24 TPH in 1961

[D7666]

I think though the article is dated 1961, electrification between Chelmsford and Colchester was not completed until summer 1962 so the actual service pattern shown may have been aspirational (at least on the MLs).

Which is precisely why I wrote "This article is a little ahead of the actual situation as the full electric services had not yet started." in the opening post.

 

[stuving]

This is what the Draft Consultation Document for the South West Main Line Route Utilisation Strategy (2005) says under "option 1.1: provide additional services".

In order to cater for the highest peak flows, additional services would need to be deployed in the high peak hour, arriving at Waterloo between 08:00 and 09:00. The current timetable is constructed on the basis of 2 minute headways and a 5 minute “firebreak” in each half hour, giving a theoretical maximum capacity of 25 identical trains per hour on each of the fast lines, and 3 minute headways on the slow lines, giving a theoretical maximum capacity of 20 identical stopping trains per hour. In practice the trains are not identical so this capacity is not quite reached.

The actual arrivals in the peak hour (8-9) were then 22 and 19.

 

[etr221]

Out of interest, how intensive was the steam service to Chingford and Enfield? I remember the turnarounds at Liverpool Street being very quick, with locos being uncoupled and a new one coupled at the front as soon as a train arrived.

The GER's suburban 'Jazz' service was written up in the Railway Gazette of October 1 1920, reprinted by the GERS as "The Last Word in Steam Operated Suburban Train Services". Probably worth reading if you can get hold of a copy.

Wondering what sort of service the Met and MDR ran in steam days...

Or how many services were handled by Borough Market Junction SB.

 

[D7666]

The GER's suburban 'Jazz' service was written up in the Railway Gazette of October 1 1920, reprinted by the GERS as "The Last Word in Steam Operated Suburban Train Services". Probably worth reading if you can get hold of a copy.

The mag I quoted in the opening post TI 01/61 also carries an item on the GE steam service; I have not seen the 1920 item but it is possible TI used an extract; as both TI items combine to 14 pages I am not going to scan and upload that lot.

 

[MarkyT]

This is a lot of relevant information in "A Railway Plan for London - Preliminary Report by a Working Party of British Railways and London Transport" (in the Railways Archive). This, infamously, proposed doing away with the Paddington inner suburban services (replaced by buses), on the grounds that long-distance and "outer suburban" needed a track pair each, and could not efficiently share with stopping trains.

The BR platforms at Westbourne Park were eventually removed in the 1990s when the terminus approach layout and signalling were completely renewed in preparation for HEX. Odd the report doesn't mention that station, only proposing closure of Acton, West Ealing, Hanwell and Southall.

 

[D7666]

This is what the Draft Consultation Document for the South West Main Line Route Utilisation Strategy (2005) says under "option 1.1: provide additional services".

The actual arrivals in the peak hour (8-9) were then 22 and 19.

AIUI all this on SWML has since been over taken by ETCS possibilities which is why Waterloo radiating lines are high up on the list (3rd is it after ECML and GWML; I forget where we are with this now).

 

[coppercapped]

Do bear in mind that, just as 3 per hour turned off to Cambridge at Bethnal Green, likewise the return services were coming in there, across the Down Main on the flat junction. Yes, you can schedule parallel working, but if you think the 1540 from Kings Lynn, due Liverpool Street 1758, running for over 2 hours, is going to present at Bethnal Green to the second as the 1756 Liverpool Street to Cambridge goes the other way, well, you have optimism. Bear in mind a number of the services were still diesel-powered, many still lower-powered Class 37s, straight up 1in70 Bethnal Green bank. Incidentally, I don't think this was the most intense to-the-second operation of all at the time; that honour went to Borough Market junction over on the Southern.

I do just love the disbelief/"impossible"/"you must be wrong" approach of some here. If you hear a strange noise from above in the stillness of the night, I'm afraid it's the ghost of Gerry Fiennes, laughing ...

I can take a hint...!

