24 TPH in 1961

[D7666]

Under several different assorted threads the subject of 24 TPH comes up again and again - often directly with Thameslink core or referring to TL core w.r.t. other routes, and or ding this into or from terminal station.

For you entertainment, attached is a photo from part of a page of 01/1961 Trains Illustrated that shows TWO parallel flows of 24 TPH - and more - from Liverpool Street evening peak. This article is a little ahead of the actual situation as the full electric services had not yet started.

Both the Electric and Suburban have 24 TPH, the Mains 21 TPH.

Admittedly this is outbound departing trains evening high peak, and I don't have the gen for inbound morning high peak, but it does show what could be done with clockwork manually controlled signalling and manually driven trains following G YY Y R lights SIXTY PLUS YEARS AGO.

Someone with some time to spare might like to post the current 17:00-18:00 evening peak - but things are obviously different these days as Eliz line has removed that entire service group from the LST Electric lines.

Image from TI duly acknowledged.

 

[Snow1964]

9 trains an hour on Chingford line, some running fast from Liverpool Street to St James Street in 11 minutes.

The current TfL overground offering is not in same league, although of course the opening of Victoria line diverted some of the passengers.

 

[The Planner]

Both the Electric and Suburban have 24 TPH, the Mains 21 TPH.

Admittedly this is outbound departing trains evening high peak, and I don't have the gen for inbound morning high peak, but it does show what could be done with clockwork manually controlled signalling and manually driven trains following G YY Y R lights SIXTY PLUS YEARS AGO.

Are driving practices comparable in those 60 years?

 

[Taunton]

There was a further full article a few years later, when the same magazine had become Modern Railways, that described it all on the GEML in the evening peak. Notable were the crossings of semi-fast trains from Main to Electric as they got further out, plus some services that started on the Electric, actually crossed to the Main beyond Stratford to overtake the one in front, and then crossed back. This all on tracks paired by use, so needing weaving in with the incomings. There weren't any carriage sidings at Liverpool Street either, so the inward service needed to be just as dense to provide the following outbound services.

When described in general terms at least one modern day operator said the descriptions were "impossible", until the detail was posted.

It wasn't much different out of London Bridge or Waterloo.

Are driving practices comparable in those 60 years?

Well I certainly don't remember one going through the buffers at Enfield Town, as happened a year or two ago ...

 

[Horizon22]

The reliability of such a service today with fast, semi-fast and terminating services sharing the same line, with the passenger numbers of today, dwell times and even the hint of lateness/delay and disruption be appalling.

 

[Class 170101]

Realistically 24tph is a struggle now on most mainlines. However the crossing moves do reduce capacity if you wanted 24tph on all lines, a crossing move reduces this.

Metro services are a different matter assuming they stay on the same lines.

 

[Taunton]

The reliability of such a service today with fast, semi-fast and terminating services sharing the same line, with the passenger numbers of today, dwell times and even the hint of lateness/delay and disruption be appalling.

I'm pretty sure the passenger numbers were well above today, maybe not annual but certainly the peak hour. There was no Victoria Line to NE London, so the Chingford/Enfield services took a far heavier load, 9 emu cars on each train. Likewise the GEML took far greater numbers than now - living in East London and working in The City/West End was far more concentrated than now. There was very heavy usage of local bus services onwards from suburban stations to the housing areas.

Extensive use was made of the returning Fast lines so outwards suburban services came back ecs nonstop for a further load - something which seems beyond understanding nowadays, with a "THESE are my lines, and THOSE are yours" attitude.

 

[Snow1964]

Realistically 24tph is a struggle now on most mainlines. However the crossing moves do reduce capacity if you wanted 24tph on all lines, a crossing move reduces this.

Metro services are a different matter assuming they stay on the same lines.

There were some quadruple lead crossovers at Bethnal Green, and from memory also near Stratford. They were fairly slow though, only 20 or 25mph, so couldn't accelerate until clear.

Off top of my head, I can't think of any locations now where 4 trains can switch pairs of tracks simultaneously. And even if it is timetabled, needs staff that can achieve it day in, day out, without being more than few seconds late at these pinch points.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm pretty sure the passenger numbers were well above today, maybe not annual but certainly the peak hour.

Mad that you think that passenger numbers in the 1960s were above the 21st century! Just think of the capacity of a 345 compared to any of the stock running then.

