379 compatibility with other electrostars?

[RealTrains07]

With the soon to be end of operation for the 379s on greater anglia. One thing I have been wondering as has a lot of people following the recent announcement of the end of the 365s time with Great Northern.

Are the 379s compatible with any other electrostars as I have heard conflicting views from both sides over the years?

 

[fgwrich]

With the soon to be end of operation for the 379s on greater anglia. One thing I have been wondering as has a lot of people following the recent announcement of the end of the 365s time with Great Northern.

Are the 379s compatible with any other electrostars as I have heard conflicting views from both sides over the years?

No, the 379s have the "Aventra Mk1" software installed, making them slightly different to the late build 377s. I believe the 387s have a modified version of the software fitted to the 377s to allow them to couple together in emergency situations.

Ironically, I believe that some of the current "Aventras" are using Electrostar software to get them working.

 

[Energy]

No, the 379s have the "Aventra Mk1" software installed, making them slightly different to the late build 377s. I believe the 387s have a modified version of the software fitted to the 377s to allow them to couple together in emergency situations.

Ironically, I believe that some of the current "Aventras" are using Electrostar software to get them working.

Late 377s, 379s and 387s have the same software?

 

[D365]

Ironically, I believe that some of the current "Aventras" are using Electrostar software to get them working.

The Crossrail 345s I think that might be.

 

[aleggatta]

This is always a topic that gets misinterpreted along the way, so I'll try and break the systems down to give a clear understanding.

The TCMS (Train control & management system) Mitrac is effectively the same on all electrostars. It has received software updates over the years but generally this is developed on a toc by toc basis, with its requirements being adjusted to suit each customer, but the general consensus I got from a Bombardier tech was that this part of the software will talk across all styles of unit with compatible couplers however this is not formally signed off which I believe creates the 'no 375/7 coupling' rule on Southeastern.

CCTV and DOO(Driver only operation) systems differ between Electrostars. The 377's were fitted with a Faiveley DOO system, and this is only compatible with other Faiveley fitted Electrostars. CCTV even within class differs on 377's, but as there was no requirement for CCTV images to be able to be visible from the leading cab this has never been a dealbreaker (and doesn't stop a train running). 379's and 387's are fitted with a Petards DOO and CCTV system that is also fitted to the 700's. The 377/6&7's are fitted with Petards CCTV and Faiveley DOO kit.

The only system remaining that has any real impact when working in multiple is the PIS and Pass comm system. As far as I can remember the PIS just requires all units to have the same databases installed, but the Pass Comm system incompatibility is what prevents 377's and 387's coupling, but I can't see that being impossible to overcome. I don't know where the 379's fit on this area but suspect it will be 387 side of the line.

I think that covers all of the 'cross unit' systems, but it is also worth noting, that a lot of the upgrades the 377/387's are scheduled to going to create a more harmonised fleet, with (I believe) all units having the Petards CCTV. The only disappointment I can see with the GTR upgrade is that they don't move away from the Faiveley kit over to the Petards kit, which would effectively create one big fleet of Electrostars that are fully compatible with each other.

I know another area of incompatibility that was advertised was surrounding the (regulatory?) requirement for a second data backbone on the Mitrac TCMS for redundancy, and this came in at the 379 build, but when it came to the last batches of 377's it was set up so that if coupled to a compatible unit it would work, but if not it was set so it would not throw a fault and this was permitted in the relevant regulations?

TLR 379s should be compatible with 387's at least, but compatibility has to be formally confirmed rather than theoretically so has never happened

also, quite happy to be corrected if i've got anything wrong!

 

[AM9]

This is always a topic that gets misinterpreted along the way, so I'll try and break the systems down to give a clear understanding.

The TCMS (Train control & management system) Mitrac is effectively the same on all electrostars. It has received software updates over the years but generally this is developed on a toc by toc basis, with its requirements being adjusted to suit each customer, but the general consensus I got from a Bombardier tech was that this part of the software will talk across all styles of unit with compatible couplers however this is not formally signed off which I believe creates the 'no 375/7 coupling' rule on Southeastern.

CCTV and DOO(Driver only operation) systems differ between Electrostars. The 377's were fitted with a Faiveley DOO system, and this is only compatible with other Faiveley fitted Electrostars. CCTV even within class differs on 377's, but as there was no requirement for CCTV images to be able to be visible from the leading cab this has never been a dealbreaker (and doesn't stop a train running). 379's and 387's are fitted with a Petards DOO and CCTV system that is also fitted to the 700's. The 377/6&7's are fitted with Petards CCTV and Faiveley DOO kit.

The only system remaining that has any real impact when working in multiple is the PIS and Pass comm system. As far as I can remember the PIS just requires all units to have the same databases installed, but the Pass Comm system incompatibility is what prevents 377's and 387's coupling, but I can't see that being impossible to overcome. I don't know where the 379's fit on this area but suspect it will be 387 side of the line.

I think that covers all of the 'cross unit' systems, but it is also worth noting, that a lot of the upgrades the 377/387's are scheduled to going to create a more harmonised fleet, with (I believe) all units having the Petards CCTV. The only disappointment I can see with the GTR upgrade is that they don't move away from the Faiveley kit over to the Petards kit, which would effectively create one big fleet of Electrostars that are fully compatible with each other.

I know another area of incompatibility that was advertised was surrounding the (regulatory?) requirement for a second data backbone on the Mitrac TCMS for redundancy, and this came in at the 379 build, but when it came to the last batches of 377's it was set up so that if coupled to a compatible unit it would work, but if not it was set so it would not throw a fault and this was permitted in the relevant regulations?

TLR 379s should be compatible with 387's at least, but compatibility has to be formally confirmed rather than theoretically so has never happened

also, quite happy to be corrected if i've got anything wrong!

Very interesting. I suppose there must somewhere, be a table of all Electrostar classes and sub-classes showing their intended and certified compatibilities.

 

[O L Leigh]

Cl379s had a number of issues at introduction that required a concerted program of MITRAC updates to fix, during which the fleet was effectively split so that units that had the most recent upgrade were not permitted to couple with units that were still awaiting it. This was primarily due to issues with the SDO and as it was not known how the two versions of the software might interact with each other, it was decided not to take the risk.

My feeling, building on what @aleggatta says above, is that these units could be made compatible but probably aren't at the present moment. As well as systems that might need to changing there would need to be checks to ensure that a common MITRAC system could be used and prove adequately stable across the fleets.