2023 Israel - Hamas war

[Mag_seven]

Can we keep discussion about Russia /Ukraine to this thread please.

thanks

 

[eldomtom2]

If you're referring to the settlers in the West Bank, we can both agree that they need to go. Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005.

Gaza is, in all practical terms, occupied.

 

[RT4038]

Russian-speaking Ukrainians have been overwhelmingly in support of the Ukrainian government after Russia invaded - after all, Putin's claims of invading to protect Russian speakers from Nazis somewhat falls flat when the president of Ukraine is.....a Russian-speaking Jew.

No, it does not necessarily fall flat. For political reasons a president could turn to other allegiances and agendas. (This is like people saying that UK civil servants had lots of influence in the EU, but that doesn't necessarily translate that they were looking after what I believe were my interests as a UK citizen...)

10 of the Knesset members are Arab out of a total of 120 - it's not a large minority by any means but is still relatively significant. Claims that Israel is an apartheid state are completely false - Arab Israelis share the same rights as other citizens.

Irish people didn't feel that their minority representation in the UK Parliament gave them a satisfactory political voice prior to 1922.....

See above. Furthermore Israel is placed much higher on the human rights index than their neighbouring countries, due to more religious freedom, more free speech and political freedom, and importantly rights for LGBT folk.

But if you are an Arab non LGBT living in Israel or an occupied territory, what would your view be? No averaging across the cultures. When/how will there be an Arab head of the Israeli state? Arab people in Israel will have a reasonable life if they keep their heads down, but they are never going to be able to participate in the running of the country, for all of their political representation. Some will think that a fair price to pay, and some not. (No doubt some black Zimbabweans will think that life was much better under Ian Smith).

We know how and why the Israeli state came into existence, and why the Jewish population are never going to allow an Arab voting majority within its boundaries. We cannot judge the politics and cultural norms of that country only by our politics and norms. Nor can we assume what other people think of a particular situation or tell them what they should be thinking judging on our own thoughts or cultural norms [ after all, some people cannot understand/ see the importance of, the issue of 'sovereignty' and the Brexit vote to some people, and that is amongst our own folk ]. I am merely trying to see both and several sides of this issue.

Gaza is, in all practical terms, occupied.

and when not actually occupied, little more than a hostile 'bantustan'.

 

[brad465]

Israeli forces are preparing for an offensive into the southern part of Gaza, which would be catastrophic, to the point that the US and UK Governments are warning against it. I think if it goes ahead we could be looking at even larger global pro-Palestinian protests and unbearable pressure on many governments to do something, given the potential death toll from such a move.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68271878

UK urges Israel to 'stop and think' on Rafah offensive​

The UK's foreign secretary has urged Israel to "stop and think seriously" about any ground offensive in Rafah and the impact on the estimated 1.5 million people sheltering in the southern city.
"There's nowhere for them to go," Lord David Cameron told reporters.
"They can't go south into Egypt. They can't go north and back to their homes because many have been destroyed.
"So we are very concerned about the situation and we want Israel to stop and think seriously before it takes any further action."
Cameron reiterated his call for a pause in the fighting, with the long-term aim of securing a "sustainable ceasefire".
He added than any pause in fighting would allow for more aid to enter the territory, and for Israeli hostages to be rescued.
"We need to get those hostages out, including the British nationals. We need to get the aid in," he said.
"The best way to do that is to stop the fighting now and turn that into a permanent, sustainable ceasefire.”

 

[farleigh]

Is Hamas still holding hostages?

 

[DustyBin]

Is Hamas still holding hostages?

I believe so; apparently a couple were rescued the other day.

 

[Silenos]

Israeli forces are preparing for an offensive into the southern part of Gaza, which would be catastrophic, to the point that the US and UK Governments are warning against it. I think if it goes ahead we could be looking at even larger global pro-Palestinian protests and unbearable pressure on many governments to do something, given the potential death toll from such a move.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68271878

Not sure about the unbearable pressure, to be honest. There are powerful political pressures the other way, too. In an election year, the main parties in the U.K. and the US are vulnerable to charges of antisemitism from their political opponents, which would certainly be used by the Israeli government if there were any move to, for example, restrict their access to arms or apply sanctions.