In his 1967 book ‘I tried to run a railway’ Gerry Fiennes wrote about the peak hour at Liverpool Street circa 1963/4:

“The commuter services out of Liverpool Street were, with the exception of the minor Lea Valley line, fully electrified. Liverpool Street was running on three tracks 67 trains in the peak hour, over 60 of them electrically hauled…Then we went out on to the bridge which overlooks the East side. You can always tell when, as usual, Liverpool Street are in good form. They are strolling through their job. Steady streams are walking, not bustling or shoving, across the concourse. They are giving the ticket inspectors time to do their work. They form up on the platforms in little blocks four abreast. Their train slides in, stops on a sixpence, opens its doors precisely in front of them. The blocks take two paces forward into the train. The motorman and guard exchange ends and a brief word on their way. A light goes green. The doors close. A bell rings twice. And another 1,200 are on their way—24,000 an hour on one track. We took Deedes (the MP for Ashford, Kent) for a ride in the cab. He was pretty complimentary about it all a little while later in the House.”

I came down from University in 1966 and my first job was in Chelmsford so I used Liverpool Street regularly for the next couple of years[1]. It was grimy — as was all of London in those days before the Clean Air Acts started to have an effect — and quite a proportion of the weight of the cast iron brake blocks ended up on the outside of the trains. But the service was much as Fiennes described it, it just worked.

[1] The AM9s were impressive - especially being able to have a minute steak from the Griddle Car for breakfast on my way out to Chelmsford…

 

[Taunton]

Thank you. And Fiennes was never known for overstatement. My copy of said book is looking down at me from the shelves as I write this. If I look carefully I can see, in that cover photo of him and the Deltic, he seems to be smiling at being quoted. Did you ever meet him?

Bill Deedes, MP, after being such, was the longstanding editor of The Daily Telegraph, and also the "Dear Bill" subject of the long running Private Eye column which parodied Margaret Thatcher's husband Dennis writing to him. The two men were regular golf buddies. I wonder if Deedes wrote a positive news article afterwards. You don't get to be editor of such a paper without being a particularly sharp cookie.

The AM9s were doubtless impressive, but the more so east of Shenfield when things went up from 6.25kV to 25kV. All this performance described here was done on quarter voltage.

 

[MotCO]

It’s not plain line capacity which is the issue, it’s station dwell times. I know the 306s were sliding door, but the 307s were slam door and so station dwell times were much lower.

Are dwell times longer with slam door or sliding door stock? I can imagine in the 60's that doors were slammed shut quickly, and even if reopened briefly, the train would continue on its way. There were more slam doors down the side of commuter trains than sliding doors so more passengers could board simultaneously.

 

[Bikeman78]

Are dwell times longer with slam door or sliding door stock? I can imagine in the 60's that doors were slammed shut quickly, and even if reopened briefly, the train would continue on its way. There were more slam doors down the side of commuter trains than sliding doors so more passengers could board simultaneously.

When slam doors were everywhere and people were used to them, they were undoubtedly faster than the early years of sliding door trains. As you say, there were far more doors per train. By the end, they were an ordeal, especially at places like Gatwick.

 

[Taunton]

Are dwell times longer with slam door or sliding door stock?

Both can be extremely quick, or not, depending on the procedures. Slam doors can be rapid on suburban stock, because there are so many of them. For power doors, I've been on the Paris Metro late at night with sub-10 second stops (I started timing them) at station after station. I think of these trips when it takes longer than that on SWR just to release the doors in the first place.

User familiarity is part of it. I can recall traditional double decker buses, with the open rear, not quite coming to a stand and passengers had both got on and off, and it would be belled away. The sort of thing that nowadays is described as 'completely unacceptable'. But I never, ever, saw a passenger accident with one.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There was a further full article a few years later, when the same magazine had become Modern Railways, that described it all on the GEML in the evening peak. Notable were the crossings of semi-fast trains from Main to Electric as they got further out, plus some services that started on the Electric, actually crossed to the Main beyond Stratford to overtake the one in front, and then crossed back. This all on tracks paired by use, so needing weaving in with the incomings. There weren't any carriage sidings at Liverpool Street either, so the inward service needed to be just as dense to provide the following outbound services.

When described in general terms at least one modern day operator said the descriptions were "impossible", until the detail was posted.

