3 carriages between Salisbury and Exeter !

[Crossover]

The 1420 from Waterloo is booked a 6-car all the way on a Friday. 1520 is a 6-car all the way all week too.

I got lucky then as I caught the 15:20 back in March between Feniton and Exeter (having gone to scratch Cranbrook and then using the "shuttle" to venture further along the line). On arrival at Exeter, it headed off into the sidings and then returned as a 3 car for the return working

If they can run six carriages on Saturdays, perhaps they can run them on other days ?

Presumably there is free stock on a Saturday from other services that either don't run or are shorter formed for the weekend?

 

[embers25]

Perhaps they need to extend the half hourly Yeovil to Exeter, but I suppose that would need more stock. I presume this runs from Waterloo ?

More stock is one issue, track capacity is another without extra crossing points and also the biggie is crew as all(?) Exeter services have to be double crewed with the driver for the return service travelling as passenger from Salisbury to Exeter.

 

[yorksrob]

Presumably there is free stock on a Saturday from other services that either don't run or are shorter formed for the weekend?

Presumably. Hopefully they're not using them on fully electrified routes.

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps they need to extend the half hourly Yeovil to Exeter, but I suppose that would need more stock. I presume this runs from Waterloo ?

Cannot really run 2 two trains per hour as standard beyond Yeovil without more redoubling.

 

[yorksrob]

Cannot really run 2 two trains per hour as standard beyond Yeovil without more redoubling.

I suspected as much. It seems more stock is the only practical answer for the time being.

 

[louis97]

I got lucky then as I caught the 15:20 back in March between Feniton and Exeter (having gone to scratch Cranbrook and then using the "shuttle" to venture further along the line). On arrival at Exeter, it headed off into the sidings and then returned as a 3 car for the return working

Front set berths for the night, forming the rear portion of the 0823 ish the next day. Although its return working should of been joined by the 158 ex the shuttle, however they don't come into St Davids together, they arrive separately and attach in the platform.

 

[TEW]

They used to but the introduction of the half hourly services to Yeovil means that there are no spare trains. What's more frustrating is that now the Exeter ones are full and standing whilst the pointless extra Yeovils just carry air.

On the earlier point. The 1520 I use a lot and it is booked as 6 but regularly ends up being 3 beyond Salisbury. I have also used the 1420 on Fridays this summer and it was also 3 beyond Salisbury on several occasions.

The Yeovil services are just using stock which was otherwise spare between the peaks.

Presumably there is free stock on a Saturday from other services that either don't run or are shorter formed for the weekend?

Exactly that. Monday-Friday there is a lot of strengthening in to and out of Waterloo in the morning and evening peaks, services run as 8, 9 or 10 coaches. On Weekends services are not strengthened in to Waterloo so much, so the units can be used to strengthen more services towards Exeter.

More stock is one issue, track capacity is another without extra crossing points and also the biggie is crew as all(?) Exeter services have to be double crewed with the driver for the return service travelling as passenger from Salisbury to Exeter.

Exeter services don't have to have an extra driver on board for the return trip. Some services carry an extra driver or guard, because of the extra peak services at the Exeter end. But generally, there is only 1 crew on board.

 

[Crossover]

More stock is one issue, track capacity is another without extra crossing points and also the biggie is crew as all(?) Exeter services have to be double crewed with the driver for the return service travelling as passenger from Salisbury to Exeter.

Is the distance too far to work the return?

Front set berths for the night, forming the rear portion of the 0823 ish the next day.

Ah - thanks for that

 

[A Challenge]

I was on a train (the 09:20 ex WAT) and it left the back three in Andover? It does split at Salisbury, where I got off, with the front three continuing to Exeter St Davids and the back (middle) three to Bristol Temple Meads.

 

[A0]

They wouldn't be suitable in any case, while the Exeter services are fairly quick to Salisbury there is a lot of stopping and starting west of Salisbury and a HST just wouldn't keep to the timings.

Timings are only one element - the stop/start nature of the route would kill any reliability in an HST - it's the problem MML / EMT used to have with the stopping services to Nottingham / Derby. Not only were HST's slow to accelerate but they were suffering way more problems (gearboxes mainly) than the HSTs on the GWML and ECML were.

