21:30 St Pancras to Glasgow (1970s)

[TurboFintan]

Hello guys, first post from me!

I am making a scenario for the TS2017 Train Simulator game and I want to re-create the overnight trains that went via the Settle & Carlisle line in the mid 70s. I believe the down train was the 21:30 St Pancras to Glasgow via Leeds and the up train being the 22:50 from Glasgow to St Pancras. Being specific the year was 1975.

I believe the down train had a formation of:

Corridor Second (detached at Nottingham)
Corridor Second (detached at Nottingham)
Sleeper Composite (attached at Nottingham)
Sleeper Second (attached at Nottingham)
Corridor Second
Corridor Brake Second
Corridor Second
Corridor Second
Corridor Composite
Brake Van
Brake Van (detached at Leeds?)

So, I am curious as to know what stations they called at and what times they arrived/departed the stations. Also please correct me if I got the services and/or formations wrong!

Much appreciated!

 

[Foxcote]

Welcome to the Forum TurboFintan. I left the S&C in Sept '68. At that time the Up train was booked a request stop at Appleby if required. The request had to be made through the Booking Office before a certain time. Operationally it was easy to do as there was a stop signal at the end of the Up platform. It was used perhaps 2/3 times per week on average. The was no request stop on the Down train. Hope that helps.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

I can help you here as I still have my copy of the 1974/75 GB Passenger Timetable.

SX
St Pancras dep: 2130
Kettering arr: 2229
Kettering dep: 2232
Leicester arr: 2302
Leicester dep: 2310
Loughborough dep: 2323
Nottingham arr: 2339
Nottingham dep: 2354
Derby arr: 0019
Derby dep: 0026
Chesterfield dep: 0053
Sheffield arr: 0114
Sheffield dep: 0123
Rotherham [Masborough] arr: 0131
Rotherham [Masborough] dep: 0135
Leeds arr: 0217
Leeds dep: 0233
Skipton arr: 0307
Skipton dep: 0313
Appleby arr: 0417
Appleby dep: 0420
Carlisle arr: 0458
Carlisle dep: 0513
Annan arr: 0532
Dumfries arr: 0550
Kirkconnel arr: 0627
Kilmarnock arr: 0657
Kilmarnock dep: 0707
Glasgow Central arr: 0747

The SO service had increasingly later timings from Nottingham onwards, arriving in Glasgow at 0833.

The Sunday service had slightly different timings from Kettering onwards, but arrived in Glasgow at the same 0747 on the Monday morning.

Will that do?!

I think you're right about there being two sleeping coaches attached at Nottingham, and I used to see them stowed in the bay platform no. 2 awaiting the arrival of this train. I never witnessed it, but my guess is the loco of the incoming train performed the shunting operation (can't remember is there was still an 08 around to do it at that time) with the sleepers attached to what would then be the rear of the train. The usual practice at Nottingham would then be for another loco, which would have been waiting in one of the centre roads, to go onto the other end of the train to head off for Derby.
On the few times I travelled (in the daytime) from Nottingham over the Settle & Carlisle the same thing happened on reversal at Leeds (i.e. the loco didn't run round).

 

[G0ORC]

Hello guys, first post from me!

I am making a scenario for the TS2017 Train Simulator game and I want to re-create the overnight trains that went via the Settle & Carlisle line in the mid 70s. I believe the down train was the 21:30 St Pancras to Glasgow via Leeds and the up train being the 22:50 from Glasgow to St Pancras. Being specific the year was 1975.

I believe the down train had a formation of:

Corridor Second (detached at Nottingham)
Corridor Second (detached at Nottingham)
Sleeper Composite (attached at Nottingham)
Sleeper Second (attached at Nottingham)
Corridor Second
Corridor Brake Second
Corridor Second
Corridor Second
Corridor Composite
Brake Van
Brake Van (detached at Leeds?)

So, I am curious as to know what stations they called at and what times they arrived/departed the stations. Also please correct me if I got the services and/or formations wrong!

