2023 Israel - Hamas war

[brad465]

Indeed, in fact it all boils down to one bit of land in particular, Jerusalem. What once once just a small town of no significance whatsoever on the edge of the Arabian desert, has become the reason that three religions have battled and killed to "own" it for centuries. Utterly, utterly pathetic.

IIRC the 2-state solution proposed making Jerusalem an international area, which no jurisdiction has complete control over. It's probably the best/east worst option, but I don't know how you'd enforce it.

 

[Bantamzen]

IIRC the 2-state solution proposed making Jerusalem an international area, which no jurisdiction has complete control over. It's probably the best/east worst option, but I don't know how you'd enforce it.

Honestly the best solution would involve all three interested religions coming to an agreement to share it and play nicely.

 

[brad465]

Honestly the best solution would involve all three interested religions coming to an agreement to share it and play nicely.

I imagine at ordinary citizen level this is already the case (as in they leave each other in peace), the problem is at Government/ruler level. Considering those at the highest level of Shia and Sunni Islam hate each other as much as they do for other religions/atheists, getting them to share is a long way off.

One quote that has never rung more true than in a war is this: "We have far more in common with the citizens of any other country than any country's citizens has with their own Government."

 

[Bantamzen]

I imagine at ordinary citizen level this is already the case (as in they leave each other in peace), the problem is at Government/ruler level. Considering those at the highest level of Shia and Sunni Islam hate each other as much as they do for other religions/atheists, getting them to share is a long way off.

One quote that has never rung more true than in a war is this: "We have far more in common with the citizens of any other country than any country's citizens has with their own Government."

I'm not sure what governments have to do with the basic premise that religion is at the heart of the conflict in the Middle East. It is up to the religions involved to end their p***** contest and figure out a way to stop this madness.

 

[brad465]

I'm not sure what governments have to do with the basic premise that religion is at the heart of the conflict in the Middle East. It is up to the religions involved to end their p***** contest and figure out a way to stop this madness.

Maybe because in some of these countries, religion and the Government are the same thing/deeply intertwined?

 

[nw1]

I'm not sure what governments have to do with the basic premise that religion is at the heart of the conflict in the Middle East. It is up to the religions involved to end their p***** contest and figure out a way to stop this madness.

I don't think it's religion, but each "side" over-reacting to wrongs committed by the other with violence.

Hamas thinks that terrorism against Israelis is an acceptable response to unequal treatment of Palestinians.
Netanyahu thinks that bombing Gaza resulting in mass killing of Palestinians is an acceptable response to Hamas terrorism.

and the cycle continues.

They need to break the cycle, but neither Hamas nor Netanyahu are the cool-headed people that the situation needs. Both sides appear to be consumed by a desire for bloody revenge.

Would the best solution, in an ideal world, be to have a single state, Israel-Palestine, in which Jews and Arabs are given equal treatment and there is no discrimination? Where the government consists of a mix of both ethnicities (and an equal mix is specified by law)? Some might not like it but it seems a possible way of stopping the violence?

 

[Bantamzen]

Maybe because in some of these countries, religion and the Government are the same thing/deeply intertwined?

In many countries religion is way more important to the people than government, because administrations can change but religions cannot in most cases.

I don't think it's religion, but each "side" over-reacting to wrongs committed by the other with violence.

Hamas thinks that terrorism against Israelis is an acceptable response to unequal treatment of Palestinians.
Netanyahu thinks that bombing Gaza resulting in mass killing of Palestinians is an acceptable response to Hamas terrorism.

and the cycle continues.

They need to break the cycle, but neither Hamas nor Netanyahu are the cool-headed people that the situation needs. Both sides appear to be consumed by a desire for bloody revenge.

Would the best solution, in an ideal world, be to have a single state, Israel-Palestine, in which Jews and Arabs are given equal treatment and there is no discrimination? Where the government consists of a mix of both ethnicities? Some might not like it but it seems a possible way of stopping the violence?

