30% of TPE services cancelled Thursday 8 June

[Wyrleybart]

Sounds like the multiple crew changes dont help, 1 member of staff not available, crew cover the whole Liverpool - Newcastle or whatever out and back, 2 trains cancelled. Current situation: crew cover 1/3 of journey on 6 services, 6 services cancelled due to 1 staff shortage. I am not in the railway industry, but the issue isn't hard to grasp, so how those in charge that insisted on that method of working managed to overlook it is the question. My answer would be either incompetance or negligance.

You have it in a nutshell Mike. So why don't TPE management get that. You need four resources to run a train

Timetable
Unit
Driver
Guard

If the timetable is robust you need the other three to operate as simply as possible, which means running fewer longer trains. Every time a train stops and crewe get off you import risk

 

[43066]

This is a very good question. If no answer is forthcoming we will have to assume that the union side has something to hide.

At least one example has been given upthread - refusal to stick to annual leave arrangements.

Are you suggesting that the various posters who work for TPE are lying?

 

[NI 271]

I was wondering that too.

TPE contract ended 28th May, so not like it was first day of new organisation. One assumes there is limits on number of staff who can book holidays on any given day, and no logical reason why sickness would suddenly occur. So why a random Thursday.

If those who left a week and a half ago were all originally rostered to be working yesterday, but some on different rest days in the preceding week and a half, the issue would become far more acute on the day. It's far from impossible, indeed it's far from unlikely, imo. Remember, the way TPE operate, it only really needs one member of staff on one short portion of a journey to be absent, for that entire journey to be canned.

 

[ainsworth74]

This is a very good question. If no answer is forthcoming we will have to assume that the union side has something to hide.

I'm not sure any Union has any duty to air its dirty laundry in public, equally if the roles were reversed I'm not sure that TOC management would have a duty to air their dirty laundry in public.

Indeed it strikes me that doing so by either side is likely to hinder reaching an agreement if there is a lot of sniping going on!

 

[Urobach]

This is a very good question. If no answer is forthcoming we will have to assume that the union side has something to hide.

Or perhaps not suitable to be posted on a public forum?

 

[KGX]

Sounds like the multiple crew changes dont help, 1 member of staff not available, crew cover the whole Liverpool - Newcastle or whatever out and back, 2 trains cancelled. Current situation: crew cover 1/3 of journey on 6 services, 6 services cancelled due to 1 staff shortage. I am not in the railway industry, but the issue isn't hard to grasp, so how those in charge that insisted on that method of working managed to overlook it is the question. My answer would be either incompetance or negligance.

You have it in a nutshell Mike. So why don't TPE management get that. You need four resources to run a train

Timetable
Unit
Driver
Guard

If the timetable is robust you need the other three to operate as simply as possible, which means running fewer longer trains. Every time a train stops and crewe get off you import risk

Are they taking any measures to undo this unreliable set up?

 

[Confused52]

At least one example has been given upthread - refusal to stick to annual leave arrangements.

My annual leave arrangements have always had to be subject to the needs of the business. Many of the listed breaches by the company are given in a very generalised way where it is not reasonable to extrapolate the description to a point where it justifies the scale of action that has been taken. Clearly you do not work there so your views are no better than mine, but someone knows.

Your other point is just attempted diversion, lets stick to the point of the enquiry where the questioner asked "What exactly are the non-compliances that are happening?"

 

[Clarence Yard]

Are they taking any measures to undo this unreliable set up?

TPE couldn’t get the DfT to agree to reversing out of this mess - we have discussed this before. It will mean more staff and more training costs, which is why it was done (with the blessing of the DfT, who love optimised diagramming) in the first place.

Only one TPE director was offered a contract by First and she has gone back to the parent company.

I’d forgotten about her! I’m not too sure why she returned, unless she was actually only seconded to TPE in the first place.

It would be good if OLR actually declared how many train crew didn’t transfer over, but the DfT currently may be reluctant to let them say.

 

[VauxhallNova]

TPE couldn’t get the DfT to agree to reversing out of this mess - we have discussed this before. It will mean more staff and more training costs, which is why it was done (with the blessing of the DfT, who love optimised diagramming) in the first place.

First were on risk for costs when these changes were originally made, with the authority managing the Schedule 7.1 performance metrics.

The way those commercial conversations go (as for the settlement after the franchise) is never that the TOCs say what a mess they are in with traincrew, as that would be admitting liability.

