29 new trains for Transpennine Express ?

[skyhigh]

I don't see CAF meeting their needs either

Why not?

 

[Whistler40145]

I don't see them as a provider of quality long distance trains

 

[Sorcerer]

I don't see them as a provider of quality long distance trains

You may not see it that way, but TPE may disagree seeing as they already have a long-distance Civity model that can operate intercity-style services. Maybe not true intercity, but still somewhat suited for regional express operations, and it makes sense as a follow-on order after LNER's placement for tri-mode CAFs since both TPE and LNER are ran by OLR and buying in bulk winds up being ultimately cheaper. Given how it's unlikely to be an order for electric-only, it will come down to who can offer a multi-mode unit, and if Hitachi are raking up prices or aren't interested, that leaves just CAF and Stadler.

 

[Whistler40145]

You may not see it that way, but TPE may disagree seeing as they already have a long-distance Civity model that can operate intercity-style services. Maybe not true intercity, but still somewhat suited for regional express operations, and it makes sense as a follow-on order after LNER's placement for tri-mode CAFs since both TPE and LNER are ran by OLR and buying in bulk winds up being ultimately cheaper. Given how it's unlikely to be an order for electric-only, it will come down to who can offer a multi-mode unit, and if Hitachi are raking up prices or aren't interested, that leaves just CAF and Stadler.

Are you meaning the CAF Oaris High Speed train?

 

[Sorcerer]

Are you meaning the CAF Oaris High Speed train?

No, I do mean the CAF Civity. The Oaris is a true high-speed train for the likes of HS2 whereas the Civity is a regional train that can be adapted for regional express and intercity operations such as with the 397 and LNER's future fleet.

 

[Whistler40145]

My apologies

 

[Sorcerer]

My apologies

No harm done.

 

[Krokodil]

I don't see them as a provider of quality long distance trains

The overriding factor is that they've got open order books, which puts them ahead of Hitachi

 

[Whistler40145]

The overriding factor is that they've got open order books, which puts them ahead of Hitachi

The equivalent of 331s wouldn't be suitable

 

[Snow1964]

You may not see it that way, but TPE may disagree seeing as they already have a long-distance Civity model that can operate intercity-style services. Maybe not true intercity, but still somewhat suited for regional express operations, and it makes sense as a follow-on order after LNER's placement for tri-mode CAFs since both TPE and LNER are ran by OLR and buying in bulk winds up being ultimately cheaper. Given how it's unlikely to be an order for electric-only, it will come down to who can offer a multi-mode unit, and if Hitachi are raking up prices or aren't interested, that leaves just CAF and Stadler.

Of course, if any of the manufacturers end up with a big order from another Operator (or another country), before this order materialises, they might be less keen to bid, or put up their prices as don't need the extra work short term.

Already in May, CAF has announced 40x6 car for Madrid, and 20x3car for Oslo, so that is 300 vehicle build slots taken up.

Stadler has recently announced some double deck kiss EMUs for Bulgaria so they are also taking other orders.

 

[JonathanH]

Already in May, CAF has announced 40x6 car for Madrid, and 20x3car for Oslo, so that is 300 vehicle build slots taken up.

No work for Newport though presumably?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The equivalent of 331s wouldn't be suitable

They wouldn't be 331 equivalents, they'd be more similar to 397s.

 

[Sorcerer]

Of course, if any of the manufacturers end up with a big order from another Operator (or another country), before this order materialises, they might be less keen to bid, or put up their prices as don't need the extra work short term.

Already in May, CAF has announced 40x6 car for Madrid, and 20x3car for Oslo, so that is 300 vehicle build slots taken up.

Stadler has recently announced some double deck kiss EMUs for Bulgaria so they are also taking other orders.

Perhaps, and in that situation it may be a case of needing to take a risk on another manufacturer not yet offering a tri-mode option or may possibly need to settle for a bi-mode unit. Meanwhile as well as currently finishing off some of the 805/807/810s Hitachi will also be occupied with the HS2 stock. Not sure about Siemens and Alstom at the moment and whether they can offer a multi-mode unit for the TPE network.