Of course its down to religion. The entire conflict is based around 2 religions that simply cannot see eye to eye because they both believe they should be the custodians on the "holy land". Politicians in the region simply follow the flow that is set by the religious hierarchy, which for the most part is old, scared men, terrified of change and way too addicted to power.

 

[Starmill]

Would the best solution, in an ideal world, be to have a single state, Israel-Palestine, in which Jews and Arabs are given equal treatment and there is no discrimination? Where the government consists of a mix of both ethnicities (and an equal mix is specified by law)? Some might not like it but it seems a possible way of stopping the violence?

Jews would likely still be in a minority in any such state. The whole purpose of the founding of Israel was that it would be a Jewish state, so this is incredibly unlikely.

 

[eldomtom2]

Maybe, but Palestinian refugees have caused chaos in Jordan and Lebanon, and Egypt doesn’t need more security issues in Sinai - they already have more than they can really control.

Do you think this would be an acceptable argument to use against Jewish refugees in the 1930s?

 

[Mogster]

As I understand it Judaism is by far the oldest of the 3 religions, being traced back beyond 2000 BC, next is Christianity, then Islam with the underpinning events happening around 500AD. i don’t see how any of this is relevant today, if people wish to believe in some higher deity it’s their own business, but no one else’s.

There’s a large “free” Palastine, anti-Israel protest in London today it seems. If the message was more “free Palastine, from Hamas” I could support.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe because in some of these countries, religion and the Government are the same thing/deeply intertwined?

Iran is a theocracy.

 

[brad465]

In many countries religion is way more important to the people than government, because administrations can change but religions cannot in most cases.

Governments are still influenced by that though, knowing that showing support for the main religion helps to gain support from your population.

Iran is a theocracy.

This was who I was thinking of most yes.

Meanwhile pro-Palestine protests seem to be gaining traction in the UK:

Pro-Palestinian march draws thousands in London with protests across UK

Police warn that anyone showing support for Hamas, a proscribed terrorist group, could face arrest.

www.bbc.co.uk

Pro-Palestinian protests are taking place across the UK, including in London and Manchester.
In London several thousand people marched from the BBC's New Broadcasting House to Downing Street. More than 1,000 police officers were deployed.
Police warned that anyone showing support for Hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisation, or deviating from the route, could face arrest.
It comes a week after Hamas launched an unprecedented attack on Israel.

Fighters from the the Palestinian militant group entered communities near the Gaza Strip, killing at least 1,300 people, and took scores of hostages.
More than 2,200 people have been killed in Gaza since Israel launched retaliatory air strikes and a ground offensive is also expected.
In London at the Palestine Solidarity Campaign demonstration, Palestine flags and supportive placards were waved as people chanted during the march to Downing Street.

 

[Simon11]

Such a complex situation however at what point will western countries tell Israel that their current actions are unacceptable and need to rein in with more targeted force?

The fact that they have now killed twice the number that Hamas killed and it appears Isreal hasn't even started any full offence in Gaza.

BBC reporting:

1. More than 1,300 people were killed in Israel last weekend when Hamas fighters crossed the border to attack civilians and soldiers
2. More than 2,200 people have been killed in Israel's bombing campaign of the Gaza Strip launched in the aftermath, Palestinian authorities say

 

[GRALISTAIR]

As I understand it Judaism is by far the oldest of the 3 religions, being traced back beyond 2000 BC, next is Christianity, then Islam with the underpinning events happening around 500AD. i don’t see how any of this is relevant today, if people wish to believe in some higher deity it’s their own business, but no one else’s.

yes the prophet Mohammed was born 590 CE (AD). So circa 620 CE. (CE is common era btw)

 

[robbob700]

Jews would likely still be in a minority in any such state. The whole purpose of the founding of Israel was that it would be a Jewish state, so this is incredibly unlikely.

There could be some sort of power-sharing so that jews are guaranteed places in the parliament, and joint heads of government similar to Northern Ireland.