It wasn't much different out of London Bridge or Waterloo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2024 ==


Well I certainly don't remember one going through the buffers at Enfield Town, as happened a year or two ago ...

I’ve often wondered whether the great eastern could have been paired by direction instead with the fasts on the outside because of these exact movements.

 

[30907]

I’ve often wondered whether the great eastern could have been paired by direction instead with the fasts on the outside because of these exact movements.

You would need a flyover outside Liverpool St, and depot access would be an issue at Ilford for starters, on top of all the station alterations - of course, if you had built it that way from the start, all that would have been planned in, and the timetable would have been different too.

In the end, ISTR there were trains that ran on the Electrics to beyond Stratford and then switched to the Mains, to serve outer-suburban destinations.

 

[D7666]

The AM9s were doubtless impressive, but the more so east of Shenfield when things went up from 6.25kV to 25kV. All this performance described here was done on quarter voltage.

Not sure what you are meaning about "quarter voltage" ???? If you are implying 'quarter power' then nay nay and thrice nay.

AM9 (and all dual 6.25/25 kV types) performance specification was same on 6.25 kV and 25 kV all other things being equal.

On the AM9 traction transformer, there were 4 sections to the primary winding. When on 25 kV, the 4 sections connected in series, and on 6.25 kV the 4 connected in parallel.

In either case the resultant output from the secondary winding towards the motors is exactly the same.

I have not looked into how this was done on other dual 6.25/25 kV EMU types but however it was set up, the result is the same, equal performance on either.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Trainspotting at Kirkham North Junction on summer Saturday mornings in the early-1960s, with a 3-munute headway on all 4 tracks, you could expect see a train on average every 45 seconds, so up to 80 trains an hour, mostly steam-hauled. Happy days!

 

[Bikeman78]

User familiarity is part of it. I can recall traditional double decker buses, with the open rear, not quite coming to a stand and passengers had both got on and off, and it would be belled away. The sort of thing that nowadays is described as 'completely unacceptable'. But I never, ever, saw a passenger accident with one.

I can recall a time on a class 302 that someone opened the door, jumped off and slammed it shut before the train stopped.

 

[coppercapped]

Thank you. And Fiennes was never known for overstatement. My copy of said book is looking down at me from the shelves as I write this. If I look carefully I can see, in that cover photo of him and the Deltic, he seems to be smiling at being quoted. Did you ever meet him?

Not directly, unfortunately, but shortly after I graduated in 1966 I attended two lectures in London which he gave. At this distance in time I can no longer definitely remember the venue or venues but the lectures may have been presented at the London School of Economics.

A very impressive speaker with an easy manner - but he kept everybody's attention. A full lecture hall — and you could have heard a pin drop.

As I wrote earlier I was working in Chelmsford at the time and occasionally some evenings I saw Fiennes at Liverpool Street waiting patiently in the queue for his train until the platform was opened. This was after his retirement but there was always a senior uniformed member of the station staff talking to him. A tall man with a ramrod pose.

Bill Deedes, MP, after being such, was the longstanding editor of The Daily Telegraph, and also the "Dear Bill" subject of the long running Private Eye column which parodied Margaret Thatcher's husband Dennis writing to him. The two men were regular golf buddies. I wonder if Deedes wrote a positive news article afterwards. You don't get to be editor of such a paper without being a particularly sharp cookie.

The AM9s were doubtless impressive, but the more so east of Shenfield when things went up from 6.25kV to 25kV. All this performance described here was done on quarter voltage.

 

[Horizon22]

I think you have to accept that the local line on the GEML has, officially, always been called the Electric line, ever since 1949 - when all the lines were electrified from the go, but this pair had the main local electric service, just out to Shenfield.

Bit like the GWML has always been Main and Relief. Not everyone is wedded to LMS nomenclature ... .

I mean crossing over onto the Main Lines for a significant chunk of a journey cannot truly be considered an "Electric Line" service. No qualms with the nomenclature!

 

[Taunton]

I can recall a time on a class 302 that someone opened the door, jumped off and slammed it shut before the train stopped.

