2023 Israel - Hamas war

[Loppylugs]

Everyone knew what Israel was capable of and it was let off the leash by too many countries who now want a change of tack. Too late and with over thirty thousand Palestinians dead all those countries have blood on their hands.

Nobody seems to be highlighting, or in my opinion anyway, the real culprits in all this. Hamas are funded, fed, watered and supplied weapons by Iran. I've seen nothing of Hamas or Iran rushing to help the Palestinians in any way whatsoever. Iran is content to let America take all the blame for what has been happening and Hamas want the Israelis to be seen as thoroughly bad apples the world over. Hamas must have a large supply of food and stores and could help the people they purport to "represent". This is a blatant lie and they don't care one jot how many civilians die. Likewise Iran, which surely has a large influence over Hamas' actions.
All those who go on marches blaming Israel totally for the debacle should perhaps look further afield.

 

[brad465]

Nobody seems to be highlighting, or in my opinion anyway, the real culprits in all this. Hamas are funded, fed, watered and supplied weapons by Iran. I've seen nothing of Hamas or Iran rushing to help the Palestinians in any way whatsoever. Iran is content to let America take all the blame for what has been happening and Hamas want the Israelis to be seen as thoroughly bad apples the world over. Hamas must have a large supply of food and stores and could help the people they purport to "represent". This is a blatant lie and they don't care one jot how many civilians die. Likewise Iran, which surely has a large influence over Hamas' actions.
All those who go on marches blaming Israel totally for the debacle should perhaps look further afield.

What do people dance to in an underground disco in Tehran?

"Iranian men, Hallelujah!"

 

[SynthD]

Hamas must have a large supply of food and stores and could help the people they purport to "represent".

Why must they? Why would they have collected enough food for two million people for half a year, plus losses to bombing and raids?

I expect Hamas did help, when they could. They probably quickly ran out of supplies.

 

[ainsworth74]

Netanyahu knows that if he can drag the conflict out till November he has a good chance of getting a Trump government that will support him on anything he chooses to do to the Palestinians.

I wouldn't be so sure that's the case. Trump holds a grudge and I'm doubtful he'll have forgiven Netanyahu for coming out and congratulating Biden on his win shortly after the race was called. Indeed AP carried the following report in late 2021:

JERUSALEM (AP) — Former President Donald Trump earlier this year lashed out with profanity at Benjamin Netanyahu for congratulating President Joe Biden on his victory in the U.S. election, an Israeli newspaper reported Friday.

Trump accused the former Israeli leader of disloyalty, saying he had helped Netanyahu in his own elections by reversing decades of U.S. policy and supporting Israel’s claims to territory seized in war. Trump is still falsely claiming the U.S. election was stolen from him.

In interviews earlier this year with the Israeli journalist Barak Ravid, Trump expressed fury at a video Netanyahu circulated online in which he congratulated Biden.

“Nobody did more for Bibi. And I liked Bibi. I still like Bibi,” Trump said, referring to Netanyahu by his nickname, in the remarks published by English language website of the Yediot Aharonot newspaper. “But I also like loyalty... Bibi could have stayed quiet. He has made a terrible mistake.”

[...]

Report: Trump slammed Netanyahu for congratulating Biden

An Israeli newspaper is reporting that former President Donald Trump earlier this year lashed out with profanity at Benjamin Netanyahu for congratulating President Joe Biden on his victory in the U.S. election.

apnews.com

I certainly wouldn't rule out Trump giving Bibi a blank cheque but equally I could well see him turning his back on Israel after the perceived disloyalty that Bibi showed.

I expect Hamas did help, when they could. They probably quickly ran out of supplies.

Would they? Hamas stands to benefit from the suffering of Palestinian civilians so doing little more than the bare minimum is likely to be in their own interest. Certainly I'm far from convinced that Hamas puts much value on the lives and interests of those that it purports to represent and fight for.