If the MML electrification were progressing then there would be some Meridians looking for a home - and the Waterloo - Exeter route wouldn't be that different to the work they currently do. But since that's on the back-burner, then we're back to looking for 158s one possible source could be Scotland - I notice Scotrail are complaining about the reliability of their 158s and looking to replace them from the Borders Rail route - but then again Scotrail seem to think 40 year old HSTs are the answer........

Would electrifying to Salisbury alleviate some of the problems? I recall that was on the cards at one point.

 

[yorksrob]

Timings are only one element - the stop/start nature of the route would kill any reliability in an HST - it's the problem MML / EMT used to have with the stopping services to Nottingham / Derby. Not only were HST's slow to accelerate but they were suffering way more problems (gearboxes mainly) than the HSTs on the GWML and ECML were.

How have they solved that - given that EMT use their HST's on the Nottingham's mainly ?

 

[embers25]

The Yeovil services are just using stock which was otherwise spare between the peaks.

That's what SWT said but prior to the Yeovil extras there were more 6 car runs to Exeter on weekdays. These got cut back as stock that previously went back to form extra coaches from London now runs to Yeovil and so isn't available and whilst that is in peak it affects the off peak due to the length of journey to Exeter and the hour turn round. Also the 158 for the pointless and often cancelled (as today) 1636 got taken off of the 1625 which used to be 6 coaches leading to a 3 coach reduction on the 1625 from Exeter. Also whenever they cancel the 1636 they don't stop the 1625 at Feniton and Whimple extra so those people just have to wait until the next train (the 1746 in the case of Whimple) which is ridiculous and hardly the improvement claimed.

 

[louis97]

I was on a train (the 09:20 ex WAT) and it left the back three in Andover? It does split at Salisbury, where I got off, with the front three continuing to Exeter St Davids and the back (middle) three to Bristol Temple Meads.

That's a limitation of the CIS system, it can't handle dividing twice where one is terminating at that location, so the set to terminate at Salisbury is advertised as coming off at Andover, with the Bristol portion dividing at Salisbury.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Cannot really run 2 two trains per hour as standard beyond Yeovil without more redoubling.

i can believe it. But, if it ever got to the point of running 2 TPH Yeovil Jcn to Exeter, how much redoubling would be needed? Anyone got a clue?

It would depend, to some extent, on the stopping patterns, one assumes. (you could, for example, run one train semi-fast, or some kind of interlacing service).

But it must be close to the point where, rather than having loops every three miles or some such, for reliable operations, you might as well say - redouble the whole caboodle, surely?

 

[TEW]

That's what SWT said but prior to the Yeovil extras there were more 6 car runs to Exeter on weekdays. These got cut back as stock that previously went back to form extra coaches from London now runs to Yeovil and so isn't available and whilst that is in peak it affects the off peak due to the length of journey to Exeter and the hour turn round. Also the 158 for the pointless and often cancelled (as today) 1636 got taken off of the 1625 which used to be 6 coaches leading to a 3 coach reduction on the 1625 from Exeter. Also whenever they cancel the 1636 they don't stop the 1625 at Feniton and Whimple extra so those people just have to wait until the next train (the 1746 in the case of Whimple) which is ridiculous and hardly the improvement claimed.

The 158 for the 1636 didn't come off the 1625, it was at Exeter anyway for the 1746 Axminster. It comes down on the 1020 from Waterloo, as it has done for the last couple of years. The 1220 off Waterloo, and 1625 off Exeter have gone from a 6 to 3-car west of Salisbury. This was said to be mitigated by the introduction of the 1636 Honiton, which admittedly isn't very reliable. An extra stop was added at Whimple today on the 1725 from Exeter St Davids due to the cancellation of the 1636.

 

[TheBigD]

i can believe it. But, if it ever got to the point of running 2 TPH Yeovil Jcn to Exeter, how much redoubling would be needed? Anyone got a clue?

It would depend, to some extent, on the stopping patterns, one assumes. (you could, for example, run one train semi-fast, or some kind of interlacing service).

But it must be close to the point where, rather than having loops every three miles or some such, for reliable operations, you might as well say - redouble the whole caboodle, surely?

Assuming a similar stopping pattern and an even 30 minutes between trains, you'd need dynamic loops roughly at Fenton and Crewkerne...

 

[A0]

How have they solved that - given that EMT use their HST's on the Nottingham's mainly ?

They've taken them off most of the stoppers - it's rare to get an HST which stops at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton now, which was common pre Meridians.

