3tph on North Downs Line

[DelW]

Indeed, but the cost of providing bridges to replace these crossings would be so enormous as to kill any business case.

Oh, I agree. At Betchworth it looks feasible to divert the road over a new bridge east of the existing crossing, but of course at considerable cost. At Reigate it's hard to see any possibility of grade separation near the existing crossing without an impractical amount of demolition. Diverting A217 traffic to the A242 and/or Nutley Lane would need major changes to the local road system and would no doubt produce a lot of resistance from residents of the roads affected.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Re Open Train Times: Network Rail cannot legally provide timetable paths to an operator and publish in the master timetable until all contractual and legal issues have been sorted out, of which this is very much one. Therefore the May 2017 timetable will contain the existing service, plus any minor non-service enhancing alterations that the TOC may have requested.

 

[Minstral25]

Indeed, but the cost of providing bridges to replace these crossings would be so enormous as to kill any business case.

I think the cost of disruption to businesses and residents in Reigate caused by the extra train would likely wreck the business case of the extra train!

 

[Deepgreen]

I think the cost of disruption to businesses and residents in Reigate caused by the extra train would likely wreck the business case of the extra train!

I do wonder what needs to be done specifically at Reigate level crossing to permit one extra train per hour each way. I suspect nothing needs doing there (it already has full barriers, lights, CCTV, signage and a manned signal box at the crossing, but other crossings on the NDL may need work. It appears that franchise agreements/requirements do not necessarily become translated into work streams very well.

 

[Minstral25]

I do wonder what needs to be done specifically at Reigate level crossing to permit one extra train per hour each way. I suspect nothing needs doing there (it already has full barriers, lights, CCTV, signage and a manned signal box at the crossing, but other crossings on the NDL may need work. It appears that franchise agreements/requirements do not necessarily become translated into work streams very well.

I don't think the issue at Reigate is the work required on the Level Crossing to bring it up to acceptable quality from a Railway perspective but what needs to be done in Reigate to prevent/relieve the traffic issues that would be caused by it being down a lot longer.

I passed by car at 6:15am this morning and the stationary traffic queue was back past the Red Cross well down behind me into the town centre, this is before peak hour and shows how bad it will get with extra trains. To be fair I expect it would clear within 10 minutes after the trains had gone but at peak has the effect of blocking the A25 as well a the A217.

 

[Deepgreen]

I don't think the issue at Reigate is the work required on the Level Crossing to bring it up to acceptable quality from a Railway perspective but what needs to be done in Reigate to prevent/relieve the traffic issues that would be caused by it being down a lot longer.

I passed by car at 6:15am this morning and the stationary traffic queue was back past the Red Cross well down behind me into the town centre, this is before peak hour and shows how bad it will get with extra trains. To be fair I expect it would clear within 10 minutes after the trains had gone but at peak has the effect of blocking the A25 as well a the A217.

Does the state of the road system really dictate what the railway can run? If so, there are countless issues around the country that would prevent the existing service from running. let alone any increases!

BTW, the 0818 from Betchworth was 25 late from Reading this morning, and omitted almost all the intermediate stops, to the extent that it passed Betchworth early and arrived at Redhill 3 minutes early!! Despite this, it was still late on its return journey!! The inflexibility of amended stop orders is appalling. Questions will be asked...

 

[Minstral25]

Does the state of the road system really dictate what the railway can run? If so, there are countless issues around the country that would prevent the existing service from running. let alone any increases!

Yes it does when the Railway interface affects the Road System significantly. In this case a very busy road intersects a quieter Railway line and as importantly a major Road intersection (A217/A25) is affected by the Railway too.

Far more people will be inconvenienced by the extra trains than will travel on them. This is an additional service not a current service so the reference to existing issues is not relevant here.

Traffic on North Downs Line is (in my opinion) not significant enough to justify increase to 3 trains per hour between Guildford and Gatwick although the service is very valuable to local communities. That is why I suggested that 2 per hour to Gatwick only, in an alternating pattern between Guildford and Redhill. That is Shalford, Chilworth and Gomshall for one train and Dorking West and Betchworth on the other train. All services calling at Dorking Deepdene, Reigate and Redhill.

Obviously this increases journey time by around 10 minutes but it is a community service rather than a fast train to the airport and I can't imagine Airport passengers using it once or twice a year would be put off by an extra 10 minutes - it's more about not carrying suitcases everywhere.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes it does when the Railway interface affects the Road System significantly. In this case a very busy road intersects a quieter Railway line and as importantly a major Road intersection (A217/A25) is affected by the Railway too.