 

[brad465]

If he changes his mind and does boycott it might be a good way to avoid the embarrassment of a last placed finish (although will probably also lead to a spate of claims of being anti-Semitic):

Eurovision: Olly Alexander rejects boycott call over Israel-Gaza war

More than 450 artists and groups urged the singer to pull out of the contest over the inclusion of Israel.

www.bbc.co.uk

Olly Alexander has rejected calls to pull out of the Eurovision Song Contest in protest against Israel's inclusion.
The UK's entrant for this year's competition expressed his wish for peace, but said he believes in the unifying power of music.
He was responding to an open letter by more than 450 queer artists, individuals and groups urging him to boycott the event over the Gaza war.
The contest is taking place in May in Malmo, Sweden.
In a post on X, formerly Twitter, Alexander explained why he believes it is the right decision to stay in the competition.
"As a participant I've taken a lot of time to deliberate over what to do and the options available to me," he wrote.
"It is my current belief that removing myself from the contest wouldn't bring us any closer to our shared goal."

• Israel reveals its rewritten Eurovision song
• Israel back in Eurovision 2024 after lyric change
• Olly Alexander Eurovision song puts fans in a spin

Alexander said he had been speaking to some of the other Eurovision contestants, and they had agreed that by taking part in the contest, they could use their platform "to come together and call for peace".
The It's A Sin actor added that he "wholeheartedly" supported action being taken to demand a ceasefire in Gaza, as well as the return of all hostages.
"I hope and pray that our calls are answered and there is an end to the atrocities we are seeing taking place in Gaza."
It is understood that Alexander was not speaking on behalf of the BBC and he did not break the broadcaster's social media guidelines.

 

[Mogster]

Would they? Hamas stands to benefit from the suffering of Palestinian civilians so doing little more than the bare minimum is likely to be in their own interest. Certainly I'm far from convinced that Hamas puts much value on the lives and interests of those that it purports to represent and fight for.

For Hamas food is also a good way of leveraging the local Gaza population to do what they want.

 

[nw1]

Nobody seems to be highlighting, or in my opinion anyway, the real culprits in all this. Hamas are funded, fed, watered and supplied weapons by Iran. I've seen nothing of Hamas or Iran rushing to help the Palestinians in any way whatsoever. Iran is content to let America take all the blame for what has been happening and Hamas want the Israelis to be seen as thoroughly bad apples the world over. Hamas must have a large supply of food and stores and could help the people they purport to "represent". This is a blatant lie and they don't care one jot how many civilians die. Likewise Iran, which surely has a large influence over Hamas' actions.
All those who go on marches blaming Israel totally for the debacle should perhaps look further afield.

Yes, Hamas might have started it, but why should Netanyahu or the Israeli government be absolved of blame?

The outrage right now - not last October, but right now - is the number of Palestinians being killed or starving due to Netanyahu's cold blooded and violent campaign of attempting to end Hamas no matter what the human cost is.

 

[Silenos]

I certainly wouldn't rule out Trump giving Bibi a blank cheque but equally I could well see him turning his back on Israel after the perceived disloyalty that Bibi showed.

But we know that Trump a) admires strongmen, and b) can be bought. A generous personal donation and enough brutality towards the Palestinians, and Bibi would be a ‘very smart guy’.

Certainly I'm far from convinced that Hamas puts much value on the lives and interests of those that it purports to represent and fight for.

Absolutely. Hamas (at least the leadership) are ideologues and fanatics, meaning not only that they value the abstract ‘The People’ over individual lives, but they also know that the Will of The People conveniently wants the same as they do, regardless of how many of those individual lives are lost.

Bibi is an ideologue but not (unlike Ben Gvir and others in the coalition) a fanatic - his main aim now seems to me to prolong the war so he can stave off elections and stay in power and out of the courts. I think that’s why there’s a resurgence of rumblings about Lebanon and Hezbollah now Gaza is mostly rubble.

Iran is content to let America take all the blame for what has been happening and Hamas want the Israelis to be seen as thoroughly bad apples the world over.