Much appreciated!

I worked in Nottingham Control in the 70s and you are mostly correct on the down train but the formation is awry. The two sleepers were placed in Platform 2 bay with the forward train engine attached for heating purposes around 2130. On arrival of 1S24, the incoming engine came off to Nottingham HS, the forward engine would shunt the sleepers onto the coaches before running round and working the train forward via Derby to Sheffield and Leeds.

I can't remember the exact formation but I don't think there were that many passenger carrying vehicles. My somewhat defective memory says four passenger vehicles, two sleepers and about 4 or 5 parcel vans. It did not attach anything other than 2 sleepers at Nottingham. The four passenger vehicles that arrived from London went forward to Glasgow to return in circuit on 1M98.

Southbound you are incorrect. In the 70s the return working I would catch regularly to work in Nottingham from Derby. The train was 1M98 2250 Glasgow to NOTTINGHAM, not St. Pancras, leaving Derby at 0618. On arrival at Nottingham the whole train would run to Nottingham CS, the sleepers were detached, and the remainder of the train, 4 passenger vehicles and the parcel vans formed 3C01 1006 Nottingham PCD - Cricklewood parcels. This train then would form that evenings' 1S24.

As far as I am aware, the only vehicles detached at Leeds were parcel vehicles.

Hope that helps...

 

[Merthyr Imp]

G0ORC is correct as per the 1974/75 timetable at any rate - the 2250 from Glasgow was to Nottingham only. I can copy out the timings if you wish.

 

[TurboFintan]

Many thanks for the fantastic replies! They are really helpful.

Foxcote, thank you for the welcome and the useful input on the service at Appleby.

Merthyr Imp, thanks for the calling points and their timings - they are very useful and I would like the southbound timings as that would be even better.

G0ORC, I'd expected the southbound train to continue on to St Pancras but knowing it terminated at Nottingham is new to me. As for the formation I had it written down ages ago so I may have gotten it from the book "Passenger Train Formations 1923 – 83 LMS-LM Region” by Clive S. Carter which unfortunately I no longer have.

Again thank you for the replies and do keep them coming.

 

[AJP62]

One thing I remember about this train was it used some of the old LMS sleepers until quite late.

M60xM kind of numbering.

 

[D1009]

I think you're right about there being two sleeping coaches attached at Nottingham, and I used to see them stowed in the bay platform no. 2 awaiting the arrival of this train. I never witnessed it, but my guess is the loco of the incoming train performed the shunting operation (can't remember is there was still an 08 around to do it at that time) with the sleepers attached to what would then be the rear of the train. The usual practice at Nottingham would then be for another loco, which would have been waiting in one of the centre roads, to go onto the other end of the train to head off for Derby.

Wouldn't a loco have been needed to heat the sleeper coaches prior to the train arriving?

 

[30907]

Wouldn't a loco have been needed to heat the sleeper coaches prior to the train arriving?

Indeed, see post by G0ORC

 

[D1009]

Indeed, see post by G0ORC

Sorry, I can't believe I missed that post in such a short thread. Old age kicking in!

 

[Bevan Price]

Many thanks for the fantastic replies! They are really helpful.

Foxcote, thank you for the welcome and the useful input on the service at Appleby.

Merthyr Imp, thanks for the calling points and their timings - they are very useful and I would like the southbound timings as that would be even better.

G0ORC, I'd expected the southbound train to continue on to St Pancras but knowing it terminated at Nottingham is new to me. As for the formation I had it written down ages ago so I may have gotten it from the book "Passenger Train Formations 1923 – 83 LMS-LM Region” by Clive S. Carter which unfortunately I no longer have.

Again thank you for the replies and do keep them coming.

It terminated at Nottingham starting with the 1972/1973 timetable. In the previous 2 timetables (1970/1971 & 1971/1972), it had run to London Euston (arr. 10:21), calling at Leicester & Northampton.

