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5 car IET's from Truro to London. 7/12

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Requeststop

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Welcome to the joys of GWR in Cornwall. The 9 car IET's only properly fit into one Cornish station - Penzance. At the remaining stations passengers have to move along the train to exit or even to board. The HST's used to fit nicely in Truro, but now they are used as a 4 coach service between Penzance and Plymouth, Bristol and Cardiff. They are more comfortable, quieter and a much better ride than the awful replacements, foisted on the paying public.

Extending the platforms to get the monsters to fit is an impossibility, unfortunately.
 
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HamworthyGoods

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They are more comfortable, quieter and a much better ride than the awful replacements, foisted on the paying public.

They were also life expired with serious corrosion - quite a large number of vehicles were rejected at conversion to castle sets due to this.
 

Master29

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It may be instructive to know how this kind of thing has to be proved.

When you look at a stretch of line and the service position on it, you have to use the industry revenue and loads prediction system (MOIRA) to do it. The DfT won’t accept anything else. So you plug in your projected service and get the answers. Then you take your existing loads (and the GWR database is really good - for the whole year), do a comparison and adjust as necessary, as MOIRA works on whole industry demand spread averages, not location specific. So, for example, your daily peak at a certain location may be slightly different to actual so you manually adjust how your increased demand will be spread through the day.

In the case of the 802 fleet, going load 9 or 10 into Cornwall in the DA2 award period would have meant two things - you needed the equivalent of 5 extra 5 cars in diagram (6 in the fleet) and you killed the case for the Cornish half hourly in the process. There just wasn’t the loadings to justify both, even with the most optimistic future demand forecasts. And if you can’t prove the loadings, you can’t get the stock authorised.

7 cars was looked at because they would have fitted at Long Rock but they wouldn’t have coped with the demand from Plymouth inwards to London so you needed load 9 or 10 on that stretch. But you just couldn’t justify them all the way through to Penzance all the time so instead of ordering 22 x 5 cars, you would have needed 14 x 9. So that was 16 cars more (with stabling issues at the country end) and no Cornish half hourly. You can see why the decision to go 5 car was made.

But, in the medium to long term, you could see a case for longer trains into Cornwall developing and so it was felt to be best to go with the Cornish half hourly now and extend the 802 fleet later. There was also a real fear that if you didn’t get the Cornish half hourly in then, it might never happen and that was something that, in hindsight, GWR and Cornwall got absolutely right.

Most of the time a 5 car is perfectly adequate for Plymouth to Penzance but the operational headache of splitting and joining (which the WR hates) is something that is best avoided if you can. The provision of extra siding space at the Penzance end helps this so you don’t have to split and join most of the starters and finishers (because the space at land locked Long Rock wasn’t there for 9 cars) and the fall off in long distance commuting on the GWML from Parkway and Temple Meads inwards to Paddington has released enough units to allow for constant long train working into Cornwall, a bit earlier than GWR had previously planned for.

Unfortunately, playing fantasy units is out. The DfT have made it plain they do not see GWR getting any more 800 series cars at the moment and, contractually, they want to stick to the current fleets being where they are. I suspect that extending the 5 cars might come into play in the next few years but as part of a wider DfT fleet reorganisation that would involve Cross Country.

Sometimes you have to play a less than ideal game to get a result but, getting back to the original question posed here, if GWR didn’t have 5 cars, Bertie the bus might have had to be used for a longer journey than it had to or alternatively everyone would been crammed into a DMU.
Thank you for your usual excellent reply. Showing how it works at least gives reason as to why they went ahead with the order the way they did.
 

richw

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They are more comfortable, quieter and a much better ride than the awful replacements
They really aren’t, other than maybe quieter on diesel.
As usual we have rose tinted enthusiast glasses speaking, the IETs are vastly superior in many ways. They’re smoother, they keep to time, and when they reach the electric at Newbury they are much quieter. HSTs were jerky under acceleration, and slower to accelerate.

The general public non enthusiast traveller will choose an IET every time
 

MotCO

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It may be instructive to know how this kind of thing has to be proved.

