously there are exceptions. And I also appreciate there may be some bias there because people with stronger work ethics may also be more likely to do things like move to a foreign country). I'm thinking particularly of several Chinese friends of mine, all of whom push themselves and try to improve themselves to a far greater extent than most people I know. So it seems to me that it may be worth at least considering the possibility that there may be some truth in Liz Truss's comments, rather than just instantly taking offence at them.

 

[Busaholic]

I took the trouble to follow the link and listen to the recording of her comments. It seems very obvious to me that she's talking about the general culture in the UK as opposed to the general culture in other countries, and is very definitely not trying to claim that everyone British somehow lazy or something.

I realise that anecdotes are not data and all that, but my own experience in London, having known people of a variety of nationalities, is that many of those who are not British do have stronger work ethics than many people I know who are British (That is an aggregate - obviously there are exceptions. And I also appreciate there may be some bias there because people with stronger work ethics may also be more likely to do things like move to a foreign country). I'm thinking particularly of several Chinese friends of mine, all of whom push themselves and try to improve themselves to a far greater extent than most people I know. So it seems to me that it may be worth at least considering the possibility that there may be some truth in Liz Truss's comments, rather than just instantly taking offence at them.

Kit Malthouse, who's some form of Minister, was asked on the Today programme this morning why Johnson had had two holidays one after the other. Unlike the previous situation when he'd have spouted some b/s he did at least reply ''you'd have to ask him.'' The message comes down from the top - why work hard when you can wing it all your life and get by more than admirably?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

10 years ago she co-authored a book called "Britannia Unchained" (along with Raab, Patel, Kwarteng and Chris Skidmore) which included a line about British workers being "the worst idlers in the world". If anything this statement is just reinforcing that.

Shes playing to the 160k people that are going to vote for her and this sort of language appeals to white middle class pensioners.

 

[Busaholic]

Shes playing to the 160k people that are going to vote for her and this sort of language appeals to white middle class pensioners.

Among the 160k perhaps, but not all such pensioners I can assure you.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Among the 160k perhaps, but not all such pensioners I can assure you.

Of course but her whole strategy currently is to get elected by hook or crook what she actually does if she wins I suspect will be significantly watered down. Personally i hope Sunak pulls the rug from underneath her but the omens don't look good.

Oh and by the way both of them are no hopers but one has to go for the least worse not that im a member.

 

[Gloster]

Among the 160k perhaps, but not all such pensioners I can assure you.

Agreed, but I suspect that the ‘white, comfortably-off, middle-aged or elderly’ group is the single largest one in that 160,000. And also one that is more likely to vote.

Of course but her whole strategy currently is to get elected by hook or crook what she actually does if she wins I suspect will be significantly watered down.

What worries me is that I think it is possible that she might go ahead and carry out what she has promised. Or at least those things that aren’t mutually impossible due to her U-turns.

 

[TwoYellas]

Just had a thought. I've got that little faith in the voting public that I believe it's a distinct possibility that we could have a Truss/Trump 'special relationship' in a couple of years.

I'll have to switch off the coverage of their first meeting as the prospect of them holding hands will be just way too much!

 

[nw1]

Amusing to see some people suddenly offended at this having said exactly the same thing themselves about their fellow countrymen for six years and professing to favour Eastern European builders, cafe staff, hoteliers, cleaners etc.

(Not a dig at you btw! A general point!)

I suspect the people complaining about Truss are not the same people who may have accused other British people of being lazy.

The reasons many of us favour liberal immigration policies is not because we think our fellow British citizens are lazy. In my case, and I suspect that of many others, it's about freedom of choice.

I took the trouble to follow the link and listen to the recording of her comments. It seems very obvious to me that she's talking about the general culture in the UK as opposed to the general culture in other countries, and is very definitely not trying to claim that everyone British somehow lazy or something.

I realise that anecdotes are not data and all that, but my own experience in London, having known people of a variety of nationalities, is that many of those who are not British do have stronger work ethics than many people I know who are British (That is an aggregate - obviously there are exceptions. And I also appreciate there may be some bias there because people with stronger work ethics may also be more likely to do things like move to a foreign country). I'm thinking particularly of several Chinese friends of mine, all of whom push themselves and try to improve themselves to a far greater extent than most people I know. So it seems to me that it may be worth at least considering the possibility that there may be some truth in Liz Truss's comments, rather than just instantly taking offence at them.