Jews would likely still be in a minority in any such state. The whole purpose of the founding of Israel was that it would be a Jewish state, so this is incredibly unlikely.

The concept of a Jewish state hasn't been a huge success - is it time to try something different? A secular state with freedom of religion guaranteed, together with a leadership formed from the two ethnic groups - Jews and Arabs - working together for the good of the whole population.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The concept of a Jewish state hasn't been a huge success - is it time to try something different? A secular state with freedom of religion guaranteed, together with a leadership formed from the two ethnic groups - Jews and Arabs - working together for the good of the whole population.

Israel is an established state, despite what many might think to the otherwise. Who do you think would be a likely candidate to address that nation of the need to change their status and what reception do you think they would receive?

 

[JamesT]

There could be some sort of power-sharing so that jews are guaranteed places in the parliament, and joint heads of government similar to Northern Ireland.

The concept of a Jewish state hasn't been a huge success - is it time to try something different? A secular state with freedom of religion guaranteed, together with a leadership formed from the two ethnic groups - Jews and Arabs - working together for the good of the whole population.

I’m not sure a parliament that hasn’t functioned for about 10 of the 25 years it has existed is the greatest example to base on.

In terms of its primary purpose of providing a safe haven for the Jews I think Israel has been a success. Anti-semitism hasn’t gone away in the world.

 

[Bluejays]

Indeed, in fact it all boils down to one bit of land in particular, Jerusalem. What once once just a small town of no significance whatsoever on the edge of the Arabian desert, has become the reason that three religions have battled and killed to "own" it for centuries. Utterly, utterly pathetic.

What I found interesting/sad was that it's not even just between different religions. We visited the church of the sephulchure last year. When we got back i did a bit of googling about it, as it was a very impressive place. There are a few different Christian denominations based in that church, and on more than 1 occasion they've had physically violent altercations. Unbelievable

Was a bit of a story last year aswell . I think one of the Christian patriarchs had been flogging off church land in Jerusalem and pocketing the cash, I'd imagine he's well out the way of the trouble now, beer in hand on his own private island. Crazy people

 

[renegademaster]

I'm afraid in this case, religion is at the heart of the problem and has been for centuries.

Not really

The whole issue is Ethnic more than anything, they ethnicities just happen to have different religions but the basic dynamic would be the same if it was two Muslim groups. The only real religious aspect is the tensions about Temple Mount (as Jews know) or Al-Aqsa (As Muslims do)

 

[yorkie]

I'd say the decision not to display sympathy for Israel has entirely been influenced by potential backlashes from a part of London's 'community'.

And rightly so; it would be an absolute disgrace if they had displayed support for a rogue state which ignores international law and UN resolutions.

Looks like tonight will be the start of Israel's stronger phase of the operation. It will be a grim time for many civilians living there.

I do have to keep pinching myself to remind me how lucky I am the birth lottery put me in a benign place like the UK and not somewhere like Gaza, or other unstable parts of the world.

Very true.

Why do I understand Israel's response? ...

And, for balance, do you understand the response of Palestinians?

As I understand it Judaism is by far the oldest of the 3 religions, being traced back beyond 2000 BC, next is Christianity, then Islam with the underpinning events happening around 500AD. i don’t see how any of this is relevant today, if people wish to believe in some higher deity it’s their own business, but no one else’s.

There’s a large “free” Palastine, anti-Israel protest in London today it seems. If the message was more “free Palastine, from Hamas” I could support.

A ludicrous argument which demonstrates a complete lack of understanding on your part; sadly Hamas is filling the void because of the fact that Palestine is denied the right to exist as an independent state.

I fully support that Palestine should be freed; until Palestine is truly free, there is no prospect of ending the conflict.

