317/7 Demonstrator Unit

[SPADTrap]

I think the question was why did Control not know that, not criticism of the drivers, who obviously have to know what's different about it. How does it handle when coupled to another 317, or is that prohibited at the moment?

It has regen braking but I saw it pass the other day coupled to another 317 so guess it's allowed although heard when the regen drops in and out it cause a bit of clattering!

 

[scott118]

can the regen braking not be isolated?

 

[SPADTrap]

can the regen braking not be isolated?

My depot doesn't sign it so not sure of the intricacies.

 

[hassaanhc]

317722 is with 317660 on the 2O48 1717 Stratford (London) to Hertford East

 

[MatthewRead]

Does anyone know what tomorrow's diagrams for the demonstrator will be?

 

[MrPIC]

Its stuck on Stratford-Stortfords if its running at all. Haven't seen it in a while since it last broke though!

 

[MatthewRead]

Didn't see it today someone let me know when it is running again please

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Didn't see it today someone let me know when it is running again please

Broken again at the moment. Not sure when it'll be back in traffic. Been back at Ilford since the 3rd Feb.

 

[MatthewRead]

Broken again at the moment. Not sure when it'll be back in traffic. Been back at Ilford since the 3rd Feb.

Apparently it's back in service it was noted yesterday on a Stratford-Bishops Stortford service.

 

[MrPIC]

Certainly was! I was on it!

 

[SPADTrap]

Certainly was! I was on it!

The most fabulous working south of Cambridge too!

 

[MrPIC]

 

[317666]

I spotted it at Tottenham Hale yesterday while waiting for the 2210 to Cambridge (it was heading to Stratford).

 

[samuelmorris]

With the amount of time this unit has spent out of service, the lack of news regarding future developments of it (considering the 321 re-traction came afterwards and more to the same spec are already being converted), the increased age of the 317s and the proximity to the end of the franchise, does it seem very likely that the 317 refurbishment project will ever make it beyond the demonstrator? Quite a fuss has been made of the 321 'Renatus' but it's only when I saw how long ago it was when 317722 first entered traffic in its current state that I realised how long it's been without any news about the plan's future. While I'm not one for advocating the premature retirement of EMUs, with the 317/5s fast approaching 36 years of age, I wonder whether the new TOC is going to consider the extra life they might get out of a full refurbishment worth the investment at this late stage.

 

[D365]

If Greater Anglia picks up the ex-GN/Northern 321s/322s and the HC 360s, my feeling is that it should be enough to replace (most of) their Class 317s (from the original BedPan build). If there were ongoing electrification works in the Eastern region then it might have been enough to give them a reprieve, but sadly there are none in sight. The ROSCOs collectively seem to be moving towards the cascade of later 80s-built units, rather than seeking prospective uses for Classes 313-317.

 

[samuelmorris]

Hmm, well there'd be 21 317/5 or /8s to replace excluding the /7 demonstrator, quite conveniently there are 21 321/322s available from GN and Northern. If that's a likely outcome for their relocation then it'd make sense, but it wouldn't add any additional capacity - I'm not sure what scope or requirement there is for that on the West Anglia side, but even if all those units are moved to serve Liverpool Street (I had originally assumed some were going to Scotrail for the 320 conversion but perhaps the London Midland 7 are sufficient for that?), it just seems unlikely to me given the current high demand for rolling stock that all the effort involved with that cascade would achieve nothing more than scrapping 36 year old units to replace them with an equal number of 28 year old units and provide a negligible improvement to passenger experience, journey times and reliability, without carrying out an extensive refurbishment which they could still have performed on the 317s anyway. I just get the feeling that the DfT and/or TOCs involved would want to get more out of such a deal than that, such as an actual increase in the number of available units - hinting that perhaps not all of the original build 317s would be scrapped, and if not, what then?

 

[jopsuk]

not quite sure the advantage there, as there's still then 24 317/6 which are often found coupled to a 317/5 or /8 at Cambridge. The only way to achieve a properly "unified" mark 3 fleet out of Liverpool Street would be a heavier rebuild of the lot with identical electrical systems.