In the Cannon Street EPB buffer stop collision a number of passengers had actually alighted onto the platform and started walking forward before the collision occurred.

 

[Ploughman]

By comparison,What was the rate per hour at Liverpool Central underground station with the reversing track?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Interesting to hear mentions of the unusual signalling sequences (G-YY-YY-YY-YY-Y-R) on the GEML electric lines. I believe the resignalling maintained some of these non-standard sequences with the standard BR 4-aspect installations particularly around the Stratford/Maryland/Bow areas where the signal spacing are similar to the Charing Cross lines - the AWS magnet for one signal being positioned just after the previous - but with linespeeds of 70mph+ rather than 30mph.

Anecdotally it created some challenges when Crossrail was designed, as the underlying principles are quite difficult to specify, given that the braking distance from linespeed is clearly greater than the final YY-Y-R pair of sections, and yet with 315s running on 2-min headways it quite clearly worked! I wonder how MTR drivers were taught to treat the shorter signal blocks.

 

[Taunton]

By comparison, what was the rate per hour at Liverpool Central underground station with the reversing track?

It was 24tph. Completely automated from the Mersey Railway resignalling on electrification in 1903 by Westinghouse, it lasted to the 1977 opening of The Loop, whose new signalling could not keep up with the previous service level. We have discussed it here in the past. In my more youthful times I used to sneak into the arriving train and ride into the reversing track and back.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I've just had a look at my 1922 Bradshaw's and, at a rough count, there were about a hundred departures each weekday from Liverpool Street between 17.00 and 19.00. Destinations included Palace Gates, Enfield Town, Hertford, Ongar, Chingford, Chelmsford (and beyond), Southend, North Woolwich, plus various stations on the main line such as Ilford, Gidea Park and Shenfield.

My dad could remember the prewar Jazz service from Liverpool Street; he said it was amazing to watch: one train would come in, the passengers would alight, the loco would be uncoupled from the train, another loco would be coupled to the other end, and off it would go, all in a couple of minutes. The incoming loco would then go to the siding at the country end of the platform to wait for the next arrival. Someone mentioned yellow signals; he also remembered travelling on an up fast through Brentwood, with the train going at around 50mph on single yellows. He'd never seen that before or afterwards.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The very impressive standard of (often) mechanical signalling skills pre the 1949 electrifiction and modernisation makes it even more praiseworthy.

To quote Fiennes (once again) - "call attention" was not used on the block bells , and some inward transferred signalling inspector insisted on it on the GE (or the "Swedey" as some called it) , and the peak service collapsed into shambles until what was then "normal working" was re-instated........seconds mattered. Presume they had Sykes lock and block , as had the Southern south of the river ?

 

[Taunton]

The GEML signals after electrification were often close together, which among other things meant that commonly two, possibly even three, were visible ahead. It's a pretty straight line.

They were still LNER-pattern searchlights (with a second lamp for YY) when the first TPWS grids came along. For whatever reason the TPWS connection from the signal was done from the actual colour filter slide between lamp and lens. This was a U-shaped device which moved, yellow one end, green the opposite end, and red at the bottom. Single pair of control wires, positive current moved it to the green, negative to the yellow, no current it fell to the red, being weighted. Good old 1930s electro-mechanical technology. As it stepped up from yellow to green it passed by the red for a second, which all the drivers were used to but the TPWS designers did not recognise. And with close headway working trains were passing the grids just as it changed up from yellow to green. TPWS said SPAD, brakes slammed on. Apparently took a little while to be even recognised, and then to be sorted out.

 

[Springs Branch]

By comparison,What was the rate per hour at Liverpool Central underground station with the reversing track?

It was 24tph. Completely automated from the Mersey Railway resignalling on electrification in 1903 by Westinghouse . . .

I remember being very impressed (as a mere provincial lad who had not yet visited the London Underground) with even the normal off-peak terminal operations at the old Liverpool Central Low Level.

Electric trains arrived from Birkenhead like clockwork, heading off empty into the dead-end tunnel, then re-appearing outbound a few minutes later. I would have been blown away by the 2½ minute frequency under the Mersey in the peak (every 5 mins on the Rock Ferry line, 10 mins each on West Kirby & New Brighton).