Far more people will be inconvenienced by the extra trains than will travel on them. This is an additional service not a current service so the reference to existing issues is not relevant here.

Traffic on North Downs Line is (in my opinion) not significant enough to justify increase to 3 trains per hour between Guildford and Gatwick although the service is very valuable to local communities. That is why I suggested that 2 per hour to Gatwick only, in an alternating pattern between Guildford and Redhill. That is Shalford, Chilworth and Gomshall for one train and Dorking West and Betchworth on the other train. All services calling at Dorking Deepdene, Reigate and Redhill.

Obviously this increases journey time by around 10 minutes but it is a community service rather than a fast train to the airport and I can't imagine Airport passengers using it once or twice a year would be put off by an extra 10 minutes - it's more about not carrying suitcases everywhere.

However, it is a franchise requirement and should have been planned accordingly (by the 'customer' and the provider/TOC), including the issue around level crossings.

 

[FenMan]

Traffic on North Downs Line is (in my opinion) not significant enough to justify increase to 3 trains per hour between Guildford and Gatwick although the service is very valuable to local communities. That is why I suggested that 2 per hour to Gatwick only, in an alternating pattern between Guildford and Redhill. That is Shalford, Chilworth and Gomshall for one train and Dorking West and Betchworth on the other train. All services calling at Dorking Deepdene, Reigate and Redhill.

Obviously this increases journey time by around 10 minutes but it is a community service rather than a fast train to the airport and I can't imagine Airport passengers using it once or twice a year would be put off by an extra 10 minutes - it's more about not carrying suitcases everywhere.

The North Downs Line is three railways in one.

The only community services are the hourly Redhill stoppers east of Guildford.

The Reading-Guildford stretch increasingly has become a major commuting railway and is busy all day.

The Reading - Gatwick services are well used, but traffic is being artificially dampened as the service is only hourly. DfT and GWR's push for 2tph would unlock a lot of pent-up demand.

Your comments also infer that Gatwick is a holiday airport. It was once. With Heathrow at capacity it now attracts more passengers a year (many travelling on business) than major hubs such as Sydney Airport - 43 million v 42 million. Usage has increased by 9 million passengers a year in the last 10 years, so it's entirely understandable that GWR wants to grab a bigger slice of the pie.

 

[Deepgreen]

The North Downs Line is three railways in one.

The only community services are the hourly Redhill stoppers east of Guildford.

The Reading-Guildford stretch increasingly has become a major commuting railway and is busy all day.

The Reading - Gatwick services are well used, but traffic is being artificially dampened as the service is only hourly. DfT and GWR's push for 2tph would unlock a lot of pent-up demand.

Your comments also infer that Gatwick is a holiday airport. It was once. With Heathrow at capacity it now attracts more passengers a year (many travelling on business) than major hubs such as Sydney Airport - 43 million v 42 million. Usage has increased by 9 million passengers a year in the last 10 years, so it's entirely understandable that GWR wants to grab a bigger slice of the pie.

Two hourly off-peak at Betchworth, Dorking West, Gomshall and Chilworth, with alternating calling patterns, making many local journeys awkward.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I don't think two slower semi fast services per hour would come anywhere near fulfilling either the operators aspirations or what the market needs. There is seriously unfulfilled demand for through travel to Gatwick, to the extent that considerations have been made towards providing overnight services of either the train or bus variety. To date neither have come to anything but the fact it's being considered says it all really. On Boxing Day the RailAir coach is extended to Gatwick incidentally, via Heathrow.

 

[Minstral25]

I don't think two slower semi fast services per hour would come anywhere near fulfilling either the operators aspirations or what the market needs. There is seriously unfulfilled demand for through travel to Gatwick, to the extent that considerations have been made towards providing overnight services of either the train or bus variety. To date neither have come to anything but the fact it's being considered says it all really. On Boxing Day the RailAir coach is extended to Gatwick incidentally, via Heathrow.

Agree but Airport traffic is mostly leisure traffic on NDL as business users tend to drive. Airport split is UK business 10 %, UK leisure 60 %, Overseas business 7 %; Overseas leisure 23 % (i.e. 83% Leisure) - Figures from Gatwick Airport Limited

Leisure users want a regular service (half-hourly) as they turn up on the platform with their suitcases and want to get on a train but 10 minutes longer is not a big issue. So half-hourly will increase numbers and tap into that unfulfilled demand very well.

