Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. Israel has no choice. Hamas have made it overly clear: if Israel don't kill them, they will kill Israelis in number. They can't wipe out Hamas without incurring collateral casualties, whether those are Palestinian people or indeed their own citizens - the captives who were taken. Whether anyone would be happy to have their home destroyed or not is irrelevant.
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2023 Israel - Hamas war
- Thread starter GRALISTAIR
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They need to comply with international law and UN resolutions.
Yes there is no easy solution, and yes I agree that Israel has given up and has no intention of doing any of the right things and therefore there is no foreseeable end to the conflict.
Not really; you are arguing in bad faith.
Over the course of the conflict the state of Israel has made sure that the number of deaths on the Palestinian side is far higher. The actions of terrorists does not justify oppressing a large population of millions of people and refusing to adhere to international law and UN resolutions.
The part in bold is the only part that is actually correct; the more each side tries to hurt the other, the more anger there will be on the other side.
The idea that you can wipe out Hamas by intensifying attacks is utterly absurd and demonstrates your argument is deeply flawed.
It is relevant because you are clearly not being truthful if you claim you'd be content for that to happen to you; it demonstrates how your argument holds no water.
If who did what?
Have you actually read what was posted upthread?
Is anyone suggesting one simple thing could make everything OK? or is that something you've just made up?
Yeah, it's just heartbreaking.
Whilst I am generally pro Israel, I just find it awful how there's just no end to the conflict. I think peace was so close in the late 90s and early 00s but now it just seems so far away. The Palestinians are in an awful position, but also Israel is in a constant fight for survival. 150,000 rockets are pointed at it from Hezbollah in Lebanon.
No one really has any idea of realistically how it can end.
End the settlements in the West Bank and lift the blockade on Gaza? It'd show good faith at least...
Sure - nobody is disputing this.
Yes - sometimes a warning has been provided and sometimes requisite time has been allowed. Other times it hasn't. Surely you don't deny that?
I'm afraid that it is when you know, beyond a doubt, that the building is hundreds of unarmed people's home. Furthermore the rubble will unavoidably land on the surrounding streets and be projected sideways into the surrounding buildings, because of the type of munitions chosen by the Israeli bombers. It's unavoidable that death and serious injury will occur to people in the next block and standing a street over - indeed there are confirmed reports of this. Surely you don't deny that? And that the IDF know that is the consequence of ordering the bombing? The commanders are plainly guilty of war crimes because they've targeted a building they know to be occupied by mostly non-combatants, and use force vastly in excess of that required to demobilise armed combatants, and into a densely populated civilian area. By definition, that's a war crime.
I don't think lifting the blockade on Gaza would help, especially judging from what's just happened. I do agree r.e the settlements.
Herefordian
Member
I've already said I agree this whole situation is tragic and unacceptable. For those on both sides.
However, it is Hamas who have put the lives and homes of those they claim to represent at risk in the first place.
These buildings would not have been destroyed if Hamas did not use them as bases, like the barbarian cowards they are.
It is frankly, a complete and utter tragic mess.
Solely? You're sure of that? So Hamas forced Netanyahu and his ministers to order these bombings in this particular way? You're quite certain they had no other choices? And that they didn't view the lives of the unarmed non-combatants as simply the sad but necessary sacrifice for them to achieve their economic and strategic objectives? You're sure?
Don't get me wrong I believe that the Israeli soldiers and command mostly regret the loss of civilian life. But would you not say that they're doing it because it advantages them so enormously to let more Palestinians die, and they know they'll get away with it without being prosecuted for it?
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While each side acts this way, it will never end, but one side is wealthy and the other is deeply oppressed and that is the root cause. If the root cause is never going to be addressed the conflict will be perpetual.
If a population of millions of people is oppressed by a wealthy state, who denies that population any right to form their own state, then a proportion of those people are - history will tell us - sadly going to resort to terrorism. I am not claiming any equivalence however such tragic concequences have occured in other conflicts and continue to do so.
I was thinking of what to say in response to this, but @Starmill did an excellent job:
You have worded this better than I could have done.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
In the major conflicts between a conglomeration of Arab States and Israel since 1948, Israel was fighting not just a war on normal terms, but to defend itself as an entity, with certain Arab leaders especially in the earlier conflicts stating their aim was to "wipe Israel off the map of the Middle East". Having lost millions of Jews to the death camps a few short years before the state of Israel was established, it was obvious that Israel would do all in its power to prevent a second genocide.
