6.30 Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross

[David Turner]

I’ve been a long distance commuter on the 6.30 Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross for some years.

It really is ‘long distance’ as I live in Adelaide, South Australia and have been a member of the Railway Performance Society for years. My hobby is timing, but of course being 12000 miles from the nearest station its not possible to keep the hobby going.

So decided to follow just one train each day on Realtimetrains.co.uk, its the 6.30 Bradford to London, running non stop from Wakefield to London. It has to pass a Hull to London service at Retford, a Sunderland to London service at Peterborough and then run just behind a Cambridge Thameslink service over Welwyn viaduct. The express is often held at Woolmer Green to let the late running Thameslink service get ahead. A very well respected timing person explained to me the Thameslink is given, I think, a Category Nine priority over the Bradford train.

However a new anomaly has crept in since signalling from Kings Cross was transferred to York. The Bradford train should precede the Sunderland train from Peterborough, but many times its signal checked before Peterborough, the Sunderland train runs ahead and arrives in London early and the Bradford train runs late.

Is there something wrong with the regulation at Peterborough or have the rules been changed?

This has happened again today and the Bradford train is running five minutes late and the Sunderland service seven minutes early. I feel sorry for the drivers of the Bradford service, it must be so frustrating.

David Turner, Adelaide, South Australia.

 

[30907]

In this case it looks from RTT as though P1 was unavailable (or rather P2, with TL using 1) so the Sunderland had to stop on the Up Fast, so the delay was unavoidable on this occasion.

Edit: if RTT is to be believed, P2 was blocked by a TL whose departure south was cancelled.

(Later posters have suggested the ARS was at fault, but surely that would default to the booked platform if available.)

 

[55018ballymoss]

I think the problem stems from the recontrol to York ROC and reliance on ARS (or is it SARS?). It has been one of the problems since the recontrol to York that the automated route setting (ARS or SARS) is relied upon rather than the signaller taking control, and the automated route setting relies on data which is not always accurate. There have been a number of issues raised since the recontrol of Peterborough where the automated route setting has made a number of decisions that signallers would not have, and this appears to be another of the growing list. It is a shame that these have not been identified before the system went live as the automated route setting is impacting on time performance on the ECML.
(I know this as working at Doncaster PSB we are impacted by some of the automated system's decisions)

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I think the problem stems from the recontrol to York ROC and reliance on ARS (or is it SARS?). It has been one of the problems since the recontrol to York that the automated route setting (ARS or SARS) is relied upon rather than the signaller taking control, and the automated route setting relies on data which is not always accurate. There have been a number of issues raised since the recontrol of Peterborough where the automated route setting has made a number of decisions that signallers would not have, and this appears to be another of the growing list. It is a shame that these have not been identified before the system went live as the automated route setting is impacting on time performance on the ECML.
(I know this as working at Doncaster PSB we are impacted by some of the automated system's decisions)

A signaller once said to me that (vanilla) ARS is like working with the most incompetent trainee imaginable, as it will fall into all the obvious bear traps and struggles to see the bigger picture. ARS combined with an integrated traffic management system on the other hand, is much more effective. It would be interesting to know if ECML has any plans to integrate LNER/GTR/Open Access stock & crew diagrams into the regulation decision-making process, as well as projected train running data. I imagine the flighting of Up trains between Woolmer Green and Welwyn Garden City is the critical element of ECML and Thameslink core performance, so poor decisions at Peterborough could start to have an effect further south if not properly managed.

 

[Condor7]

As an aside, are you aware this is a named train? It’s ‘The West Riding Limited’.

 

[David Turner]

Main reason I chose this train to “follow “ is that its the fastest service from Leeds to London, the only one that runs non stop from Wakefield to London. There isn’t a return equivalent. So it really should be the premier service of the day and even more importantly it should be treated as such. Having a name just doubles up on that.

Interesting to read the other comments.

David Turner Adelaide, South Australia.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Main reason I chose this train to “follow “ is that its the fastest service from Leeds to London, the only one that runs non stop from Wakefield to London. There isn’t a return equivalent. So it really should be the premier service of the day and even more importantly it should be treated as such. Having a name just doubles up on that.

Interesting to read the other comments.

David Turner Adelaide, South Australia

In the UK, service regulation is normally based on minimising overall delay rather than prioritising headline trains. My aforementioned point about the Thameslink Core section is a good example of why - disrupting the suburban network feeding into that can inconvenience many many more passengers than the 600-odd on one express heading for Kings Cross.