I think the Mersey operation had to be particularly slick at the underground flat junction at Hamilton Square, where trains on the same route (Rock Ferry or Birkenhead Park) needed to be timed to pass there in both directions to avoid snarl-ups.

By way of comparison, I wonder how many t.p.h. the London Underground manages through the flat junctions at Baker St and at the Aldgate triangle?

The GEML signals after electrification were often close together, which among other things meant that commonly two, possibly even three, were visible ahead. It's a pretty straight line. They were still LNER-pattern searchlights . . .

Any discussion on high-frequency suburban services and custom signalling in the 1960s should have an honourable mention for the Watford DC line - especially the bit between Queen's Park and Harrow & Wealdstone.

Without pulling a 1960-61 timetable off the shelf and counting, I'm sure there were something like 18 or 19 t.p.h. on the "DC core" in each peak - formed of sparkling-new Class 501 slammers and 1930s sliding-door Bakerloo stock.

Southbound destinations varied between Euston, Broad Street or the Elephant; northbound some of the Bakerloos went through to Watford Jn, others terminated at H&W, while B.R. mostly went to Watford Jn with an odd one or two going to Croxley Green direct. You'd really need to pay attention to the train's destination blind in the days before electronic P.I.S. on every platform.

Admittedly things were simplified by most trains stopped at all stations (a few Broad Streets did skip a couple of the less busy stations during the peak) and there were no flat crossings to contend with between Camden and Harrow & Wealdstone.

Frequency was every 2 - 3 mins (with the odd 5-min 'firebreak') regulated by the DC line's unique 'stop & proceed' colour light system. Apparently, this permissive signalling system led to several incidents during disruption after the 'stop, then proceed ready to stop at any obstacle' regulation had morphed in practice into 'stop, then proceed at full pelt until you run into the back of the train in front'.

 

[Route115?]

Going through my 1982, I have counted 26tph on the fast lines into and out of Waterloo, although as I am using the PTT it is possible that some vary by a couple of minutes from the WTT or may ise the slow lines:

1720	Portsmouth Harbour
1722	Guildford v Cobham
1724	Eastleigh
1726	Woking
1730	Weymouth
1732	Portsmouth Harbour
1734	Basingstoke
1736	Farnham
1738	Alton
1740	Portsmouth Harbour
1742	Guildford v Cobham
1744	Bournemouth
1748	Guildford v Woking
1750	Portsmouth Harbour
1752	Guildford v Cobham
1754	Eastleigh
1756	Farnham
1758	Alton
1800	Portsmouth Harbour
1802	Guildford v Cobham
1806	Bournemouth
1808	Woking
1810	Salisbury
1812	Basingstoke
1814	Guildford v Cobham
1818	Alton

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2024 ==

Here are the Up services. As I mentioned these are public times, which may explain the two arrivals at 08:34.

The sources is the PTT valid 1 June 81 - 16 May 82, Tables, 145, 156, 158 & 166. If anyone has access to WTTs they may be able to add some more info.

06:13	Southampton	08:00
06:23	Portsmouth Harbour	08:04
06:16	Salisbury	08:06
06:50	Alton	08:08
07:20	Guildford v Cobham	08:11
07:07	Alton	08:14
06:30	Southampton	08:16
06:18	Bournemouth	08:18
07:22	Guildford v Woking	08:21
06:33	Portsmouth Harbour	08:25
06:40	Salisbury	08:26
06:27	Bedhampton	08:28
06:50	Portsmouth Harbour	08:30
07:40	Guildford v Cobham	08:34
07:29	Alton	08:34
05:52	Bournemouth	08:37
07:33	Farnham	08:38
06:22	Bournemouth	08:40
07:50	Guildford v Cobham	08:43
07:07	Bedhampton	08:45
07:07	Guildford v Woking	08:48
07:10	Portsmouth Harbour	08:50
08:00	Guildford v Cobham	08:52
07:18	Eastleigh	08:54
07:50	Alton	08:56
07:53	Farnham	08:58

 

[D7666]

Any discussion on high-frequency suburban services and custom signalling in the 1960s should have an honourable mention for the Watford DC line

In practical terms, that LMS 'new line' signalling system is /almost/ contemporary Underground/LT signalling principles. It is really only customised in the sense it (and the same system Bromley / Upminster) was adapted from LT/Underground but unique for main lines.