But for someone who seems to be wrapping themselves in the flag of patriotism, it's not a good idea to make unsubstantiated and generalised comments about the supposed work culture of their own country and work ethic of its citizens. It smacks of hypocrisy to me.

Someone like Truss is all too happy to sing the praises of things like Brexit, but also, it appears, is quite happy to bash aspects of British culture when it suits her.

Perhaps it's the case that the cultures she seems to think are "better" over-work their citizens? And that's not a good thing: we are not machines, private life and free time are deeply valuable. We're not just cogs in the wheel built to serve a country or company.

It doesn't make her look good. Particularly when (I suspect) most of us have done more worthwhile work in our lives than she has ever done. She just seems to pontificate, tell us all how to live our lives, and inconsistently jump from one point of view to another, depending on what's currently fashionable. I can't imagine Truss volunteering to do some hard work within a country whose work culture she sings the praises of!

 

[Berliner]

I suspect the people complaining about Truss are not the same people who may have accused other British people of being lazy.

The reasons many of us favour liberal immigration policies is not because we think our fellow British citizens are lazy. In my case, and I suspect that of many others, it's about freedom of choice.



But for someone who seems to be wrapping themselves in the flag of patriotism, it's not a good idea to make unsubstantiated and generalised comments about the supposed work culture of their own country and work ethic of its citizens. It smacks of hypocrisy to me.

Someone like Truss is all too happy to sing the praises of things like Brexit, but also, it appears, is quite happy to bash aspects of British culture when it suits her.

Perhaps it's the case that the cultures she seems to think are "better" over-work their citizens? And that's not a good thing: we are not machines, private life and free time are deeply valuable. We're not just cogs in the wheel built to serve a country or company.

It doesn't make her look good. Particularly when (I suspect) most of us have done more worthwhile work in our lives than she has ever done. She just seems to pontificate, tell us all how to live our lives, and inconsistently jump from one point of view to another, depending on what's currently fashionable. I can't imagine Truss volunteering to do some hard work within a country whose work culture she sings the praises of!

I think we can all see where the tories are taking us next. Not only is Truss coming out with this nonsense, we also have the transport minister saying its apparently archaic to have rest day working a voluntary thing. We all know their attitude towards strikers too. And this is all before they even get to work on the rather menacing sounding British Bill of rights.

I don't think people realise quite what hell this lot want to unleash on the workers of the UK.

Another thing. It's OK for a random forum member or Joe public to have whatever view they like about workers in the UK. For a high ranking member of government and likely next PM to not only have, but openly state those views is a completely different matter and everyone can see the two are not at all comparable.

 

[Lost property]

Meanwhile, it appears Sunak gets confused as to his eating out habits...which is quite understandable when you want, desperately, to be PM but being a millionaire who "feels your pain", has to somehow con people into believing he's just like everybody else...and fails miserably in the attempt to do so...

Rishi Sunak reveals favourite McDonald’s food … which no longer exists

Former chancellor talks about favourite breakfast meal, which went off menu in 2020

www.theguardian.com

 

[AlterEgo]

Meanwhile, it appears Sunak gets confused as to his eating out habits...which is quite understandable when you want, desperately, to be PM but being a millionaire who "feels your pain", has to somehow con people into believing he's just like everybody else...and fails miserably in the attempt to do so...

Rishi Sunak reveals favourite McDonald’s food … which no longer exists

Former chancellor talks about favourite breakfast meal, which went off menu in 2020

www.theguardian.com

I’ve never understood why politicians try to be “normal people”. Sunak is even further out of touch than Truss is, which is saying something.

 

[Mag_seven]

This contest has gone on far too long - a three week period when they whittled down the numbers to two followed by a two week period to select the leader should have been suffice.

 

[Falcon1200]

Meanwhile, it appears Sunak gets confused as to his eating out habits...

Maybe he should just have tried eating a bacon roll in public ?.......

 

[Cowley]

This contest has gone on far too long - a three week period when they whittled down the numbers to two followed by a two week period to select the leader should have been suffice.

Completely agree. All it seems to have done is cause more damage to their reputations.

 

[Lost property]

Completely agree. All it seems to have done is cause more damage to their reputations.

Thus proving every cloud does have a silver lining...

 

[Busaholic]

Completely agree. All it seems to have done is cause more damage to their reputations.

But at the end of it we are still landed with one of these two to 'lead' us 'til that glorious day when we have the possibility of voting their party out if sense prevails.