 

[Far north 37]

were these all class 45 hauled

 

[Merthyr Imp]

OK, the southbound SX service in the 1974/75 timetable:

Glasgow Central dep: 2250
Kilmarnock dep: 2332
Kirkconnel dep: 0005
Dumfries dep: 0038
Annan dep: 0058
Carlisle arr: 0123
Carlisle dep: 0138
Skipton arr: 0325
Skipton dep: 0329
Leeds arr: 0401
Leeds dep: 0420
Sheffield arr: 0510
Sheffield dep: 0523
Chesterfield dep: 0543
Derby arr: 0613
Derby dep: 0619
Nottingham arr: 0644

 

[TurboFintan]

OK, the southbound SX service in the 1974/75 timetable:

Glasgow Central dep: 2250
Kilmarnock dep: 2332
Kirkconnel dep: 0005
Dumfries dep: 0038
Annan dep: 0058
Carlisle arr: 0123
Carlisle dep: 0138
Skipton arr: 0325
Skipton dep: 0329
Leeds arr: 0401
Leeds dep: 0420
Sheffield arr: 0510
Sheffield dep: 0523
Chesterfield dep: 0543
Derby arr: 0613
Derby dep: 0619
Nottingham arr: 0644

Thanks for the southbound timings Merthyr Imp. I'm guessing there would have been a connecting train to London from Nottingham.

It terminated at Nottingham starting with the 1972/1973 timetable. In the previous 2 timetables (1970/1971 & 1971/1972), it had run to London Euston (arr. 10:21), calling at Leicester & Northampton.

So it must have travelled via the Market Harborough to Northampton line until its closure to passenger workings. Still I find it strange it wasn't diverted to St Pancras.

 

[deltic]

The formation according to LMR 1975 Marshalling circular was

On departure from London St Pancras

2TSO
SK
BSK
2SK
CK
BG
BG (SX)

On departure from Nottingham

SLSTP
SLF
SK
BSK
2SK
CK
BG
BG (SX)

On departure from Derby

3 GUV SX
SLSTP
SLF
SK
BSK
2SK
CK
BG
BG (SX)


On departure from Leeds

3 GUV SX
SLSTP
SLF
SK
BSK
2SK
CK
BG
BG (SX)
GUV (SX)

On departure from Kilmarnock

2 GUV SX
SLSTP
SLF
SK
BSK
2SK
CK
BG
BG (SX)
GUV (SX)

22.50 Glasgow to Nottingham SX

On departure from Glasgow

2 GUV
BG
SLSTP
SLF
CK
2SK
BSK
SK

On departure from Kilmarnock

3 GUV
BG
SLSTP
SLF
CK
2SK
BSK
SK

On departure from Carlisle

BG
4 GUV
BG
SLSTP
SLF
CK
2SK
BSK
SK

BG removed and BG added at Leeds

Seating accommodation then went forward as part of the 10.40 Nottingham to St Pancras to form that evenings return working to Glasgow

 

[Merthyr Imp]

Thanks for the southbound timings Merthyr Imp. I'm guessing there would have been a connecting train to London from Nottingham.

There was an 0700 departure from Nottingham to St Pancras (arr: 0911).

From Derby there was an 0650 to St Pancras, but it was almost allstations, and didn't get to London until 0939.

The next departures from Chesterfield or Sheffield were not until 'The Master Cutler' at 0715 from the latter (arr. St Pancras 0945).

Re motive power, in those days and later it would be a 45/0 (most likely north of Leeds) or 45/1. Could still have been a 47, but as the 1970s wore on they became less common and by the time the HSTs came along it was practically always a 45/1 between Sheffield and London.

 

[30907]

It terminated at Nottingham starting with the 1972/1973 timetable. In the previous 2 timetables (1970/1971 & 1971/1972), it had run to London Euston (arr. 10:21), calling at Leicester & Northampton.

A fascinating detail that I'd totally forgotten. Presumably an attempt to centralise sleeper stabling arrangements at Wembley - eventually fulfilled of course!