Ultimately, if the more extreme elements in the Knesset were to bring about a position where the state blocked all aid into Gaza in order to allow disease and famine to resolve the Palestinian problem for them, it’s not clear to me how much could be done, politically. After all, Israel has already been accused of genocide.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is Hamas still holding hostages?

Yes AP reports Israeli sources as saying around 100 are still being held captive alive:

Israel says about 100 hostages remain in Hamas captivity after dozens were freed during a cease-fire in November. Hamas also holds the remains of roughly 30 others who were either killed on Oct. 7 or died in captivity.

Israeli forces rescue 2 hostages in dramatic Gaza raid that killed at least 67 Palestinians

According to the Health Ministry in Hamas-run Gaza, minors make up almost half of the 28,176 Palestinians killed so far.

apnews.com

As you might imagine it gets a lot more play in Israeli media. For instance scroll a little way down the front page of Haaretz (an Israeli newspaper) and you'll find a running tally of the hostages still held and those released. The Jerusalem Post similarly on their live updates page has a running tally of the number of hostages still being held.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Israeli forces are preparing for an offensive into the southern part of Gaza, which would be catastrophic, to the point that the US and UK Governments are warning against it. I think if it goes ahead we could be looking at even larger global pro-Palestinian protests and unbearable pressure on many governments to do something, given the potential death toll from such a move.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68271878

Good to see Cameron coming onto the right side unlike the Labour Party who are now so invested in anti Semitism they don't dare suggest anything that is seen as being against Israel.

 

[brad465]

Good to see Cameron coming onto the right side unlike the Labour Party who are now so invested in anti Semitism they don't dare suggest anything that is seen as being against Israel.

Sometimes I wonder if shouting down all debate on the behaviour of successive Israeli governments as anti-Semitic is up there among the deadliest and most damaging cases of gaslighting in history. No doubt there is genuine anti-Semitism in connection with this exhibited by some, but labelling criticism of a state/government/army as some form of offensive ism should not be.

 

[JamesT]

Sometimes I wonder if shouting down all debate on the behaviour of successive Israeli governments as anti-Semitic is up there among the deadliest and most damaging cases of gaslighting in history. No doubt there is genuine anti-Semitism in connection with this exhibited by some, but labelling criticism of a state/government/army as some form of offensive ism should not be.

The problem with that is that some criticism of Israel is just thinly disguised antisemitism. Taking some of the examples from the IHRA definition https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

 

[brad465]

The problem with that is that some criticism of Israel is just thinly disguised antisemitism. Taking some of the examples from the IHRA definition https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

Maybe we should add this to the long list of reasons for teaching critical thinking more widely, the population can better distinguish between what is and what isn't anti-Semitic in this context.

 

[Russel]

I think if it goes ahead we could be looking at even larger global pro-Palestinian protests and unbearable pressure on many governments to do something, given the potential death toll from such a move.

I've seen a few of these protests in London, I really don't see the point, what are they achieving?

 

[eldomtom2]

The problem with that is that some criticism of Israel is just thinly disguised antisemitism. Taking some of the examples from the IHRA definition https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

The IHRA definition is extremely controversial.

 

[DerekC]

There is an excellent article by Alan Rusbridger in today's Independent - unfortunately behind their paywall so I can't link it. I will copy the title and an extract from the last few paragraphs.