The obvious visible difference is LMS system used a 'calling on' aspect after a time out authorising movement past a Red, whereas LT did not have an aspect to do that. Some times the multi head junction signals are quoted as a difference but LT practice at the time was also multi head signals not route indicators - there were some specimens on LT that look near identical to the LMS signals, and it is LMS copied LT not v.v.

Traditional public domain books on the subject skip over this point - and reading the way LT traditional signalling is described in those books, I don't think the writers bothered to understand LT principles. LT traditional signalling is all too often dismissed just as two aspect (which it is if you do not look beyond the signals) with trains stops, but write no more than that; in fact LT two aspect signalling works at a deeper level and this is what LMS put in on the 'new line'.

(( Digressing, another item almost exclusively missed from any LT signalling in any mainstream public domain book is the Westinghouse V interlocking frame; to my knowledge not used anywhere on main line, yet core almost every post war LT scheme; including the Victoria LIne as built that despite all the 1960s media blurb did not use one single computer for train protection or movement authority (the computers involved had other fiunctions); V frames were one - of several - essential element in the high traffic throughput of LT. ))

 

[jfollows]

Going through my 1982, I have counted 26tph on the fast lines into and out of Waterloo, although as I am using the PTT it is possible that some vary by a couple of minutes from the WTT or may ise the slow lines:

1720	Portsmouth Harbour
1722	Guildford v Cobham
1724	Eastleigh
1726	Woking
1730	Weymouth
1732	Portsmouth Harbour
1734	Basingstoke
1736	Farnham
1738	Alton
1740	Portsmouth Harbour
1742	Guildford v Cobham
1744	Bournemouth
1748	Guildford v Woking
1750	Portsmouth Harbour
1752	Guildford v Cobham
1754	Eastleigh
1756	Farnham
1758	Alton
1800	Portsmouth Harbour
1802	Guildford v Cobham
1806	Bournemouth
1808	Woking
1810	Salisbury
1812	Basingstoke
1814	Guildford v Cobham
1818	Alton

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2024 ==

Here are the Up services. As I mentioned these are public times, which may explain the two arrivals at 08:34.

The sources is the PTT valid 1 June 81 - 16 May 82, Tables, 145, 156, 158 & 166. If anyone has access to WTTs they may be able to add some more info.

06:13	Southampton	08:00
06:23	Portsmouth Harbour	08:04
06:16	Salisbury	08:06
06:50	Alton	08:08
07:20	Guildford v Cobham	08:11
07:07	Alton	08:14
06:30	Southampton	08:16
06:18	Bournemouth	08:18
07:22	Guildford v Woking	08:21
06:33	Portsmouth Harbour	08:25
06:40	Salisbury	08:26
06:27	Bedhampton	08:28
06:50	Portsmouth Harbour	08:30
07:40	Guildford v Cobham	08:34
07:29	Alton	08:34
05:52	Bournemouth	08:37
07:33	Farnham	08:38
06:22	Bournemouth	08:40
07:50	Guildford v Cobham	08:43
07:07	Bedhampton	08:45
07:07	Guildford v Woking	08:48
07:10	Portsmouth Harbour	08:50
08:00	Guildford v Cobham	08:52
07:18	Eastleigh	08:54
07:50	Alton	08:56
07:53	Farnham	08:58

All of these are FL through Clapham Junction, except for the Guildford v Cobham services which don’t appear in the WG WTT, they will be in the WH which I don’t have. So these could also be FL, I just don’t know for sure from what I have.

 

[30907]

All of these are FL through Clapham Junction, except for the Guildford v Cobham services which don’t appear in the WG WTT, they will be in the WH which I don’t have. So these could also be FL, I just don’t know for sure from what I have.

They were all FL at that stage, first stop Surbiton.