When you look at a stretch of line and the service position on it, you have to use the industry revenue and loads prediction system (MOIRA) to do it. The DfT won’t accept anything else. So you plug in your projected service and get the answers. Then you take your existing loads (and the GWR database is really good - for the whole year), do a comparison and adjust as necessary, as MOIRA works on whole industry demand spread averages, not location specific. So, for example, your daily peak at a certain location may be slightly different to actual so you manually adjust how your increased demand will be spread through the day.

In the case of the 802 fleet, going load 9 or 10 into Cornwall in the DA2 award period would have meant two things - you needed the equivalent of 5 extra 5 cars in diagram (6 in the fleet) and you killed the case for the Cornish half hourly in the process. There just wasn’t the loadings to justify both, even with the most optimistic future demand forecasts. And if you can’t prove the loadings, you can’t get the stock authorised.

7 cars was looked at because they would have fitted at Long Rock but they wouldn’t have coped with the demand from Plymouth inwards to London so you needed load 9 or 10 on that stretch. But you just couldn’t justify them all the way through to Penzance all the time so instead of ordering 22 x 5 cars, you would have needed 14 x 9. So that was 16 cars more (with stabling issues at the country end) and no Cornish half hourly. You can see why the decision to go 5 car was made.

But, in the medium to long term, you could see a case for longer trains into Cornwall developing and so it was felt to be best to go with the Cornish half hourly now and extend the 802 fleet later. There was also a real fear that if you didn’t get the Cornish half hourly in then, it might never happen and that was something that, in hindsight, GWR and Cornwall got absolutely right.

Most of the time a 5 car is perfectly adequate for Plymouth to Penzance but the operational headache of splitting and joining (which the WR hates) is something that is best avoided if you can. The provision of extra siding space at the Penzance end helps this so you don’t have to split and join most of the starters and finishers (because the space at land locked Long Rock wasn’t there for 9 cars) and the fall off in long distance commuting on the GWML from Parkway and Temple Meads inwards to Paddington has released enough units to allow for constant long train working into Cornwall, a bit earlier than GWR had previously planned for.

Unfortunately, playing fantasy units is out. The DfT have made it plain they do not see GWR getting any more 800 series cars at the moment and, contractually, they want to stick to the current fleets being where they are. I suspect that extending the 5 cars might come into play in the next few years but as part of a wider DfT fleet reorganisation that would involve Cross Country.

Sometimes you have to play a less than ideal game to get a result but, getting back to the original question posed here, if GWR didn’t have 5 cars, Bertie the bus might have had to be used for a longer journey than it had to or alternatively everyone would been crammed into a DMU.
Thanks for providing such a good insight into how the purchasing plans are formulated.
 

robert thomas

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They really aren’t, other than maybe quieter on diesel.
As usual we have rose tinted enthusiast glasses speaking, the IETs are vastly superior in many ways. They’re smoother, they keep to time, and when they reach the electric at Newbury they are much quieter. HSTs were jerky under acceleration, and slower to accelerate.

The general public non enthusiast traveller will choose an IET every time
I wouldn't be so sure. I was travelling in first class this week and an elderley joining the train refused to believe that they were in first class despite me assuring them that it was and the man wandered off down the train to check before returning somewhat crestfallen at the change from HST comfort.
 

Goldfish62

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They really aren’t, other than maybe quieter on diesel.
As usual we have rose tinted enthusiast glasses speaking, the IETs are vastly superior in many ways. They’re smoother, they keep to time, and when they reach the electric at Newbury they are much quieter. HSTs were jerky under acceleration, and slower to accelerate.

The general public non enthusiast traveller will choose an IET every time
One thing they're definitely not is smoother! The poor ride quality is a known issue, and diabolical for a long-distance train, but sadly there's no impetus to try to improve it.

I'm not looking through rose-tinted spectacles either.
 

GoneSouth

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They really aren’t, other than maybe quieter on diesel.
As usual we have rose tinted enthusiast glasses speaking, the IETs are vastly superior in many ways. They’re smoother, they keep to time, and when they reach the electric at Newbury they are much quieter. HSTs were jerky under acceleration, and slower to accelerate.