In any case as a regular traveller on the routes Gatwick Airport trains (Reigate to Guildford) I do not see hordes of Airport travellers, but lots of local travellers. Half hourly but 10 minutes longer won't effect them too bad as the better service makes up for the time lost. (in my opinion obviously)

It is a good aspiration but when the plan was set consideration was not given to the people of Reigate and the other effects of that plan. Just because it is in the "franchise" does not make it a good idea.

 

[JamesRowden]

Agree but Airport traffic is mostly leisure traffic on NDL as business users tend to drive. Airport split is UK business 10 %, UK leisure 60 %, Overseas business 7 %; Overseas leisure 23 % (i.e. 83% Leisure) - Figures from Gatwick Airport Limited

Leisure users want a regular service (half-hourly) as they turn up on the platform with their suitcases and want to get on a train but 10 minutes longer is not a big issue. So half-hourly will increase numbers and tap into that unfulfilled demand very well.

In any case as a regular traveller on the routes Gatwick Airport trains (Reigate to Guildford) I do not see hordes of Airport travellers, but lots of local travellers. Half hourly but 10 minutes longer won't effect them too bad as the better service makes up for the time lost. (in my opinion obviously)

It is a good aspiration but when the plan was set consideration was not given to the people of Reigate and the other effects of that plan. Just because it is in the "franchise" does not make it a good idea.

The North Downs Line is the fastest route between Reading and Brighton. People using the line as a London bypass use spare capacity on trains west of Reading, east of Redhill and South of Gatwick. So someone traveling from Cardiff to Brighton via the North Downs line primarily only costs the rail industry the cost of providing capacity on the North Downs Line. A 2tph semi-fast Reading-Gatwick service would make such journeys routed via the North Downs Line more attractive.

 

[infobleep]

The North Downs Line is the fastest route between Reading and Brighton. People using the line as a London bypass use spare capacity on trains west of Reading, east of Redhill and South of Gatwick. So someone traveling from Cardiff to Brighton via the North Downs line primarily only costs the rail industry the cost of providing capacity on the North Downs Line. A 2tph semi-fast Reading-Gatwick service would make such journeys routed via the North Downs Line more attractive.

But are more advanced cheaper tickets available via Central London than the North Downs Line? For example if I was to go to York, I can get cheaper tickets via Kings Cross from stations such as Guildford than via Reading. Personally I'd prefer to avoid London but to do so is often more expensive when travelling to the north.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In any case as a regular traveller on the routes Gatwick Airport trains (Reigate to Guildford) I do not see hordes of Airport travellers, but lots of local travellers. Half hourly but 10 minutes longer won't effect them too bad as the better service makes up for the time lost. (in my opinion obviously)

It is a good aspiration but when the plan was set consideration was not given to the people of Reigate and the other effects of that plan. Just because it is in the "franchise" does not make it a good idea.

Forgive my asking, but do you travel on a wide variety of services on the route or generally the same 1 or 2 services each time? I only ask because as a commuter myself I know its easy to see the loadings on the few trains travelled on and imagine they are representative of the whole service.

 

[FenMan]

Forgive my asking, but do you travel on a wide variety of services on the route or generally the same 1 or 2 services each time? I only ask because as a commuter myself I know its easy to see the loadings on the few trains travelled on and imagine they are representative of the whole service.

It might be understandable for a Reigate resident and occasional user of that part of the NDL to conclude that it is a sleepy community railway. However that conclusion would be well off target.

 

[Phil.]

Gomshall's new bridge:

Acknowledgement: www.sheredelight.com

Bit unnecessary and a blot on the landscape, a thing like that. Just think how easy it would have been to install electrically locked (by the 'box) gates like those at Melton Mowbray for people with bicycles and wheelchairs.

 

[NSEFAN]

Bit unnecessary and a blot on the landscape, a thing like that. Just think how easy it would have been to install electrically locked (by the 'box) gates like those at Melton Mowbray for people with bicycles and wheelchairs.

There's 2 issues with that, firstly disabled access is probably better with a bridge + ramp, compared to a level crossing with gates. Secondly putting locked gates in will only encourage people to jump them in order to avoid missing their train.

 

[simonw]

Bit unnecessary and a blot on the landscape, a thing like that. Just think how easy it would have been to install electrically locked (by the 'box) gates like those at Melton Mowbray for people with bicycles and wheelchairs.

It does seem over the top, but there is no local box from which gates could be controlled. In addition, there is only car parking on one side of the station therefore a number of passengers cross the line here. Plus there is the issue of staggered platforms with the potential for passengers to step into the path of a 'hidden' train.