 

[fgwrich]

i can believe it. But, if it ever got to the point of running 2 TPH Yeovil Jcn to Exeter, how much redoubling would be needed? Anyone got a clue?

It would depend, to some extent, on the stopping patterns, one assumes. (you could, for example, run one train semi-fast, or some kind of interlacing service).

But it must be close to the point where, rather than having loops every three miles or some such, for reliable operations, you might as well say - redouble the whole caboodle, surely?

Assuming a similar stopping pattern and an even 30 minutes between trains, you'd need dynamic loops roughly at Fenton and Crewkerne...

Ultimately i'd like to see at least a 4 phased approach to doubling on the WOE - And possibly carried out using Chiltern Railways Evergreen Approach. So, Wilton to Tisbury - Loop extended through the station where you could make use or the closed Warehouse for second platform and Car Park, Gillingham to Templecombe - Second Platform re-instated and 'plumbed in' to the double track from there to Yeovil, Axminster Dynamic Loop extended, and Honiton (Quite possibly closer to Feniton depending on the condition of the embankment - Immediately west of Honiton the line is slewed into the middle of the fairly steep embankment that may or may not be able to re-grain a second track placed onto it without major structural works) to Pinhoe East - The problem here is that the M5 Tunnel has been built to only allow a single track running underneath it, it's not impossible to rebuild but no doubt very expensive and disruptive.

The latter part would allow the forthcoming phase of the Devon Metro to operate with more flexibility - and speed up the SWT Services on the line. Transfer some of the stops across to GW and speed up some of the Waterloo to Exeter services.

Weekend services do seem to vary, I'm often travelling between Basingstoke and Exeter (one bonus of being an Exeter Chiefs supporter!) and while most services have been 6 Car (the 07:59 - First train of the day from Waterloo on Saturdays comes up as a 3 Car), some have remained as 3 all the way to Exeter during the day. Coming back, most services remain 6 car although the 20:25 to Basingstoke is a 3 Car - sometimes conveying 3 cars OOU.

Incidentally, last weekend (17/18th) there was an issue between Exeter Central and Exeter St Davids which resulted in the following Westbound terminating in Exeter Centrals Platform 1 - Don't think I've ever seen a 6 car 159 in there before!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Yeah I know the diagram you're on about, it runs up from Salisbury, reverses at Basingstoke, sits in wallers ash and then as you say works down to totton, but like you say in the future with the 707s there's no reason that couldn't continue to brockenhurst or similar providing it's in the correct place for its return working.

There's no longer 159s sat in Basingstoke during the day unless something's gone wrong, it's usually a 450 now which works the 2Txx 1626 from basingrad (which surprisingly doesn't stop at Hilsea, but that's not important)

When the 707s come online it should in turn increase the numbers of 158/159s but I wouldn't imagine there's many units to be gained that way. 1 from the Lymington and possibly 2 in each peak, maybe 3 at a push. There can't be many diesel diagrams left that only play 3rd rail all day?

Looking at some pics of the Windsor & Eaton route that the 707s are intended for, if that's classed as a "metro" route then the 707s will likely go over to tfl meaning that another source of units would have to be found to replace the 158 on the Lymington line

 

[yorksrob]

They've taken them off most of the stoppers - it's rare to get an HST which stops at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton now, which was common pre Meridians.

Ah. Unlucky for those at Kettering and Wellingborough etc..

 

[louis97]

They've taken them off most of the stoppers - it's rare to get an HST which stops at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton now, which was common pre Meridians.

Don't think i'd describe it as 'rare'. Certainly a lot less than Midland Mainline and early East Midlands Trains days, but not rare. Plenty of HSTs calls South of Market Harborough on weekday peaks and Sundays.

 

[pompeyfan]

Looking at some pics of the Windsor & Eaton route that the 707s are intended for, if that's classed as a "metro" route then the 707s will likely go over to tfl meaning that another source of units would have to be found to replace the 158 on the Lymington line

When I was referring to 707s coming online, I meant the eventual cascades, either way there's an extra 150 coaches in SW London, which means they've got to go somewhere. It wouldn't matter if they were SWT or TfL, either way the 458s are moving which frees up 450s.

 

[embers25]

The 158 for the 1636 didn't come off the 1625, it was at Exeter anyway for the 1746 Axminster. It comes down on the 1020 from Waterloo, as it has done for the last couple of years. The 1220 off Waterloo, and 1625 off Exeter have gone from a 6 to 3-car west of Salisbury. This was said to be mitigated by the introduction of the 1636 Honiton, which admittedly isn't very reliable. An extra stop was added at Whimple today on the 1725 from Exeter St Davids due to the cancellation of the 1636.