We know 7 October didn't happen in a vacuum - but we are not allowed to say it.
“Nimrod Novik, a top aide to former Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres and member of the so-called "Commanders for Israel's Security” talked about the context of the 7th October attacks. Novik's analysis placed heavy blame on the utter failure and futility of Israel's supposed policy of containment. He was scathing about Netanyahu; Contemptuous of the galloping annexation of the West Bank by settlers; Despairing of Israeli governments' choking the Palestinian Authority and frank about Netanyahu's deliberate policy of funding Hamas. He went further, denouncing two members of Netanyahu's coalition government as lunatics. He described national security minister Itamar Ben-Gvir as a "street thug" and finance minister Bezalel Smotrich as implementing a horrible agenda on the West Bank - "in effect a one-state solution close to apartheid".

There is of course real and vile antisemitism. There really are bigots who will believe any nut job conspiracy theory about Israel. Condemn them, suspend them, marginalise them. But take it from Nimrod Novik: the current Israeli government is one which includes criminals, lunatics, extremists and despots who have no interest in a peaceful solution to the Israel Palestine question. The horrors of 7th of October most certainly did not happen in a vacuum. It's not anti-Israel for so say so, nor is it anti Zionist, let alone anti-Semitic. But how casually these three are sometimes elided.

Meanwhile we watch helplessly, but I hope not silently, as something like carnage is unleashed on Gaza. I'm using a word uttered this week by the Pope's deputy cardinal Pietro Paroli. Needless to say he was immediately rebuked by Israel (for being antisemitic).”

To me this exposes the heart of the problem we are having in even talking about this war. Condemnation of the Hamas 7th October attacks was pretty much universal immediately after the event. But since then, the relentless campaign to label anything critical of the Israeli government as antisemitic has become counterproductive because people get angry if they aren't allowed to criticise something that's obviously wrong. And it's obvious that the retaliation has gone much too far.

 

[brad465]

There is an excellent article by Alan Rusbridger in today's Independent - unfortunately behind their paywall so I can't link it. I will copy the title and an extract from the last few paragraphs.



To me this exposes the heart of the problem we are having in even talking about this war. Condemnation of the Hamas 7th October attacks was pretty much universal immediately after the event. But since then, the relentless campaign to label anything critical of the Israeli government as antisemitic has become counterproductive because people get angry if they aren't allowed to criticise something that's obviously wrong. And it's obvious that the retaliation has gone much too far.

It's also counterproductive because it both prolongs the existence of the environment in which genuine anti-semitism can prevail and actively worsens it.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There is an excellent article by Alan Rusbridger in today's Independent - unfortunately behind their paywall so I can't link it. I will copy the title and an extract from the last few paragraphs.



To me this exposes the heart of the problem we are having in even talking about this war. Condemnation of the Hamas 7th October attacks was pretty much universal immediately after the event. But since then, the relentless campaign to label anything critical of the Israeli government as antisemitic has become counterproductive because people get angry if they aren't allowed to criticise something that's obviously wrong. And it's obvious that the retaliation has gone much too far.

Netanyahu going for the end game in if he launches the Rafah offensive even has Starmer finally calling him out after months of not doing so. Perhaps the ex Rochdale MP was onto something having seen that item Nimrod Novik

 

[Silenos]

Netanyahu going for the end game in if he launches the Rafah offensive even has Starmer finally calling him out after months of not doing so. Perhaps the ex Rochdale MP was onto something having seen that item Nimrod Novik

To add insult to injury, Benny Gantz has stated that Israel will launch the Rafah offensive at the start of Ramadan (if all remaining hostages are not returned, chances of which are low to say the least), which is pretty much guaranteed to offend Muslims around the world.

 

[brad465]

To add insult to injury, Benny Gantz has stated that Israel will launch the Rafah offensive at the start of Ramadan (if all remaining hostages are not returned, chances of which are low to say the least), which is pretty much guaranteed to offend Muslims around the world.

All counter-terrorism staff in the UK and US would be well advised not to book leave during that period then.

 

[JamesT]

To add insult to injury, Benny Gantz has stated that Israel will launch the Rafah offensive at the start of Ramadan (if all remaining hostages are not returned, chances of which are low to say the least), which is pretty much guaranteed to offend Muslims around the world.