 

[Whistler40145]

Alstom in the UK has an unpredictable future

 

[YorkRailFan]

Alstom in the UK has an unpredictable future

Alstom would have to make the Adessia tri-mode to get a shot at this order, it is possible but may be less competitive than what Hitachi and CAF are offering.

 

[QSK19]

As valid as the reasons may be, it seems like a bit of a shambles that there's talk of 29 additional trains to replace the existing fleet before they've even got around to withdrawing the barely 5-year-old Nova 3 stock. Even if the 68+MK5 stock isn't suitable for their current needs it's still a disgrace that they would be ordered and withdrawn within such a short time period.

Exactly my thoughts. TPE have been showered with new trains left, right and centre. Yet, over in EMR land, the Connect and Regional services are being run by 20+ year old trains which could stay until they are 40+ years old*

Surely TPE should be the last TOC that should receive new trains? Meanwhile old trains at other TOCs (not just EMR) soldier on with no plans to replace.

So many things wrong with the railways - yet more new stock for TPE would be another of them.

* I’m not accepting the argument that EMR is receiving the 810s seeing as I’m referring to non-IC stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly my thoughts. TPE have been showered with new trains left, right and centre. Yet, over in EMR land, the Connect and Regional services are being run by 20+ year old trains which could stay until they are 40+ years old*

Surely TPE should be the last TOC that should receive new trains? Meanwhile old trains at other TOCs (not just EMR) soldier on with no plans to replace.

So many things wrong with the railways - yet more new stock for TPE would be another of them.

* I’m not accepting the argument that EMR is receiving the 810s seeing as I’m referring to non-IC stock.

TPE got it because of the need for capacity - it's been worse than XC for years, and the new stock has largely solved the problem. EMR doesn't have a massive capacity problem aside from Liverpool-Notts which was to go to TPE (and I still think should have done).

Also, it's stupid electrifying a line and not running EMUs on it. Shoving wires up on TPE and still running 185s (one of the most thirsty diesel units due to the 750hp engines and very heavy weight) under them would be the definition of nuts.

 

[QSK19]

TPE got it because of the need for capacity - it's been worse than XC for years, and the new stock has largely solved the problem. EMR doesn't have a massive capacity problem aside from Liverpool-Notts which was to go to TPE (and I still think should have done).

Also, it's stupid electrifying a line and not running EMUs on it. Shoving wires up on TPE and still running 185s (one of the most thirsty diesel units due to the 750hp engines and very heavy weight) under them would be the definition of nuts.

Agreed on this and the Liverpool-Nottingham switch to TPE, but aren’t there any EMUs off lease (or to go off lease) that could run such services? 350/2s once they come off lease, for example?

 

[Bletchleyite]

350/2s once they come off lease, for example?

125mph units are required for the ECML work. I suppose the 80x could stay on that but then you're wasting their diesel capability.

350/2s might be suitable for the more local work, yes.

 

[YorkRailFan]

TPE got it because of the need for capacity - it's been worse than XC for years, and the new stock has largely solved the problem.

In theory, a couple of back-to-back cancellations throws that out the water. Or if a 3 car is allocated on a Cross Pennine (non York-Scarborough service).

 

[Grumpy]

I think they should have fewer tables and more airline seats, but otherwise I like them. Nice interior (OK, Sophias, but they haven't collapsed yet), fully window aligned in Standard and big windows with no stupid blinds to cause arguments.

They're ok to sit in. Until they start moving.

 

[JonathanH]

TPE have been showered with new trains left, right and centre. Yet, over in EMR land, the Connect and Regional services are being run by 20+ year old trains which could stay until they are 40+ years old*

Surely TPE should be the last TOC that should receive new trains? Meanwhile old trains at other TOCs (not just EMR) soldier on with no plans to replace.

So many things wrong with the railways - yet more new stock for TPE would be another of them.

It doesn't work like that. New trains should go to the routes which can afford them, with hand-me-downs passing to the less remunerative routes.

It really was quite clever to send mid life 170s to EMR from various sources to displace the 156s without saddling EMR with the high cost of new stock.

Many bus companies work on this principle, for example Brighton and Hove gets new double deckers for a flagship route, leading to a cascade which sees mid life buses go to Metrobus in Crawley. Simple economics.