It's obviously different now DfT are taking cost risk, but it must have been quite the about-turn to go from saying (for 4 years) that performance issues were nothing to do with traincrew availability, to "we need 200 more drivers".

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

TPE couldn’t get the DfT to agree to reversing out of this mess - we have discussed this before. It will mean more staff and more training costs, which is why it was done (with the blessing of the DfT, who love optimised diagramming) in the first place.

After the debacles of GTR-Thameslink and Northern/TPE in May 2018, one has to wonder… why?!? Unless I’m mistaken, over-optimised (read:- over-complex and fragile) diagrams were a factor in both.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Are they taking any measures to undo this unreliable set up?

In short, no. Because the same rostering, diagramming and planning managers are still in charge of their relevant departments and one of those managers has already stated that he isn't going to change any working practices he has been following for the last 20 odd years...

TPE couldn’t get the DfT to agree to reversing out of this mess - we have discussed this before. It will mean more staff and more training costs, which is why it was done (with the blessing of the DfT, who love optimised diagramming) in the first place.

Thus is where I think the TOC management under the umbrella of the Rail Delivery Group are missing a trick. If they were to go public with the truth and speak out against the DfT they would not only earn the respect and support of the public and the railway staff, but they would also have a collective barganing chip of their own to play. That would make the DfT stand up and listen and work with TOC management and the unions. they wouldn't be able to handle the keys of all 14 remaining franchises in one go and the DfT know the RDG/TOCs have nothing to lose here. However they simply wont because the current arrangements are a no risk easy albeit small profit for the owning companies and they don't want to rock the boat for fear of losing any future franchise/contract awards

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In short, no. Because the same rostering, diagramming and planning managers are still in charge of their relevant departments and one of those managers has already stated that he isnt going to change any working practices he has been following for the last 20 odd years...

Couldn't that particular manager be "invited" to a meeting to inform him that matters are now changed and that things what occurred before are no longer valid?

 

[Clarence Yard]

First were on risk for costs when these changes were originally made, with the authority managing the Schedule 7.1 performance metrics.

The way those commercial conversations go (as for the settlement after the franchise) is never that the TOCs say what a mess they are in with traincrew, as that would be admitting liability.

It's obviously different now DfT are taking cost risk, but it must have been quite the about-turn to go from saying (for 4 years) that performance issues were nothing to do with traincrew availability, to "we need 200 more drivers".

In this case the train crew position was laid bare before the DfT when the franchise was ended in 2020 and the settlement to go onto an EMA/ERMA was made on this basis. The poor position with crew was known and DfT decisions on crew since 2020 have been both late and inadequate.

Until the disastrous “optimised” train crew policies are reversed, with the accompanying money that is needed from the DfT to rectify the situation, TPE will continue to be a hopeless basket case.

If I was the MD, any manager trying to undo what I wanted to happen would not be long in their job. Even on BR we could be quite brutal with MS staff who didn’t behave.

 

[KGX]

In short, no. Because the same rostering, diagramming and planning managers are still in charge of their relevant departments and one of those managers has already stated that he isn't going to change any working practices he has been following for the last 20 odd years...

Seems to be an alarming lack of awareness, given the current state of the service.

 

[LowLevel]

TPE is a poisonous nonsense. My own TOC has been riddled with the same industrial issues as all of them but the key difference is the management team and the staff have retained a modicum of respect for one another.

I routinely rescue stranded TPE crews and what you hear from them about their relations with their control and resources teams wouldn't figure in our worst nightmares. They need a total reset and restart but who knows how you achieve that with the current political influences.

The sad thing is they clearly have plenty of people who care about providing a decent service, because we don't just rescue drivers and guards - I've shared my workspace with drivers, guards, revenue protection, operational managers etc and they have all the elements to do so well. They all, and their customers, deserve so much better than this absolute mess.

 

[Cowley]

TPE is a poisonous nonsense. My own TOC has been riddled with the same industrial issues as all of them but the key difference is the management team and the staff have retained a modicum of respect for one another.

I routinely rescue stranded TPE crews and what you hear from them about their relations with their control and resources teams wouldn't figure in our worst nightmares. They need a total reset and restart but who knows how you achieve that with the current political influences.

The sad thing is they clearly have plenty of people who care about providing a decent service, because we don't just rescue drivers and guards - I've shared my workspace with drivers, guards, revenue protection, operational managers etc and they have all the elements to do so well. They all, and their customers, deserve so much better than this absolute mess.

This feels like a good place to leave things for now.

Thanks everyone