October 7th was a Jewish holiday last year. Which was apparently chosen to mark 50 years since the start of the Yom Kippur war, which was also during Ramadan that year. I don't expect Hamas are going to give up firing rockets into Israel for Ramadan.

 

[Silenos]

October 7th was a Jewish holiday last year. Which was apparently chosen to mark 50 years since the start of the Yom Kippur war, which was also during Ramadan that year. I don't expect Hamas are going to give up firing rockets into Israel for Ramadan.

A lot of outrage was generated in the West, and certainly among the Jewish diaspora, by the fact that the Yom Kippur war was launched on the holiest day in the Jewish calendar. Attacking a Muslim enclave at the start of Ramadan is likely to produce similar outrage across the Muslim world.

But the Netanyahu government appears to have already decided that it doesn’t need to take outside opinion into account - a sort of Millwall style ‘everybody hates us and we don’t care’ - and who knows, it may be right.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147217
Just going to leave this here, a United Nations report into the use of sexual violence against victims and hostages taken on October 7 2023. Apologies for not quoting the report, it is very long.

Still think Hamas are "freedom fighters"?

Edit: Quote added to comply with rules. Thanks @yorkie for the heads-up.

UN News

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‘Clear and convincing information’ that hostages held in Gaza subjected to sexual violence, says UN Special Representative

United Nations



Pramila Patten, Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict, briefs journalists at the UN Headquarters, in New York.

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4 March 2024Peace and Security

Following a 17-day visit to Israel, the UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict reported on Monday that she and a team of experts had found “clear and convincing information” of rape and sexualized torture being committed against hostages seized during the 7 October terror attacks.

Pramila Patten added in a press release issued along with the report that there are also reasonable grounds to believe that such violence, which includes other “cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment”, may be continuing against those still being held by Hamas and other extremists in the Gaza Strip.

The report from her Office arose from an official visit to Israel at the invitation of the Government which included a visit to the occupied West Bank, between 29 January and 14 February.

In the context of the coordinated attack by Hamas and others of 7 October, the UN mission team found that there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred in multiple locations, including rape and gang rape in at least three locations in southern Israel.

The team also found a pattern of victims - mostly women - found fully or partially naked, bound and shot across multiple locations which “may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence”.

In some locations the mission said it could not verify reported incidents of rape.

Watch Ms. Patten's press conference announcing the team's findings at UN Headquarters in New York, below:

Full extent may never be known

The UN team is of the view that the true extent of sexual violence committed during the 7 October attacks and their aftermath could “take months or years to emerge and may never be fully known” according to the press release.

The mission made up of Ms. Patten and nine experts – which was not investigative in nature – conducted 33 meetings with Israeli representatives, examining more than 5,000 photographic images and 50 hours of video footage. It conducted 34 confidential interviews including with survivors and witnesses of the 7 October attacks, released hostages, first responders and others.

The report says that Israeli authorities have faced numerous challenges in collecting evidence.

Allegations implicating Israeli security forces, settlers

The team also visited Ramallah in the Occupied Palestinian Territory to hear the views and concerns of officials and civil society representatives since 7 October which allegedly implicate Israeli security forces and settlers.

Ms. Patten heard concerns raised over cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of Palestinians in detention, including sexual violence in the form of invasive searches, threats of rape and prolonged forced nudity.

The information gathered will complement that already gathered by other UN officials on allegations of conflict-related sexual violence inside Gaza, for potential inclusion in the Secretary-General’s annual report on the issue.

Initial recommendations

Ms. Patten’s recommendations include a call for the Israeli Government to grant full access to the UN human rights office (OHCHR) and the Human Rights Council-mandated independent Commission of Inquiry on the occupied territory “to conduct fully-fledged independent investigations into all alleged violations”, according to the press release.

She called on Hamas to immediately and unconditionally release all those being held as hostages and to ensure their protection, including from sexual violence.

Ms. Patten also called on all relevant and competent bodies to bring all perpetrators of sexual violence to justice while offering the full support of her office to bolster national efforts.