The general public non enthusiast traveller will choose an IET every time
No, they would choose the more comfortable seat that they have to use for up to 5 hours, I certainly would. To be honest I don’t care what type of train it’s in I just don’t want back ache for 5 hours. And I would choose…

The seat from the cross country HST and bung it in an 800. I choose to travel in the HSTs down to the westcountry even now because they are more comfortable.

To dismiss someone else’s valid opinion as rose tinted is a bit unfair, everyone is allowed a view with their own criteria. I suppose you think mine is a stupid old fashioned opinion too, but it’s mine and it’s valid
 

irish_rail

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No, they would choose the more comfortable seat that they have to use for up to 5 hours, I certainly would. To be honest I don’t care what type of train it’s in I just don’t want back ache for 5 hours. And I would choose…

The seat from the cross country HST and bung it in an 800. I choose to travel in the HSTs down to the westcountry even now because they are more comfortable.

To dismiss someone else’s valid opinion as rose tinted is a bit unfair, everyone is allowed a view with their own criteria. I suppose you think mine is a stupid old fashioned opinion too, but it’s mine and it’s valid
I think most "normals" would agree that the IET is the better train IF and its a big IF it had better standard class seats. They are not suitable for 5 hour trips in the opinion of many.
 

david1212

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I think most "normals" would agree that the IET is the better train IF and its a big IF it had better standard class seats. They are not suitable for 5 hour trips in the opinion of many.

IMO the seats in the GWR 80x IET's are borderline for a journey of an hour never mind five. A decent seat would at least partly mask the ride / suspension quality too.
If I was in London presuming a full timetable with no disruption I would choose SWR to Exeter then, while they remain, a Castle onwards.

.... Most of the time a 5 car is perfectly adequate for Plymouth to Penzance but the operational headache of splitting and joining (which the WR hates) is something that is best avoided if you can. ....

I understand when splitting that unless the split set that remains in the platform will have another join on the rear at the same platform then soon depart a second driver is required to move it then bring it back to a platform later plus paths required. However unlike Southern both sets do not go to and return from different destinations so the issue of one set being delayed does not occur.
Hence for the saving in mileage overall I would have thought a gain.

So why do GWR hate splitting so much? How long does it take to join / split two 80x sets? Are there reliability issues?
Depending on the passenger numbers could the splits be at Exeter or Newton Abbott saving even more mileage?
 

irish_rail

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IMO the seats in the GWR 80x IET's are borderline for a journey of an hour never mind five. A decent seat would at least partly mask the ride / suspension quality too.
If I was in London presuming a full timetable with no disruption I would choose SWR to Exeter then, while they remain, a Castle onwards.



I understand when splitting that unless the split set that remains in the platform will have another join on the rear at the same platform then soon depart a second driver is required to move it then bring it back to a platform later plus paths required. However unlike Southern both sets do not go to and return from different destinations so the issue of one set being delayed does not occur.
Hence for the saving in mileage overall I would have thought a gain.

So why do GWR hate splitting so much? How long does it take to join / split two 80x sets? Are there reliability issues?
Depending on the passenger numbers could the splits be at Exeter or Newton Abbott saving even more mileage?
You are quite correct. Splitting and joining at Plymouth is very staff hungry and has led to an explosion off additional staff including as you point out drivers for all the extra shunting (not to mention additional complexity shunting on depot at night as well. Id be interested to know just how many extra staff GWR had to employ for the additional (now discredited) plan where everything split and joined at Plymouth.
As CY has pointed out this was all done to justify the Cornish half hourly , which whilst admirable, has been overtaken by events and is now no longer so relevant. Too be fair GWR are provably grateful for the additional drivers employed at the likes of Plymouth which have been useful for delivering the timetable quite a bit lately.
 

Goldfish62

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With the completion of the engineering works 9/10 car operation has resumed. Source: Real Time Trains.
 

Master29

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With the completion of the engineering works 9/10 car operation has resumed. Source: Real Time Trains.
That's as it should have been but as Clarence Yard points out there are parameters in which the railways operate. I can't say I fully agree with the way things operate and don't pretend to understand but he did give a very good insight into those logistics.
 
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