This isn’t a new thing or even peculiar to the route - I recall reading the official report for the 1952 Harrow & Wealdstone accident and it states that the morning commuter flows from Bletchley/Tring/Hemel Hempstead were given priority over the overnight expresses from Scotland, due to the importance of the commuter market flows from the Home Counties into Euston and Broad Street terminals. Hence why the local train was put into Harrow Up Fast platform directly in front of the Perth-London express, which sadly failed see the signals in the foggy conditions and caused the (first) collision.

 

[whale]

Some thoughts, and good news on today’s performance. Very interesting to see this come up, like many others, I quite enjoy watching how 1A07 gets on (and to an extent 1A25 of a Sunday, as this is non stop from Retford), with the two places these usually fall over being Peterborough or Woolmer Green - Welwyn (or both!).

Immediately after the Peterborough recontrol, many LNER services through their area were getting their punctuality wrecked by poor decisions, most likely instigated by poor software. Happily, things are much better almost a year on, with route setting looking up to five or six berths ahead to ensure passing trains stand a good chance at a clear run through. It is unfortunate that the West Riding doesn’t get utmost priority, but the east coast is a bloody busy route south of Doncaster, and increasing as you get closer to London - plus the layout at Peterborough is a little bit slow and tedious for diverging routes, making fitting everything through a little bit tricky if things are even a couple of minutes delayed. I’ve had a very mixed bag with 1A07, being onboard around once every two weeks and keeping a crude log of how well it’s done (through screenshots or more recently my phone’s stopwatch for our Wakefield to London timing).

The main issues in this current timetable, especially of a Saturday, are 1Y08 (never usually a problem itself but can be if 1A06/1A91 are a bit behind with their calls at NNG and GRA respectively), any GTR services wanting access to platforms 1/2 from the south, and then the 9Sxx Thameslink that swings in front at Woolmer Green. Now if we’re on time, and the Thameslink’s on time, we only receive cautionary aspects as it slows down for the (again poor / slow layout) crossover to the up slow for its call at Finsbury Park. All being well, we don’t have a perfect run but end up on time, the best we can hope for.

There are some occasions, such as today, where the ‘Woolmer Thameslink’ as we shall refer to it, ends up late off Cambridge / Letchworth, and if we on 1A07 have had a perfect run since Wakefield, can be up to 3 minutes early by the time we’re coming at Hitchin and Stevenage. Today was much this situation, our friend the Thameslink was 3ish minutes late, while we were 3.5 early, and lo and behold they still gave the route to the Thameslink, despite us having the potential to be well clear (given we passed through Stevenage at full whack whilst it had only just released its doors on the up slow). Weirdly, this didn’t appear to be an auto route setting job, as 9S13 had the road set from the up slow and through Woolmer Green all the way from Hitchin. Naturally, it seems a bonkers decision to bring us to a stand for this, but not something unheard of for Woolmer Green unfortunately.

Or at least, that’s what normally happens. Today by some miracle we achieved a time of 1h 38 and 52 seconds from departing Wakefield to stopping at Kings Cross platform zero, by far the fastest I’ve ever seen (let alone been on). This was achieved as the route had been put back on 9S13 right as we rounded the curve at Langley Jn (never seen that happen before!), and so though we did receive just the one cautionary aspect until the route cleared and signals stepped up, 1A07 today got ahead. Other than the minor brake application in lieu of the route being replaced a little too slowly at Woolmer, our time today would be seriously hard to beat, as we had a completely perfect run from Wakefield to London. Take a look at the schedule from today, and the attached screenshots of just how far back the route was set against us.

Realtime Trains | 1A07 0630 Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross | 08/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1A07 0630 departure from Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross on 08/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Love things like this, and good to see it go well today.

 

[takethegame]

There are definitely issues at Peterborough with poor choices made by the signal operators or the automated system as I have observed on many occasions. My other 'hobby-horse' are the still erratic timings for the Peterborough to Lincoln EMR trains and how a clockface timetable is needed. A clockface timetable for these trains would fit much better at Peterborough with the other services and help reduce these issues. These ex-Spalding services at various times use platform 1, platform 2 and platform 7. A set time and set platform would be most useful. Always using platform 7 (and the diveunder) would remove conflicts with freight and Liverpool-Norwich services on the Up Slow/Bi-Di. Alternatively, some remodelling just north of Peterborough to allow Up Slow/BiDi services to use platform 2 at Peterborough without having to use the Up Fast would also remove conflicts.