She also called for the highest standards of information integrity in reporting and handling of sexual violence cases, as the press release notes, “given the risks of inflammatory rhetoric and sensationalized headlines escalating tensions” along with media or political pressure which will only compound the trauma and stigmatization of survivors.

The Special Representative echoed the Secretary-General’s call for a humanitarian ceasefire and urged any ceasefire agreement to acknowledge the importance of recognizing sexual violence as a key issue and to allow affected communities to be heard.

She reiterated her profound sympathy and solidarity with all civilians impacted by the “brutal violence in the region” since 7 October.

 

[eldomtom2]

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147217
Just going to leave this here, a United Nations report into the use of sexual violence against victims and hostages taken on October 7 2023. Apologies for not quoting the report, it is very long.

Still think Hamas are "freedom fighters"?

Do you attach the same value to UN reports criticising Israel?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Do you attach the same value to UN reports criticising Israel?

Yes, why wouldn't I?

Unlike much of the pro-Palestinian lobby, who seem to expect that Israel should simply "turn the other cheek". Meanwhile Hamas can murder indiscriminately and use sexual assault as a weapon of war, and Western leftists will fall over each other to make excuses for it, or claim exaggeration (or worse).

 

[eldomtom2]

Yes, why wouldn't I?

Unlike much of the pro-Palestinian lobby, who seem to expect that Israel should simply "turn the other cheek".

So you agree, for instance, with this UN Human Rights Office report heavily criticising Israel?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So you agree, for instance, with this UN Human Rights Office report heavily criticising Israel?

I haven't read it and haven't time to do so now, but I will do. I already said that I take reports criticising Israel seriously, just as I do the one I posted a link to which criticised the terrorist attacks on October 7th.

It's quite telling though, that whenever there is independent criticism of the Palestinian side it is met with whataboutism.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I see Lammy now calling for immediate ceasefire but he can't escape from his original position being poor judgement.

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1766845857284972663

The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The UK government should:

- call for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire alongside the release of all hostages;
- ⁠demand Israel increase aid flows;
- ⁠do everything it can to get supplies to those in need;
- resume funding for UNWRA;
- ⁠support the status quo at Holy Sites in Jerusalem, including access for Muslims to worship at Al Aqsa.

As Ramadan begins, my letter to David Cameron

 

[brad465]

Took a while, but Israel now doesn't have the US's backing in the UN Security Council:

UN Security Council resolution calls for Gaza ceasefire

UN Security Council passes resolution calling for an "immediate ceasefire" in Gaza, as US shifts position by abstaining from vote

www.bbc.co.uk

The UN Security Council has passed a resolution calling for an "immediate ceasefire" in Gaza, after the US refrained from vetoing the measure in a change from its previous position.
The text also demands the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.
The body had been at an impasse since the war began in October, repeatedly failing to agree on a ceasefire call.
The move by the US signals growing divergence between it and its ally Israel over Israel's offensive in Gaza.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Took a while, but Israel now doesn't have the US's backing in the UN Security Council:

UN Security Council resolution calls for Gaza ceasefire

UN Security Council passes resolution calling for an "immediate ceasefire" in Gaza, as US shifts position by abstaining from vote

www.bbc.co.uk

Everyone knew what Israel was capable of and it was let off the leash by too many countries who now want a change of tack. Too late and with over thirty thousand Palestinians dead all those countries have blood on their hands.

 

[Silenos]

Everyone knew what Israel was capable of and it was let off the leash by too many countries who now want a change of tack. Too late and with over thirty thousand Palestinians dead all those countries have blood on their hands.

But this is just gesture politics anyway - it’s a non-binding resolution so it won’t have the slightest impact on Israel’s actions. And the US’s influence on Israel has proved to be pretty limited. Netanyahu knows that if he can drag the conflict out till November he has a good chance of getting a Trump government that will support him on anything he chooses to do to the Palestinians.