Extensive use was made of the returning Fast lines so outwards suburban services came back ecs nonstop for a further load - something which seems beyond understanding nowadays, with a "THESE are my lines, and THOSE are yours" attitude.

I'm not talking about that, but for instance the 1707 Gidea Park service must be right behind the 1704 Shenfield stopper and I doubt how "fast" it would be in practice and as mentioned the tiniest perturbation throws the timetable out of the window.

The best way to get reliable capacity is a consistent service level pattern, which is why London Underground does it.

For anyone interested, this is the same pattern now (times taken from Stratford). High peak 16tph service.

 

[Ediswan]

I'm pretty sure the passenger numbers were well above today, maybe not annual but certainly the peak hour. There was no Victoria Line to NE London, so the Chingford/Enfield services took a far heavier load, 9 emu cars on each train

From memory, occasionally 12. Though a vaguer memory says that was on Saturdays when Spurs were playing at home.

 

[greenline712]

I recall stories of driving practices around the 1960s, where drivers got so used to driving under constant single yellows that they no longer treated them with the respect they required.
It was also the case that, with shoe brakes, as opposed to today's disc brakes, drivers could rely on stopping distances being maintained, such that drivers would approach platforms at speed and "drop the handle" to stop within the platform every time ... no nonsense about "leaf fall"!!
There were more near misses as well .... and the present safety culture would not allow these to happen.
Finally .... is not the Overground south from Dalston Junction now on 20TPH?

 

[30907]

I'm not talking about that, but for instance the 1707 Gidea Park service must be right behind the 1704 Shenfield stopper and I doubt how "fast" it would be in practice and as mentioned the tiniest perturbation throws the timetable out of the window.

I remember being impressed by that article (not that I read it until 10 years later!).
IIRC the xx07 etc were the ones that went Main Line at Bethnal Green, then back again having overtaken the stopper.

Curiously, having looked on www.timetableworld.com, I can't find evidence of the proposed Electric Lines service described actually having operated - maybe the operators overruled the planners, or maybe passenger numbers had dropped, but the established 18tph service seems to have continued.

How disappointing!

 

[skyhigh]

Well I certainly don't remember one going through the buffers at Enfield Town, as happened a year or two ago ...

How many SPADs/station overruns/near misses were there that simply went unreported?

 

[Carlisle]

How many SPADs/station overruns/near misses were there that simply went unreported?

I doubt many went unreported but bosses probably had far more leeway in what could or couldn’t ultimately be overlooked

 

[Magdalia]

The significant difference between the Great Eastern in 1961 and Thameslink now is station stops. The Great Eastern did not attempt to run 24 tph calling at 3 stations less than a mile apart, like Thameslink do at Blackfriars, City Thameslink and Farringdon. 24 tph is much more difficult to achieve with station stops, where dwell time plus reoccupation time have to be got down to less than 150 seconds. The Great Eastern never tried to do that.

In the 1960s 24 tph on the Electric Lines was only out as far as Bow Junction, with no intermediate stations.

for instance the 1707 Gidea Park service must be right behind the 1704 Shenfield stopper and I doubt how "fast" it would be in practice

The 1707 Gidea Park crossed to the Main Line at Bow Junction, then back onto the Electric Line at Goodmayes.

24 tph on the Suburban Lines was only out to just beyond Bethnal Green, with one station. Only 6 tph called at Bethnal Green, 3tph to Chingford and 3 tph to Enfield Town. Everything else went through Bethnal Green non-stop. The Thameslink equivalent would be to run 24 tph from Blackfriars, but everything running non-stop to at least West Hampstead or Finsbury Park, apart from 3 tph to each stopping at St Pancras.

There weren't any carriage sidings at Liverpool Street either, so the inward service needed to be just as dense to provide the following outbound services.

The Electric Line service was all operated out of platforms 14-18 at Liverpool Street. The Suburban Line service had relative luxury with platforms 1-6 available.

manually controlled signalling and manually driven trains following G YY Y R lights

All of the London end of the Great Eastern on both routes was operated on triple double yellows that is G YY YY YY Y R. It was rare to see a green light during the peaks.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

It’s not plain line capacity which is the issue, it’s station dwell times. I know the 306s were sliding door, but the 307s were slam door and so station dwell times were much lower.

 

[PeterC]

All of the London end of the Great Eastern on both routes was operated on triple double yellows that is G YY YY YY Y R. It was rare to see a green light during the peaks.