 

[BananaRepublic]

....The whole issue is Ethnic more than anything, they ethnicities just happen to have different religions but the basic dynamic would be the same if it was two Muslim groups. The only real religious aspect is the tensions about Temple Mount (as Jews know) or Al-Aqsa (As Muslims do)

It's ethnic and rooted in the historic emergence of the ideas of nationalism, in the late 19th century and events that took place between about 1880 to 1948.
The history goes back more than two and a half thousand years, but the relevant history goes back to the latter decade of the 1800's and the decay of the crumbling Ottoman Empire.

This coincided with the origins of Zionism, the movement that grew out of the desire of displaced Jews, scattered across Europe, North Africa and the Middle East, to return to their ancient homeland.
Those Jewish communities had suffered discrimination and various pogroms for centuries.

The Turks were allied with the Germans and Habsburg Austrian-Hungarian empire, extending into WW1.
Britain wanted to secure the route to India and its eastern empire, through the Suez Canal and along with its Allies, France and Imperial Russia planned to drive the Ottomans out of the Levant.
The British enlisted the help of the various Arab clans and tribes to fight the rag tag Turkish forces, on the promise of handing over the land to form an Arab nation.
Meanwhile, Britain and France had other plans to carve up the region into newly drawn territories and rule them themselves.
Those territories became the basis of the subsequent Middle East countries that emerged later.

Following WW1, with the Turks gone, there was a gradual migration of European and Russian Jews to what was now re-named Palestine, to join the Jews that had always lived there.
Arabs and Jew lived side by side, although there was growing resentment from some of the Arabs , to the growing numbers of new settlers, who began to develop the landscape.
Following WW2, Britain and France gave up on their territories and with the mass migration of Jewish refugee survivors of the war in Europe, the state of Israel emerged.
You can read about that troubled birth for yourselves.

Note that even though the name Palestine has its roots in variations on ancient names, going back a couple of thousand years, there was no such thing as "Palestinians' until after the formation of the state of Israel.
It's a term that came to describe the displaced Arab people's, out of a population of some 500,000 or more, who both moved out of the region en-masse, or were driven out.

The present day animosity was born out of the Arab leaders not accepting the formation of the state of Israel and their failed attempt to usurp the newly formed nation in their 1948 war.
The newly formed UN and the Israeli's proposed what today would be called a 2 state solution, but the Arabs refused to accept it, as they have done at every attempt since.
The rest has been unfolding history.

Unfortunately, there has never been a political group, with enough power to be said to represent the Palestinians , who would accept a 2 state solution.
That possibility is now far beyond hope.
With the rise in Iran's power and influence and the deep hatred felt by many Palestinians, reconciliation looks impossible.


.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There could be some sort of power-sharing so that jews are guaranteed places in the parliament, and joint heads of government similar to Northern Ireland.

The concept of a Jewish state hasn't been a huge success - is it time to try something different? A secular state with freedom of religion guaranteed, together with a leadership formed from the two ethnic groups - Jews and Arabs - working together for the good of the whole population.

On the model of India Possibly? At one time the 3 most powerful positions were held by a Hindu, a Muslim and a Sikh iirc.

 

[yorkie]

A few more excerpts from the BBCs update page:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364

...The UN's aid agency told the BBC that Gaza is "being pushed into an abyss"...

...Around 60% of casualties coming into the hospital are women, children and elderly, he says. The hospital is running out of medical supplies, with fuel powering the generators expected to run out today.

“That means no surgeries, no oxygen for patients. We feel so helpless, like we can’t do anything.”...

...Dr Natalie Roberts, the executive director of the charity Médecins Sans Frontières UK, says evacuating hospitals in the Gaza Strip with hours’ notice is an “impossible task”.

“There's nowhere for them to go anyway," Dr Roberts said. "The hospitals in the south are completely overwhelmed and there's no electricity across the Gaza Strip now.”...

...Children among dead after strike hits fleeing convoy on Gaza 'safe' route
BBC Verify has confirmed women and young children were killed when a strike hit their vehicles as they headed away from northern Gaza
Analysis of images from the scene show some of those who died were aged between two and five...

...The UN relief agency operating in Gaza has said its shelters in the northern part of the territory "are not safe anymore" - calling it "unprecedented"...