But this is basic military strategy, isn’t it? ‘Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake’. The Israeli General Staff ought to be just as aware of this as Iran or Hamas. So either a) they don’t care about world (or American) opinion, b) they think the benefits of razing Gaza outweigh the disadvantages, or c) they have been out-strategised.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Now British aid volunteers among seven people killed by Israel but don't worry Netanyahu will look into it in due course

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68711282

Seven aid workers from the World Central Kitchen (WCK) have been killed in an Israeli air strike in Gaza, the charity's founder says.

 

[ainsworth74]

But we know that Trump a) admires strongmen, and b) can be bought. A generous personal donation and enough brutality towards the Palestinians, and Bibi would be a ‘very smart guy’.

Oh absolutely. I can totally see Trump just saying "bomb baby bomb" to Bibi with just a couple of ego strokes even perhaps without even any money changing hands spending totally non-suspicious amounts of money on hiring hotel rooms at Trump hotels. But equally the man does hold a grudge so I just don't think it's a foregone conclusion that Trump = Good For Bibi.

Bibi is an ideologue but not (unlike Ben Gvir and others in the coalition) a fanatic - his main aim now seems to me to prolong the war so he can stave off elections and stay in power and out of the courts. I think that’s why there’s a resurgence of rumblings about Lebanon and Hezbollah now Gaza is mostly rubble.

Yes that's one of the two reasons that I'm far from convinced that any kind of ceasefire (at least other than a temporary one) is likely anytime soon. Bibi knows he's toast once the conflict cools down again and may well be facing legal trouble seeing as he's not finished ramming through his judicial "reforms". The other reason is that I don't see that Hamas particularly thinks that what's happening is a bad thing in terms of furthering their own agenda.

 

[birchesgreen]

Oh absolutely. I can totally see Trump just saying "bomb baby bomb" to Bibi with just a couple of ego strokes even perhaps without even any money changing hands spending totally non-suspicious amounts of money on hiring hotel rooms at Trump hotels. But equally the man does hold a grudge so I just don't think it's a foregone conclusion that Trump = Good For Bibi.

The far-right in the US are looking into Gaza as potential lucrative seafront development. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump would like a hotel there.

 

[nw1]

The far-right in the US are looking into Gaza as potential lucrative seafront development. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump would like a hotel there.

Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if Trump is the sort of person that would do this.

 

[brad465]

The far-right in the US are looking into Gaza as potential lucrative seafront development. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump would like a hotel there.

Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if Trump is the sort of person that would do this.

If Gaza was not ruled by a terrorist organisation and also didn't have an oppressive neighbour intent on going OTT towards them, Gaza would probably be a very good city-state like Singapore or Monaco.

 

[nw1]

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147217
Just going to leave this here, a United Nations report into the use of sexual violence against victims and hostages taken on October 7 2023. Apologies for not quoting the report, it is very long.

Still think Hamas are "freedom fighters"?

I don't think anyone here is supporting Hamas or believe that they are freedom fighters.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Using rape is despicable- sounds like war crimes have been committed on both sides

 

[yorkie]

I hope those who disagreed with me earlier in the thread now accept what I was saying, after having had time to reflect, and seeing the (sadly predictable) humanitarian crisis unfold.

In other news:

https://twitter.com/jewishcouncilAU/status/1776399171031015700

The indomitable Miriam Margolyes OBE has a message in support of the Jewish Council! She calls for all of us Jews to “shout, beg, scream for a ceasefire”

https://twitter.com/MiddleEastMnt/status/1776986036981420499

The Jewish Council of Australia shares a message from 83-year-old Jewish woman Miriam Margolyes, expressing her shame towards Israel. She denounces Israel's actions, likening them to Hitler's victory, transforming them from their compassionate principles into a 'vicious, genocidal nationalist nation, pursuing and killing women and children.'

I don't agree with everything she has ever said/done, but this is absolutely spot on, and very brave.