 

[samuelmorris]

Agreed - however, by the time such a project would be completed, the earlier 317s would need to remain in service until they are over 50 years old to justify the cost of doing it. Is it worth it?

 

[jopsuk]

Of course not.

I'm mildly optimistic that the franchise bids might look at stock modernisation. Though CR2 and STAR mean uncertainty over who'll run Hertford and Stortford services I'd guess.

 

[MrPIC]

The rumour flying round is that some 387's will be heading our way, but not sure how true that is. Electrostars would make sense on west anglia, what with the 379's essentially every other train on the valley.
The trouble is, the interior of the new half of 722 was fine for inner suburban work, but you wouldn't want to sit on that to Cambridge. Personally I think the refurbed interior of the /600's is most suitable for the work, 2+2 seating, nice and comfy with little tiny tables to boot.

 

[samuelmorris]

Would be very nice, but there's likely to be hot competition for the remaining 14 (I'm assuming they're the 387s we're discussing?), is West Anglia going to be the best location for them? It also isn't going to be sufficient to do away with all the early 317s.

The refresh on the 317/6s looks fairly satisfactory, but I think it'd probably need to be paired up with AC traction at the very least, if not also an air-conditioned interior if they want to keep the units in service for considerable time to come.

 

[387star]

When is the new franchise winner to,be announced can't be long

I womder if abellio keep it they will have to withdraw the abellio nake again or call it something completely different

 

[MrPIC]

If Abellio win the new franchise I understand it will be a "new" company, rebrand and new uniform etc. Lord knows why. I guess whoever wins, my train livery ocd won't be satisfied for a long while yet!

 

[317666]

I wonder whether it would be worth giving the 317s the same work as is currently being done to the 321s. It would mean better standardisation compared to the 321s having Vossloh traction equipment and the 317s Bombardier. If the same interior was used that could also make interior maintenance easier. Seeing as 317722 has spent long periods out of traffic, perhaps the Bombardier traction equipment is not reliable enough compared to Vossloh's? (All speculation on my part, don't shoot me if I've got it wrong!)

 

[MatthewRead]

I wonder whether it would be worth giving the 317s the same work as is currently being done to the 321s. It would mean better standardisation compared to the 321s having Vossloh traction equipment and the 317s Bombardier. If the same interior was used that could also make interior maintenance easier. Seeing as 317722 has spent long periods out of traffic, perhaps the Bombardier traction equipment is not reliable enough compared to Vossloh's? (All speculation on my part, don't shoot me if I've got it wrong!)

Good Point

 

[samuelmorris]

A standardised fleet that can be used on either route and in multiple would make sense, I had just assumed that it wouldn't be practical to achieve this with 317s and 321s for whatever reason.

 

[D365]

A standardised fleet that can be used on either route and in multiple would make sense, I had just assumed that it wouldn't be practical to achieve this with 317s and 321s for whatever reason.

It's been done before, though I'm unsure if this feat has been repeated in revenue-earning service.

 

[SPADTrap]

It's been done before, though I'm unsure if this feat has been repeated in revenue-earning service.

You'll see 317s and 321s coupled regularly on the GE out of Ilford on ECS fitters trials trips. Even the odd 315/321/317 I've seen formed. No reason why 317s and 321s won't work beyond who signs what. 315s are different but that's not relevant.

 

[MrPIC]

The door systems don't work properly when 317 and 321 are coupled, it causes the hustle alarms to sound continuously. I've a feeling that the 317's will be binned for new stock, and that 321's will remain on GE, just upgraded, and maybe if there are more displaced 321's about, replace the 360's too.

 

[D365]

The door systems don't work properly when 317 and 321 are coupled, it causes the hustle alarms to sound continuously. I've a feeling that the 317's will be binned for new stock, and that 321's will remain on GE, just upgraded, and maybe if there are more displaced 321's about, replace the 360's too.

There aren't enough units of Class 321/322 to replace the complete 317 and 360 Greater Anglia fleets. Can't see where the latter would go to anyway.