...It said that despite the order from Israeli authorities for Palestinians to leave for the south, many people including pregnant women, children, the elderly and those with disabilities will not be able to flee the area...

Do those who appear to support Israel's actions still try to justify, excuse or condone what Israel is doing?

Shame on anyone who thinks this is proportionate or justified.

 

[Coolzac]

A few more excerpts from the BBCs update page:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364

Do those who appear to support Israel's actions still try to justify, excuse or condone what Israel is doing?

Shame on anyone who thinks this is proportionate or justified.

Unfortunately it's a war, and a war that Hamas started. Wars are awful, but at least Israel tries to limit it's impact on civilians....

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately it's a war, and a war that Hamas started...

Hostilities have been ongoing for many years; see above.

Wars are awful, but at least Israel tries to limit it's impact on civilians....

Do you think they are doing a good job of that? Have you read the above?

Do you concede that disproportionately more Palestinian civilians are impacted than Israeli civilians?

Does "limiting" the impact extend to revoking access to basics such as food, water, electricity?

Do you support or condone these actions?

 

[Coolzac]

Hostilities have been ongoing for many years; see above.

Do you think they are doing a good job of that? Have you read the above?

Do you concede that disproportionately more Palestinian civilians are impacted than Israeli civilians?

Does "limiting" the impact extend to revoking access to basics such as food, water, electricity?

Do you support or condone these actions?

I ultimately support the actions to get rid of Hamas, who are trying to kill every single Jew around the world, as well as much more if they had the chance.

As to every single point of action, it's hard to know from the sofa of my home, and I'm not going to be an armchair expert on modern urban warfare.

 

[eldomtom2]

I ultimately support the actions to get rid of Hamas, who are trying to kill every single Jew around the world, as well as much more if they had the chance.

As to every single point of action, it's hard to know from the sofa of my home, and I'm not going to be an armchair expert on modern urban warfare.

So if you're not going to be an armchair expert, you're going to listen to organisations like Doctors Without Borders who are saying that Israel's evacuation demands are fundamentally unreasonable?

 

[Coolzac]

My position isn't really any different from the UK government, or that of Labour. Israel is entitled to defend itself and try and rid the world of Hamas, but must do it's best to limit civilian casualties while doing so!

 

[nw1]

Shame on anyone who thinks this is proportionate or justified.

I would like to see Western leaders being unafraid to condemn the aggressive hawk Netanyahu.

Yes, Hamas did start the current round of violence through their terrorism - but this does not justify Netanyahu's actions.

Sadly there seems to be a prevailing view that criticism of Netanyahu equals anti-semitism, and western leaders are frightened of being labelled anti-semites. This however is nonsense. It's as nonsense as holding a view that revulsion at the original Hamas attacks equals Islamophobia.

I'd like to see Israelis reject Likud in future elections. Throughout my adult life it seems that the Labour Party of Israel is the party that wants to see peace, while the reactionary right-wing Likud appear to want to return violence with violence and prolong the conflict.

It's telling that Labour PM Shimon Peres, along with Arafat, won the Nobel Peace Prize. Netanyahu and Hamas will never receive such an honour.

Hawks cause nothing but trouble - witness hawk Bush respond to 9/11 with an outrageous and pointless war in Afghanistan and then another in Iraq. Such violence, as well as being bad in itself, will only increase the risk of terrorism against Israelis and Westerners - are/were people like Bush and Netanyahu too stupid to realise this? Or are/were they so consumed with vengeance that they cannot think rationally?

 

[yorkie]

My position isn't really any different from the UK government, or that of Labour.

Not true; though the UK Government's position is utterly appalling and disgusting you appear to be going a step further which is quite something.

Israel is entitled to defend itself and try and rid the world of Hamas, but must do it's best to limit civilian casualties while doing so!

So, to be clear, you are condoning/supporting the actions which are an absolute humanitarian disaster, as well as breaching international law.