Do you not realise that the more aggression there is from one side, the more hatred will be stirred up on the other side?
Do these 'powers' extend to illegally grabbing land and effectively imposing a form of apartheid?
Well, as we have seen, evidently they do (!), but that doesn't mean that they either (a) should be doingit, or (b) that they would actually achieve anything positive for Israel.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I am sure that in the post-1948 conflicts when the Arab states were always the primary aggressor, the hatred from the Israeli side would be stirred up, as you state above.
This is so unquestionably, unfathomably wrong. For a start it would be entirely wrong under English law - if you were of the opinion that I'd previously tried to kill you that would serve as no defence whatsoever if you came to my house and killed me while I were unarmed and not acting with aggression toward you. Even if it transpired at Court that I actually had, at some time previously, been guilty of an attempted murder against you; that may be some minimal mitigation, but you'd still be guilty of murder. Which legal system are you suggesting authorises this to be done without penalty?
The principles which apply under international law are little different.
Same to you? Not a terribly polite way of putting it.
Unbelievably wrong.
Therefore it's on them to look at the alternatives...
By definition I'd say, no. Every single person I've seen comment on this thread condemns the killing of unarmed civilians by Hamas and other coincidentally pro-Palestinian groups. However I note you are unwilling to condemn such killing when ordered by the Israeli government.
I'm not sure anyone here is even arguing against that. However, what I think that some people are arguing is that "the other party was aggressive first", even if beyond a doubt true, is no possible defence when you've escalated to the level of killing unarmed non-combatants, as has happened in this case.
Maybe not all Palestinians are Hamas militants?
Cease the aerial bombing campaign against Gaza. Lift a selection of the restrictions. Don't deliberately prevent basics which clearly don't have a military application, like staple food and clean water, from being available. Provide meaningful resources to humanitarian efforts for the Palestinians, especially in Gaza, such as through the UN food and education programmes. Halt the expansion of all settlements. Establish a baseline of diplomatic relations with other nearby Arab nations - this one certainly doesn't imply that there's an agreement about anything, purely that official communication can take place. In other words, everything the Israeli opposition had been calling for.
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It actually isn’t necessarily a war crime if the building is a military target. It then comes down to proportionality and the care taken to avoid civilian casualties. Where Israel issues evacuation warnings and reinforces that with roof knocking they are probably compliant. Of course if the building is a target because Hamas have stored weapons there or are launching rockets from there then Hamas have committed a war crime in the first place.
What are your alternatives by the way?
They had been easing the blockade. This turned out to be Hamas lulling them into reducing security. Previously they relaxed the blockade to allow in building materials for reconstruction- Hamas used those instead to build tunnels under the fence to infiltrate attacks against Israelis. Hamas don’t want concessions, they want to kill Israelis.
Though i agree on the West Bank settlements and would add the water rights scandal
Actually from the videos Israel are mitigating this risk. The neighbourhood is usually warned, and the bombs are delay fused so they explode underground - collapsing the building rather than exploding it.
You can tell the Gazans know and trust this from how often they (and the media) are standing out in the open,surprisingly close, with their phones out waiting to video the demolition.
The Israelis take a surprising amount of effort to reduce civilian casualties (after the decision to hit that target) - compare this to whole Israeli towns hiding in shelters from Hamas rockets that often don’t even escape Gaza, landing on their own people.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
And you really and truly believe that both Hamas (and their Iranian backers) and Islamic Jihad will cease their actions if all that you say above comes to pass?
And you really and truly believe that both Hamas (and their Iranian backers) and Islamic Jihad will cease their actions if the current actions continue? (!)
Even if this is not a war crime, Israel is no stranger to breaking international law, and the actions are appalling and irresponsible for any independent state to be engaging in,
Why is any one individual person expected to come up with proposals for how an independent state should act? Illegal and/or irresponsible actions by states can be called out without any individual having to come up with a compliant solution!
But do you deny that, despite these so-called 'efforts', it has consistently been the case in this conflict, over a period of many years (just not within the last few days, but that won't last) that deaths and severe injuries of Palestinian civilians are far higher than citizens of Israel?
Indeed. The building is definitely, unarguably, the home of hundreds of non-combatants. It may in addition be used by some of the militants. Surely everyone is in agreement on that?