Some people who appear to support, condone or justify the actions of Israel could certainly do with taking a leaf out of her book.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Something occurring? Jordan has temporarily closed its airspace.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/jordan-temporarily-close-airspace-state-media-says-2024-04-13/

April 13 (Reuters) - Jordan will temporarily close its airspace for several hours beginning at 11 p.m. (2000 GMT) to all incoming, departing and transit aircraft, state-owned Al Mamlaka news said on Saturday.
Aviation authorities cited by Al Mamlaka said the situation would be "continuously updated and reviewed according to developments".
Earlier on Saturday, Al-Mamlaka quoted Haitham Misto, the chairman of Jordan's Civil Aviation Regulatory Commission, as saying interference in Jordanian air traffic had affected its GPS system, prompting planes in the area to use alternative navigation systems.

There does seem to be some truth to it as several flights to Amman have diverted to places like Athens, Larnaca or Doha, or simply returned to their origin according to FR24.

Iran launches drones at Israel in retaliatory attack

Iran had been warning it was going to strike in response to an attack on its consulate in Syria.

www.bbc.co.uk

Speak of the devil.

Iran has launched drones at Israel, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said on Saturday night.
It said the wave could take hours to reach Israel.
It comes after days of anticipation that Iran was preparing to attack Israel in retaliation for a strike which killed a top Iranian commander.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the country's defence systems have been deployed and that Israel's armed forces were ready.
"I established a clear principle - whoever hurts us, we hurt him. We will protect ourselves from any threat and we will do so with coolness and determination," he said.

 

[brad465]

Well don't book anything in life next year, with it all kicking off in the Middle East and Russia making progress in Ukraine, WW3 looks imminent (if not already here).

 

[Belperpete]

Sadly once again Israel has only itself to blame. When it launched a direct attack on Iranian sovereign territory it was escalating the situation, and made it almost inevitable that Iran would respond. A pity that the USA didn't do much to condemn that Israeli action. It seems that whatever Israel does, the US will have their back.

 

[brad465]

Sadly once again Israel has only itself to blame. When it launched a direct attack on Iranian sovereign territory it was escalating the situation, and made it almost inevitable that Iran would respond. A pity that the USA didn't do much to condemn that Israeli action. It seems that whatever Israel does, the US will have their back.

An embassy/consulate is not the sovereign territory of the country represented in it, that's a myth. That doesn't mean what Israel did was justified, but that's the technicality here.

 

[Russel]

Well don't book anything in life next year, with it all kicking off in the Middle East and Russia making progress in Ukraine, WW3 looks imminent (if not already here).

The Middle East has always been a volatile place and for every mile of progress Russia makes in Ukraine, it costs them heavily in men and equipment.

I wouldn't panic about WW3 just yet.

Maybe avoid The Daily Express for a few days though...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The Middle East has always been a volatile place and for every mile of progress Russia makes in Ukraine, it costs them heavily in men and equipment.

I wouldn't panic about WW3 just yet.

Maybe avoid The Daily Express for a few days though...

No but it has the potential to unsettle the financial mkts and push up price of oil and thus dissuade the bank of England from lowering rates if it persists.

 

[brad465]

The Middle East has always been a volatile place and for every mile of progress Russia makes in Ukraine, it costs them heavily in men and equipment.

I wouldn't panic about WW3 just yet.

Maybe avoid The Daily Express for a few days though...

Fair enough, I can see Russia taking a large deal of Ukraine, but then being stuck with a USSR in Afghanistan-style guerrilla war that makes further advances more difficult.

Iran seems to be powerful through proxies, but if it got into direct conflict with someone like the US they would be in trouble. The regime there is already weak, given the unrest it was seeing in recent years over women's rights.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I hope those who disagreed with me earlier in the thread now accept what I was saying, after having had time to reflect, and seeing the (sadly predictable) humanitarian crisis unfold.