 

[oldman]

In the previous 2 timetables (1970/1971 & 1971/1972), it had run to London Euston (arr. 10:21), calling at Leicester & Northampton.

Was it only the previous 2 timetables? I remember travelling Euston to Nottingham on the 2100, but I think it must have been no later than 1969.

 

[SouthDevonian]

I caught this train from Euston as far as Kilmarnock one Saturday night in 1971. It had electric haulage as far as Northampton then Peaks. Can't remember if the Peaks ran round or were changed at Nottingham and Leeds. I do remember a load of noisy drunks getting off at Rotherham determined to wake everyone up. Perhaps that was one of the reasons why this train was so much cheaper to use than the WCML overnights.

I had always assumed the route that was taken between Rotherham and Leeds was via the old Midland Main Line through Cudworth but PSUL implies that it went via Turners Lane Jn (east of Wakefield Kirkgate) at that time.

By the way the south end terminus was Euston in the 1969 timetable but was St Pancras in 1967 (I don't have the 1968 timetable).

 

[TurboFintan]

The formation according to LMR 1975 Marshalling circular was

Thanks! The in-depth information about its formation both ways is excellent. I'm happy I wasn't too far off with the formation, just needed to add and remove GUVs in the set.

One thing I remember about this train was it used some of the old LMS sleepers until quite late.

M60xM kind of numbering.

Interesting, I had Mk1 sleepers in mind for this train but they could have been used on the WCML sleepers instead at the time.

were these all class 45 hauled

According to Merthyr Imp (see post #16), most of them would have been class 45 hauled.

I caught this train from Euston as far as Kilmarnock one Saturday night in 1971. It had electric haulage as far as Northampton then Peaks. Can't remember if the Peaks ran round or were changed at Nottingham and Leeds. I do remember a load of noisy drunks getting off at Rotherham determined to wake everyone up. Perhaps that was one of the reasons why this train was so much cheaper to use than the WCML overnights.

I had always assumed the route that was taken between Rotherham and Leeds was via the old Midland Main Line through Cudworth but PSUL implies that it went via Turners Lane Jn (east of Wakefield Kirkgate) at that time.

By the way the south end terminus was Euston in the 1969 timetable but was St Pancras in 1967 (I don't have the 1968 timetable).

According to the 1962 timetable, the train was the 21:30 London St Pancras to Glasgow St Enoch and the return 21:25 from Glasgow to St Pancras. Maybe someone here could find when the service was transferred to Euston until 1972/1973.

 

[Dr Hoo]

From checking old timetables it switched from St Pancras to Euston in May 1969. Unfortunately the main LM regional timetable had already gone to press with the 2100 departure shown from St Pancras but a column note 'B' saying that sleepers were only from Northampton, at 2210! This mix-up was corrected in the supplement (remember them?).

On a related note I have heard it claimed that the routeing involved a greater aggregate length of tunnel than any other main line train in British history.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

On a related note I have heard it claimed that the routeing involved a greater aggregate length of tunnel than any other main line train in British history.

That's quite a claim! Im sure this forum will test whether it stands up to scrutiny.

For my part, I would break that down as;

Park Street Tunnel
Primrose Hill Tunnel
Kensal Green Tunnel
Watford Tunnel
Northchurch Tunnel
Linslade Tunnel
Hunsbury Hill Tunnel
Kelmarsh Tunnel
Oxendon Tunnel
Red Hill Tunnel
Milford Tunnel
Toadmoor Tunnel
Clay Cross Tunnel
Bradway Tunnel
(Tunnel at south end of Sheffield)
(Tunnels at north end of Sheffield - Nunnery?)
Thackley Tunnel
Bingley Tunnel
Stainforth Tunnel
Blea Moor Tunnel
Rise Hill Tunnel
Moorcock Tunnel
Shotlock Hill Tunnel
Birkett Tunnel
Crosby Garrett Tunnel
Helm Tunnel
Culgaith Tunnel
Waste Bank Tunnel
Lazonby Tunnel
Baron Wood Tunnel No.1
Baron Wood Tunnel No.2
Armathwaite Tunnel

I can't think of any others, although my knowledge of the GSWR is fairly limited and I might have overlooked smaller structures en-route. I'll leave it to someone else to calculate the total lengths and percentage of total route miles!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Great list!