Indeed. That's precisely why it's so obvious these are crimes - the force is beyond all possible proportion.
Sure. Maybe. But they've killed thousands of unarmed non-combatants, frequently without allowing adequate time to evacuate, without there being anywhere for them to evacuate to, or in some cases without any prior warning being delivered at all.
That's sometimes the case, I'm sure you're right sometimes the force is proportionate. However, if it were always proportionate the number of unarmed non-combatants killed by the blasts would be near zero. It isn't. What does that tell you? That the warnings are generally inadequate.
No? Of course not. However, I note the Netanyahu government has chosen to do the opposite in all cases. What does that tell you?
Sadly, yes, they do. So is the proportionate and reasonable thing to do in response to that a) to continue destroying Gaza building by building, sacrificing thousands of unarmed non-combatants or b) to tackle the extremism at its root cause while cutting off its support among the general population? Which option is likely to be the more effective in the long run?
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
To be honest, the Hamas attack must have been some time in the planning which I assume was helped by Iranian military intelligence and I have wondered why a fully-coordinated incisional attack was not also made by Hezbollah from Lebanon, when it appears only minor action took place from that quarter in the form of missiles.
I'd begin by simply not blowing up an entire block of flats.
brad465
Established Member
Mahmoud Abbas - 87
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei - 84
Vladimir Putin - 71
I wonder how much this move and the Ukraine invasion has been brought about by the central figures involved being old and wanting to "achieve" something before their time's up?
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei - 84
Vladimir Putin - 71
I wonder how much this move and the Ukraine invasion has been brought about by the central figures involved being old and wanting to "achieve" something before their time's up?
Herefordian
Member
All I'll say is Hamas were the ones who decided to use innocent peoples' homes to install their infrastructure.
On the other hand, the IDF probably do possess (and should have used) different and safer means to stop Hamas from using it any further.
I've also decided at this point, after some reflection on a sleepless night, I think it's best this is my final contribution to this topic.
As I've said earlier, my best friend and his family (who don't condone any of this) are Jewish, so the subject of Israel is probably a bit close to home for me. That combined with my friend and his eldest daughter (my goddaughter) recently receiving yet more anti-semitic abuse, it was a poor decision and poor judgement from myself to get involved in this particular discussion.
Hopefully I can contribute to other topics with a clearer head in the future.
I know similar views have been posted earlier on this thread, but I feel so strongly about this that I would like to open a few points for discussion.
1. The amount of open anti-Semitism from ALL aspects of our society, and those of our close allies, in the last couple of days has disgusted me. For example the Sydney protests and similar in London and New York. I think that we, as a society, need to condemn any supporters of the terrorism taking place and work towards ensuring that such views cannot be expressed in our country.
2. There's a time for criticism of Israel, and their long history of persecution of the Palestinian people and ultimately partial creation of the current crisis, but this is absolutely not the time. Hundreds if not thousands of innocent people have been brutally slaughtered by genocidal terrorists and it seems to me that the reaction of many people is "sad, but the Israeli regime has done so much worse". I would like to ask anyone of that viewpoint to point out where, in the 80 year history of the country, Israeli gangs have systematically murdered, tortured and raped innocent civilians, including children, and taken hundreds of hostages to an almost certain death. Israel has made terrible decisions in their past, but nothing on this scale of brutality.
3. I have seen a lot of people, online and off, saying that this is an excuse for the Israelis to launch a genocide in Gaza similar to the Nazis at the Warsaw Ghetto. As far as I can tell, Israel has continued warning Gazan civilians about impending air strikes and has allocated certain areas of the Strip a safe zones which will currently not be bombed. Can anyone enlighten me as to when in history a 'genocidal' regime has given prior warning and taken multiple steps to minimise casualties to the people supposedly being wiped out? I feel that such terms as genocide, war crimes and Nazi tendencies are being thrown around so much at the moment they have lost their true meanings a everything is labelled as such. It is not a far stretch to imply that certain Russian troll farms may be behind this phenomenon for obvious reasons.
Sorry for the long post, but this has been bothering me a lot in the past few days and this forum is the only place I feel comfortable to have a discussion, I do realise that many people will disagree with my points and inn fact I would like to hear the opposing points and perhaps change my view to one more sympathetic to the Palestinians. It is a real shame as, before these events, I considered myself largely pro-Palestinian, but I am really struggling to maintain that stance.