 

[Phil.]

There's 2 issues with that, firstly disabled access is probably better with a bridge + ramp, compared to a level crossing with gates. Secondly putting locked gates in will only encourage people to jump them in order to avoid missing their train.

Not if they're high enough and built of vertical steel strips so as to afford no purchase for hands or feet. The new bridge is a monstrosity which given that the North Downs is a designated are of outstanding natural beauty should never have been built in the design that it has.

 

[Phil.]

It does seem over the top, but there is no local box from which gates could be controlled. In addition, there is only car parking on one side of the station therefore a number of passengers cross the line here. Plus there is the issue of staggered platforms with the potential for passengers to step into the path of a 'hidden' train.

Electrically released following a telephone request. The 'box could be located in Penzance, it's how long a piece of electrical cabling has to be. Reigate to Gomshall is nowhere near the distance from Farringdon to Three Bridges. How did the passengers cross the line before that monstrosity of a bridge was built?

 

[NSEFAN]

Not if they're high enough and built of vertical steel strips so as to afford no purchase for hands or feet. The new bridge is a monstrosity which given that the North Downs is a designated are of outstanding natural beauty should never have been built in the design that it has.

You'd be surprised at how strong peoples' instinct is to get around obstacles when they're set on catching that train. Far better to remove the risk altogether, and these days you have to also provide disabled access when doing so (hence the ramps, as lifts are even more expensive). Safety and disabled access probably trump the ANOB requirements.

 

[JamesRowden]

But are more advanced cheaper tickets available via Central London than the North Downs Line? For example if I was to go to York, I can get cheaper tickets via Kings Cross from stations such as Guildford than via Reading. Personally I'd prefer to avoid London but to do so is often more expensive when travelling to the north.

I was referring to journeys between the West and the South, not the North.

 

[Deepgreen]

Electrically released following a telephone request. The 'box could be located in Penzance, it's how long a piece of electrical cabling has to be. Reigate to Gomshall is nowhere near the distance from Farringdon to Three Bridges. How did the passengers cross the line before that monstrosity of a bridge was built?

There was a gated crossing between the staggered platforms. On-train announcements exhorted passengers not to use the crossing before the train from which they had just alighted had departed (to allow clear views in both directions). I would have thought it should have been possible to have engineered a remote locking system for a fraction of the cost of the bridge, avoiding the huge increase in crossing distance and time, and without the eyesore into the bargain.

 

[Deepgreen]

You'd be surprised at how strong peoples' instinct is to get around obstacles when they're set on catching that train. Far better to remove the risk altogether, and these days you have to also provide disabled access when doing so (hence the ramps, as lifts are even more expensive). Safety and disabled access probably trump the ANOB requirements.

However, the risk has not been removed altogether - it would be easy simply to run across the line, even though the boards have been removed and anti-trespass boards have been installed on the ramps if desperate to catch the train, precisely because the access time has now increased so dramatically.

 

[Phil.]

However, the risk has not been removed altogether - it would be easy simply to run across the line, even though the boards have been removed and anti-trespass boards have been installed on the ramps if desperate to catch the train, precisely because the access time has now increased so dramatically.

Precisely. This is a fine example of someone - actually a group in a meeting - with an obsession and little imagination.

 

[NSEFAN]

However, the risk has not been removed altogether - it would be easy simply to run across the line, even though the boards have been removed and anti-trespass boards have been installed on the ramps if desperate to catch the train, precisely because the access time has now increased so dramatically.

It is harder to run across the line where there is no crossing. Given the choice between stairs and jumping down onto the line and back up onto the plaform, I would expect most people to choose the latter, even when running to catch a train. In the scenario of running for the train, the access time of stairs vs a locked gate is still better.

 

[infobleep]

I was referring to journeys between the West and the South, not the North.

Fair enough. One a wider level I'd prefer to go via Reading but tickets are more expensive so I use central London. Less chance of that being an issue heading west through as same company runs the trains.

 

[Deepgreen]

It is harder to run across the line where there is no crossing. Given the choice between stairs and jumping down onto the line and back up onto the plaform, I would expect most people to choose the latter, even when running to catch a train. In the scenario of running for the train, the access time of stairs vs a locked gate is still better.

Agreed, but for a youngster desperate to catch the two hourly train, it's not very hard. The ramps mean (despite the anti-trespass boards) that no jumping is involved. If you look at the picture you'll see the effort involved is pretty small if desperate.

 

[Barn]

DfT have confirmed to me that the May 2017 requirement hasn't been varied. Make from that what you will...