If the 1636 is cancelled surely it makes more sense to add stops to the 1625 so as not to delay people although I suppose the 1725 is under an hour and so won't incur delay repay. The sooner the 1636 and 1707 back are removed the better as each time I use the 1420 from Waterloo we get held at Feniton as the 1707 is invariably late and leaves Honiton only just in front of the 1420 and so we have to wait at Feniton until it clears the single line section to Pinhoe. This situation happens as if the 1625 is late the 1636 has to wait at Pinhoe for the 1625 to clear the section to Feniton. Very poorly thought out.

 

[iantherev]

The 16:25 started from Exeter Central today due to the late arrival of the incoming service.

 

[Richard_B]

To run a 2tph you have to pass a train going the other way every 15mins. Working from pinhoe eastwards that means you'd have to pass just before Honiton, at Axminster, 1-2 miles east of crewkerne, at Sherborne, at Gillingham, and just east of Tisbury.

 

[swt_passenger]

Looking at some pics of the Windsor & Eaton route that the 707s are intended for, if that's classed as a "metro" route then the 707s will likely go over to tfl meaning that another source of units would have to be found to replace the 158 on the Lymington line

I find it quite extraordinary that you didn't realise that the 707s release 458/5s that release 450s to strengthen and replace services all over the SWT network, including finally getting rid the last few DMUs running on third rail routes. It must have come up in discussions dozens of times since the 707s were ordered.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I find it quite extraordinary that you didn't realise that the 707s release 458/5s that release 450s to strengthen and replace services all over the SWT network, including finally getting rid the last few DMUs running on third rail routes. It must have come up in discussions dozens of times since the 707s were ordered.

I'll believe that when it actually happens. Who knows what the next franchise holder will decide to do

 

[pompeyfan]

I'll believe that when it actually happens. Who knows what the next franchise holder will decide to do

Personally I don't think it matters what colour the train is, the 707s have to go somewhere, and there's only so many places you can put them. This will free up carriages of some form, so you either scrap perfectly serviceable 455/456s or you juggle stock around. The 707s should free up 459s for the Reading lines, which means the 450s currently used out there can be used to strengthen mid/long distance stuff or free up diesel stock which play 3rd rail, like I say though I can't imagine there will be much to be gained as only 2, possibly 3 diagrams run above the juice rail. The Lymington flyer and 1 or 2 Hampshire locals.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I don't think it matters what colour the train is, the 707s have to go somewhere, and there's only so many places you can put them. This will free up carriages of some form, so you either scrap perfectly serviceable 455/456s or you juggle stock around. The 707s should free up 459s for the Reading lines, which means the 450s currently used out there can be used to strengthen mid/long distance stuff or free up diesel stock which play 3rd rail, like I say though I can't imagine there will be much to be gained as only 2, possibly 3 diagrams run above the juice rail. The Lymington flyer and 1 or 2 Hampshire locals.

I should imagine that three additional units could make a considerable difference to weekday services west of Salisbury, considering the service is hourly to begin with. Frankly SWT need to be impressed upon to end this nonsense of running diesel services on fully electrified diagrams for their own convenience. Even if they have to operate a few units from exotic depots, at least they would still be running nearer to an adequate service on their main line. This is what matters to passengers standing in vestibules, not whether Bournemouth depot has to look after a 455.

 

[pompeyfan]

I should imagine that three additional units could make a considerable difference to weekday services west of Salisbury, considering the service is hourly to begin with. Frankly SWT need to be impressed upon to end this nonsense of running diesel services on fully electrified diagrams for their own convenience. Even if they have to operate a few units from exotic depots, at least they would still be running nearer to an adequate service on their main line. This is what matters to passengers standing in vestibules, not whether Bournemouth depot has to look after a 455.

It's not for convienience that they use 158s, they'd love to use 450s but there just isn't enough spare units, every day there's multiple diagrams that are short formed due to lack of stock, and you can't even say it's due to poor maintenance on SWTs part as the stock and their fleet team constantly win awards and their units too fleet reliability tables.

I do think the argument of Stock knowledge for crew is now a non stater as there's only 1 unit in the depot, it doesn't matter if it's a 158 or 455.