1. The amount of open anti-Semitism from ALL aspects of our society, and those of our close allies, in the last couple of days has disgusted me. For example the Sydney protests and similar in London and New York. I think that we, as a society, need to condemn any supporters of the terrorism taking place and work towards ensuring that such views cannot be expressed in our country.
2. There's a time for criticism of Israel, and their long history of persecution of the Palestinian people and ultimately partial creation of the current crisis, but this is absolutely not the time. Hundreds if not thousands of innocent people have been brutally slaughtered by genocidal terrorists and it seems to me that the reaction of many people is "sad, but the Israeli regime has done so much worse". I would like to ask anyone of that viewpoint to point out where, in the 80 year history of the country, Israeli gangs have systematically murdered, tortured and raped innocent civilians, including children, and taken hundreds of hostages to an almost certain death. Israel has made terrible decisions in their past, but nothing on this scale of brutality.
3. I have seen a lot of people, online and off, saying that this is an excuse for the Israelis to launch a genocide in Gaza similar to the Nazis at the Warsaw Ghetto. As far as I can tell, Israel has continued warning Gazan civilians about impending air strikes and has allocated certain areas of the Strip a safe zones which will currently not be bombed. Can anyone enlighten me as to when in history a 'genocidal' regime has given prior warning and taken multiple steps to minimise casualties to the people supposedly being wiped out? I feel that such terms as genocide, war crimes and Nazi tendencies are being thrown around so much at the moment they have lost their true meanings a everything is labelled as such. It is not a far stretch to imply that certain Russian troll farms may be behind this phenomenon for obvious reasons.
Sorry for the long post, but this has been bothering me a lot in the past few days and this forum is the only place I feel comfortable to have a discussion, I do realise that many people will disagree with my points and inn fact I would like to hear the opposing points and perhaps change my view to one more sympathetic to the Palestinians. It is a real shame as, before these events, I considered myself largely pro-Palestinian, but I am really struggling to maintain that stance.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
I truly believe if the Palestinians and others stopped fighting tomorrow there would be peace. If Israel stopped fighting there would be genocide.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Agree, which is why I see no end, of any kind, to this conflict, any time soon.
Not all Germans were Nazis, but that didn't stop them and their collaborators murdering 6 million Jews. Perhaps the residents of Palestine could elect (haha) a body other than Hamas, with its genocidal mission, to represent them?
Once again, what other action could Israel take against Hamas, given that Gaza is a tiny, densely-populated enclave, in which moreover Hama deliberately base themselves amongst civilians? Perhaps Mr Netanyahu should do a Sergeant Wilson and ask the leader of Hamas if they would be so kind as to not slaughter Israeli men, women and children and parading their bodies, thanks awfully much.
dakta
Member
- Joined
- 18 Jun 2008
- Messages
- 577
nor did it stop germany being bombed iirc
Agreed. I'm very broadly supportive of Israel, and despair that many buy the Palestinian propaganda hook, line and sinker.
But, you're right here. There is a very casual view to 'collateral damage' amongst many. Those pieces of 'collateral' are still humans. It's not good enough for people to just say 'oh they weren't being targeted'. If you're killed by a targeted killing or you're killed as a consequence of lack of care, the end result is the same. After a bombing campaign like this , each bomb should be able to be justified with a clear target and evidence of real attempts to mitigate collateral damage. I hope this is the case, and it may well be the case, although I have my doubts.
On point 2. Probably best not to go back the full 80 years. Because I think events like this were pretty common on both sides during the events of the war of independence.
My hope would be that in 80 years further forward the situation looks a hell of a lot better
Very true. Hamas of course are following that grand old tradition of 'kill all the jews'. Hamas are so clear on their aim 'to rid all of historic Palestine of jews', unfortunately that's a clear declaration that many anti Israeli people/Palestinian supporters seem to decide not to look at. Whatever concessions Israel made, Hamas would still want them dead, that's literally their whole point as an organisation.
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It's probably worth noting that EU diplomats are concerned that Israels actions may be crossing the boundaries of international law:
This is just ridiculous, it's difficult to have sensible debate with you if you're not taking the point seriously. Lots of alternative courses for the government were being pur forward by the opposition, including through protests against Likud and the refusal of some reservists to report for duty. I put some of these in #195 but there's a lot more that could be done.