Drumlanrig
Mossgiel

On the GSW

Another 2090 yards, or so, I think.

 

[RichmondCommu]

That's quite a claim! Im sure this forum will test whether it stands up to scrutiny.

For my part, I would break that down as;

Park Street Tunnel
Primrose Hill Tunnel
Kensal Green Tunnel
Watford Tunnel
Northchurch Tunnel
Linslade Tunnel
Hunsbury Hill Tunnel
Kelmarsh Tunnel
Oxendon Tunnel
Red Hill Tunnel
Milford Tunnel
Toadmoor Tunnel
Clay Cross Tunnel
Bradway Tunnel
(Tunnel at south end of Sheffield)
(Tunnels at north end of Sheffield - Nunnery?)
Thackley Tunnel
Bingley Tunnel
Stainforth Tunnel
Blea Moor Tunnel
Rise Hill Tunnel
Moorcock Tunnel
Shotlock Hill Tunnel
Birkett Tunnel
Crosby Garrett Tunnel
Helm Tunnel
Culgaith Tunnel
Waste Bank Tunnel
Lazonby Tunnel
Baron Wood Tunnel No.1
Baron Wood Tunnel No.2
Armathwaite Tunnel

I can't think of any others, although my knowledge of the GSWR is fairly limited and I might have overlooked smaller structures en-route. I'll leave it to someone else to calculate the total lengths and percentage of total route miles!

Please can I add Wingfield Tunnel. Especially as it's very close to my Mum's house!

 

[Rover]

Please can I add Wingfield Tunnel. Especially as it's very close to my Mum's house!

You may!

Also, there would be times the down train would take the dive-under south of Sheffield station to access platform 1.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I knew there would be a couple more
Equally if you calculate based on the diagram then the ECS move from Willesden also did the Up Empty Carriage Line tunnel from Camden Jcn to midway down Camden Bank. I've always found that tunnel absolutely fascinating, particularly because it passed underneath the Regents Canal whereas the rest of the WCML went over it! The clearance between the roof of the tunnel (equally the catenary!) and the bottom of the canal must have been tight, probably explains why it flooded regularly.

 

[Bevan Price]

From checking old timetables it switched from St Pancras to Euston in May 1969. Unfortunately the main LM regional timetable had already gone to press with the 2100 departure shown from St Pancras but a column note 'B' saying that sleepers were only from Northampton, at 2210! This mix-up was corrected in the supplement (remember them?).

On a related note I have heard it claimed that the routeing involved a greater aggregate length of tunnel than any other main line train in British history.

In the (May) 1968 timetable, there were 2 sleepers from St. Pancras,
21:15 to Edinburgh via Nottingham, and
21:30 to Glasgow via Derby - plus a 3rd sleeper on summer Fridays only (21:20 to Glasgow via Nottingham)

and a further sleeper to Leeds via Derby (at 00:05) was withdrawn during the course of that timetable.

 

[308165]

Hi,

I've been reading this thread with interest. I have one slightly odd extra detail to add.

The 1972/73 WTT shows the 2130 (SO) St Pancras - Glasgow as making a call at Garsdale at 0434 (Sunday morning) to set down newspapers. The station at Garsdale had closed in 1970, but my guess is that this stop had been added in to deal with overnight possessions on the WCML which was being electrified at the time and Garsdale was being used instead of Oxenholme to drop off newspapers.

During the same period WCML overnight trains were being diverted via the S&C.

 

[deltic]

1/4 million passengers used that station every week.....and they shut it. Have you ever heard anything so insane as that?

What station are you referring to?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

What station are you referring to?

Probably not Garsdale.