 

[43074]

It doesn't work like that. New trains should go to the routes which can afford them, with hand-me-downs passing to the less remunerative routes.

It really was quite clever to send mid life 170s to EMR from various sources to displace the 156s without saddling EMR with the high cost of new stock.

It doesn't work like that either though - how do you explain the 755s in East Anglia and the large numbers of new units at Transport for Wales? As that would imply the Bleanau Ffestiniog brach justifies new stock but local services in/out of Leicester or Nottingham do not, which is ludicrous.

The 170s ending up at EMR was very much by luck rather than by good intention, and those from Transport for Wales could only transfer to EMR because they are using more Mark 4s and retaining the 153s. Originally a large chunk of the EMR 170 fleet was to be the 171 fleet from Southern for which no replacement was planned anyway.

By handing down interurban stock you also get to a point where using 170s on routes like Nottingham to Worksop or the Matlock branch isn't great as they are high geared units not really intended for stopping services so the fuel economy is dire. It would definitely be more economic to run something more like a 195 on those routes instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't work like that either though - how do you explain the 755s in East Anglia and the large numbers of new units at Transport for Wales? As that would imply the Bleanau Ffestiniog brach justifies new stock but local services in/out of Leicester or Nottingham do not, which is ludicrous.

For Blaenau it's just microfleet avoidance. Everything else is 197 operated up there, so 197s on there too. Keeping a couple of 150s for it would cost more, not less. It only didn't happen with 175s because they didn't fit, and the 15x were a pain.

See also St Albans or Lymington. There's absolutely no need for a 4-car EMU on either of these, but because everything else is run by 4-car EMUs if you have something specific for the branch it's expensive faff.

 

[43074]

For Blaenau it's just microfleet avoidance. Everything else is 197 operated up there, so 197s on there too. Keeping a couple of 150s for it would cost more, not less. It only didn't happen with 175s because they didn't fit, and the 15x were a pain.

See also St Albans or Lymington. There's absolutely no need for a 4-car EMU on either of these, but because everything else is run by 4-car EMUs if you have something specific for the branch it's expensive faff.

I think my general point still stands though; @JonathanH was writing about EMR having a complete fleet of 170s as if it was good, well intentioned rolling stock strategy when in reality it happened by accident after it was apparent the cascade of 16 or however many 171s from Southern was never going to happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think my general point still stands though; @JonathanH was writing about EMR having a complete fleet of 170s as if it was good, well intentioned rolling stock strategy when in reality it happened by accident after it was apparent the cascade of 16 or however many 171s from Southern was never going to happen.

171s are 170s, just with a different coupler.

 

[Trainbike46]

171s are 170s, just with a different coupler.

the point that the intended cascade fell through, and then there were unexpectedly more 170s available from a different source that allowed them to fill that gap stands though.

Whether a route gets new trains or cascaded trains depends on a lot of factors, including:
- Are there suitable trains surplus to requirements available?
- how can microfleets be avoided?
- what is best to minimise training needs?
- what are the lease charges on the cascaded and new stock options?
and many more!

Back to TPE - a big reason they got new stock was simply that there wasn't any stock available that met their needs at the time (no bimode or diesel high speed stock going spare). Now that they need different stock to make use of the electrification constructed, the only available high-speed stock (Mk 5s, 22x) is diesel-only - so once again the likely outcome is new (unless someone knows of any spare electric/bimode high-speed stock laying around?)

 

[The exile]

the only available high-speed stock (Mk 5s, 22x) is diesel-only -

Mk 5s are surely “any power source you like”? OK - suitable bi-mode or electric locos might currently be as rare as hens teeth, but that’s a different matter.

 

[Trainbike46]

Mk 5s are surely “any power source you like”? OK - suitable bi-mode or electric locos might currently be as rare as hens teeth, but that’s a different matter.

As you state, not without a suitable locomotive! Realistically, it would require procuring new, 125mph electric (passenger) locos - not really a realistic proposition, and even if it was selected it would still involve getting new stock, the locomotive!

 

[DanNCL]

I assume that anyone advocating more 397's has never experienced travelling on one.

I have, several times. I’ll take a 397 over an 802 any day.