I remember when I commuted on the Electric Lines in the 60s and 70s you would hardly ever hear the bell if you sat behind the cab.

 

[Bikeman78]

The reliability of such a service today with fast, semi-fast and terminating services sharing the same line, with the passenger numbers of today, dwell times and even the hint of lateness/delay and disruption be appalling.

With that frequency, you would still get home even if everything was late. The other day, I spent several hours on the Piccadilly line. I had a working timetable with me, so I could tell that everything was running about 15 minutes late but I bet 99% of the public didn't even notice.

 

[Horizon22]

The 1707 Gidea Park crossed to the Main Line at Bow Junction, then back onto the Electric Line at Goodmayes.

I remember being impressed by that article (not that I read it until 10 years later!).
IIRC the xx07 etc were the ones that went Main Line at Bethnal Green, then back again having overtaken the stopper.

Then it is not comparable and the article describing it as an “Electric Line” service is a bit disingenuous.

You’d have to compare individual stations, some of which didn’t get near 24tph. Every station west of Harold Wood gets a 16tph high peak service today.

 

[Alfie1014]

I think though the article is dated 1961, electrification between Chelmsford and Colchester was not completed until summer 1962 so the actual service pattern shown may have been aspirational (at least on the MLs).

As others have said the signalling (until the 1980s resignalling) allowed for running at line speed on multiple double yellows which would not be allowed today. The May 1974 timetable shows 21 departures down the electric line and 24 down the Main line (of which 3 are fast Cambridges that peel off at Bethnal Green). The main change since the 1960s is the increase in outer suburban departures vs inner, for example 12 Southends vs 6 in the 1960s. The other main difference is that only 6 ML departures (all to Southend Vic) called at Stratford on the MLs, whereas today only 1 of the 17 departures doesn‘t call here.

It was a similar story over at Fenchurch Street, though the 1970 into the 80s 23 departures operated in the high peak whereas only 15 operate today (though there are 19 arrivals in the morning), though like at Stratford on the GEML stops now at West Ham (only opened in the 1990s) eat into overall capacity.

 

[Taunton]

Then it is not comparable and the article describing it as an “Electric Line” service is a bit disingenuous.

I think you have to accept that the local line on the GEML has, officially, always been called the Electric line, ever since 1949 - when all the lines were electrified from the go, but this pair had the main local electric service, just out to Shenfield.

Bit like the GWML has always been Main and Relief. Not everyone is wedded to LMS nomenclature ... .

 

[Route115?]

I believe that you had 2 minute headways in the fast lines in & out of Waterloo in the early 80s. I'm not sure that they reached 30 trains per hour (probably not) but it was close. I'll see if I can dig out an old timetable.

 

[30907]

You’d have to compare individual stations, some of which didn’t get near 24tph. Every station west of Harold Wood gets a 16tph high peak service today.

I can only get to 14tph but the point stands: as we know, TfL don't really like skipping stops (and there would be little advantage, as the Mains are too busy here says)

I believe that you had 2 minute headways in the fast lines in & out of Waterloo in the early 80s. I'm not sure that they reached 30 trains per hour (probably not) but it was close. I'll see if I can dig out an old timetable.

There's been a thread fairly recently. Despite its title, it has some evening peak departure pages for Waterloo which show typically 4 trains per 10min on the Main Through, so about 24tph.
Charing X was slightly busier, but almost entirely on 4 tracks

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/shepperton-branch-stock-1970-to-75.267959/page-2#post-6780148

 

[WestAnglian]

From memory, occasionally 12. Though a vaguer memory says that was on Saturdays when Spurs were playing at home.

I don't remember ever seeing a 12, even on home days. The stop boards then were a very comprehensive 3/4/6/8/9.

 

[Thames99]

Out of interest, how intensive was the steam service to Chingford and Enfield? I remember the turnarounds at Liverpool Street being very quick, with locos being uncoupled and a new one coupled at the front as soon as a train arrived.

 

[Taunton]

As others have said the signalling (until the 1980s resignalling) allowed for running at line speed on multiple double yellows which would not be allowed today. The May 1974 timetable shows 21 departures down the electric line and 24 down the Main line (of which 3 are fast Cambridges that peel off at Bethnal Green).