In other news:

https://twitter.com/jewishcouncilAU/status/1776399171031015700

https://twitter.com/MiddleEastMnt/status/1776986036981420499

I don't agree with everything she has ever said/done, but this is absolutely spot on, and very brave.

Some people who appear to support, condone or justify the actions of Israel could certainly do with taking a leaf out of her book.

No. You are absolutely wrong.

 

[yorkie]

No. You are absolutely wrong.

Please enlighten me.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Well don't book anything in life next year, with it all kicking off in the Middle East and Russia making progress in Ukraine, WW3 looks imminent (if not already here).

Iran has to be seen to do something but appears to be using Shahed 131 and 136 drones which will take about 9 hours to reach Israel. It’s retaliation but it’s carefully calculated retaliation that Israel can deal with pretty easily with Patriot and David’s Sling.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

War has been a relatively normal occurrence since the dawn of time, we are probably well overdue a global event such as WW3. Sometimes it is the only way to truly move forward. The lack of a global war until now has possibly just provided a ropey period of prolonged tensions, regional instability and ever escalating, albeit more localised conflicts.

Nuclear weapons definitely change the dynamics of war, but I very much doubt anyone would actually use them, at least not civilisation ending ones. Even Russia can't bring themselves to use one in Ukraine.

The Israel/Iran situation clearly can't be handled through diplomacy - they're both fundamentally opposed to the existence of the other. Decades of talks have clearly just delayed the inevitable.

Reports on mainstream media (BBC etc) claiming that Iran has launched cruise missiles as well as drones. IF this is true, the relatively feeble drones make sense - overwhelm air defence resources and weaponry with the drones, and give the cruise missiles a better chance of reaching their target.

 

[Mogster]

This seems odd. The drones are chugging their way accross Iraq currently so their appears to be no element of surprise.

Is this as suggested for some time low tech attack to deplete Iron Dome of missiles? Will they be followed up by ballistic missiles when the IDF missile defence is busy?

Edit…

Yes seems ballistic missiles are incoming also.

 

[Scotrail314209]

War has been a relatively normal occurrence since the dawn of time, we are probably well overdue a global event such as WW3. Sometimes it is the only way to truly move forward. The lack of a global war until now has possibly just provided a ropey period of prolonged tensions, regional instability and ever escalating, albeit more localised conflicts.

Nuclear weapons definitely change the dynamics of war, but I very much doubt anyone would actually use them, at least not civilisation ending ones. Even Russia can't bring themselves to use one in Ukraine.

The Israel/Iran situation clearly can't be handled through diplomacy - they're both fundamentally opposed to the existence of the other. Decades of talks have clearly just delayed the inevitable.

Reports on mainstream media (BBC etc) claiming that Iran has launched cruise missiles as well as drones. IF this is true, the relatively feeble drones make sense - overwhelm air defence resources and weaponry with the drones, and give the cruise missiles a better chance of reaching their target.

I think for a lot of people (myself included), it is a particularly scary time, because the thought of a global war has been too far fetched, as the vast majority of us weren't alive during WW2.

Whenever WW3 is mentioned people automatically go to the nuclear weapons tactic, which I agree probably won't be used, but it's still rather scary. I just hope cool heads can prevail and that the US (and the UK+NATO) use whatever influence they have to try and keep things calm.

 

[brad465]

War has been a relatively normal occurrence since the dawn of time, we are probably well overdue a global event such as WW3. Sometimes it is the only way to truly move forward. The lack of a global war until now has possibly just provided a ropey period of prolonged tensions, regional instability and ever escalating, albeit more localised conflicts.

Nuclear weapons definitely change the dynamics of war, but I very much doubt anyone would actually use them, at least not civilisation ending ones. Even Russia can't bring themselves to use one in Ukraine.

I'm of the belief that the winner of WW3 will be nature. Even if nukes are not used and humanity survives the conventional warfare, the conflict will expedite climate change, both through other priorities and the war itself being a big polluter, to the point humanity will be in real trouble after, regardless of which side won on the battlefield.