Do bear in mind that, just as 3 per hour turned off to Cambridge at Bethnal Green, likewise the return services were coming in there, across the Down Main on the flat junction. Yes, you can schedule parallel working, but if you think the 1540 from Kings Lynn, due Liverpool Street 1758, running for over 2 hours, is going to present at Bethnal Green to the second as the 1756 Liverpool Street to Cambridge goes the other way, well, you have optimism. Bear in mind a number of the services were still diesel-powered, many still lower-powered Class 37s, straight up 1in70 Bethnal Green bank. Incidentally, I don't think this was the most intense to-the-second operation of all at the time; that honour went to Borough Market junction over on the Southern.

I do just love the disbelief/"impossible"/"you must be wrong" approach of some here. If you hear a strange noise from above in the stillness of the night, I'm afraid it's the ghost of Gerry Fiennes, laughing ...

 

[PeterC]

Do bear in mind that, just as 3 per hour turned off to Cambridge at Bethnal Green, likewise the return services were coming in there, across the Down Main on the flat junction. Yes, you can schedule parallel working, but if you think the 1540 from Kings Lynn, due Liverpool Street 1758, running for over 2 hours, is going to present at Bethnal Green to the second as the 1756 Liverpool Street to Cambridge goes the other way, well, you have optimism. Bear in mind a number of the services were still diesel-powered, many still lower-powered Class 37s, straight up 1in70 Bethnal Green bank. Incidentally, I don't think this was the most intense to-the-second operation of all at the time; that honour went to Borough Market junction over on the Southern.

I do just love the disbelief/"impossible"/"you must be wrong" approach of some here. If you hear a strange noise from above in the stillness of the night, I'm afraid it's the ghost of Gerry Fiennes, laughing ...

By 74 they had cut out the 6tph weave onto the main at Stratford by the fast Romford service. I was working locally then but as far as I remember they had trimmed the peak Electric Line services a little.

I do remember that on a contra peak service you could spend a long time admiring the Bishopsgate low level platform while waiting to get into Liverpool Street

Then it is not comparable and the article describing it as an “Electric Line” service is a bit disingenuous.

You’d have to compare individual stations, some of which didn’t get near 24tph. Every station west of Harold Wood gets a 16tph high peak service today.

Four tph less in the 70s but 6 would switch to the Main bedore Gidea Park and run non stop to Stratford switching back after Maryland to use the Electric Line platforms at Stratford. The impressive bit was the use of all lines although all calls from Brentwood to Stratford were on the Electrics which still put 18tph through Romford and Gidea Park.

 

[miklcct]

A 16 tph service with every train calling at all stations is definitely more reliable and benefits more passengers with 24 tph with only a minority of trains calling at any specific intermediate station.

On the former, delays don't matter, while on the matter, one delay can easily escalate and disrupt the service pattern throughout the whole line and bring the whole line in chaos. Also, with the former, local journeys between intermediate stations are under-served as a result as well, while the latter can carry more intermediate passengers at the expense of London-bound capacity, making average train loading higher as well as the turnaround per train is higher.

 

[Taunton]

The detail of how the evening slow-to-fast crossover at Bow Junction was useful, and why, and what benefit it gave, was covered in the later 1964 mag article, along with routing non-stop services on the Main through the platform at Stratford, and other operational niceties that all helped.

Out of interest, how intensive was the steam service to Chingford and Enfield? I remember the turnarounds at Liverpool Street being very quick, with locos being uncoupled and a new one coupled at the front as soon as a train arrived.

[1960s electric service] 9 trains an hour on Chingford line, some running fast from Liverpool Street to St James Street in 11 minutes.

Amazingly, more intense still under steam. There were 10 departures in the 1958 peak hour to Chingford.

1700 to 1759 at 06, 08, 17, 27, 29, 37, 39, 46, 48, 57

Source: 1958 ER timetable. Incidentally, all the while electrification works were fully in progress then. No "doing a Goblin" of shutting the line down for six months, then finding after this that half the works had not even been started.

 

[stuving]

This is a lot of relevant information in "A Railway Plan for London - Preliminary Report by a Working Party of British Railways and London Transport" (in the Railways Archive). This, infamously, proposed doing away with the Paddington inner suburban services (replaced by buses), on the grounds that long-distance and "outer suburban" needed a track pair each, and could not efficiently share with stopping trains.

Much of the report is about capacity constraints, including current and "future" trains per peaks hour - 67 and 69 for Liverpool Street. Appendix 1 reproduces a summary of the planning "rules" worked out by the 1949 London Plan Working Party.