Overall, someone/something with common sense needs to be able to make proactive changes where needed to anticipate and deal with issues before they happen.

 

[Failed Unit]

There are definitely issues at Peterborough with poor choices made by the signal operators or the automated system as I have observed on many occasions. My other 'hobby-horse' are the still erratic timings for the Peterborough to Lincoln EMR trains and how a clockface timetable is needed. A clockface timetable for these trains would fit much better at Peterborough with the other services and help reduce these issues. These ex-Spalding services at various times use platform 1, platform 2 and platform 7. A set time and set platform would be most useful. Always using platform 7 (and the diveunder) would remove conflicts with freight and Liverpool-Norwich services on the Up Slow/Bi-Di. Alternatively, some remodelling just north of Peterborough to allow Up Slow/BiDi services to use platform 2 at Peterborough without having to use the Up Fast would also remove conflicts.

Overall, someone/something with common sense needs to be able to make proactive changes where needed to anticipate and deal with issues before they happen.

Just interested from your experience why isn’t this clockface already? I thought it was fitting in with freight trains. But apart from the Skegness line there are not many other conflict points.

The Welwyn area is a pain in the rear. 1-2 minutes delays are not uncommon but the impact soon snowballs once you get towards Finsbury Park.

 

[takethegame]

Just interested from your experience why isn’t this clockface already? I thought it was fitting in with freight trains. But apart from the Skegness line there are not many other conflict points.

The Welwyn area is a pain in the rear. 1-2 minutes delays are not uncommon but the impact soon snowballs once you get towards Finsbury Park.

The trains on the ECML (certainly LNER) runs to a clockface so you'd imagine the freight trains joining/leaving need to fit in with that, but not sure exactly what EMR is doing with its erratic service - see M-F northbound example below


Starts off OK (0632, 0731), slips a bit (0837), misses an hour (1030), then misses another hour (1226), gets a bit earlier in the subsequent hours (1321, 1416, 1511), slips back towards the bottom of the hour (1626), then earlier again (1710), then later (1818, 1926) and then who knows (2104, 2311)

Welwyn of course another issue, I've experienced first hand on several occasions grinding to a halt and waiting at Woolmer Green for several minutes to be undertaken by a late running GNTL service on the Up Slow with added insult to injury of it then stopping at Welwyn North causing further delay.

Clearly another Welwyn Viaduct and rebuilding Peterborough (again) could fix these issues but it 'ain't gonna happen'. An additional crossover and common sense at Peterborough, a faster turnout to the Up Slow before Huntingdon and more common sense at Woolmer Green could made a big difference.

Greetings to David in SA btw

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

One thing about freight timings - even for similar trains the timings may vary depending on the maximum weight of the consist. Very often there are multiple versions of the same freight in the same slot - Y paths - and therefore the overall pathing takes account of the worst case. This sort of thing can cause variations from hour to hour. Different traction (56, 60, 66, 70 etc) all have slightly different timings so a ‘Class 6 freight’ can be one of innumerable different sectional timings from hour to hour. No such thing as a standard path!

 

[43074]

Or at least, that’s what normally happens. Today by some miracle we achieved a time of 1h 38 and 52 seconds from departing Wakefield to stopping at Kings Cross platform zero, by far the fastest I’ve ever seen

1 hour 52 from Leeds to Kings Cross is very impressive - does anyone know what the record is?

 

[Ian Umpleby]

Some thoughts, and good news on today’s performance. Very interesting to see this come up, like many others, I quite enjoy watching how 1A07 gets on (and to an extent 1A25 of a Sunday, as this is non stop from Retford), with the two places these usually fall over being Peterborough or Woolmer Green - Welwyn (or both!).

Immediately after the Peterborough recontrol, many LNER services through their area were getting their punctuality wrecked by poor decisions, most likely instigated by poor software. Happily, things are much better almost a year on, with route setting looking up to five or six berths ahead to ensure passing trains stand a good chance at a clear run through. It is unfortunate that the West Riding doesn’t get utmost priority, but the east coast is a bloody busy route south of Doncaster, and increasing as you get closer to London - plus the layout at Peterborough is a little bit slow and tedious for diverging routes, making fitting everything through a little bit tricky if things are even a couple of minutes delayed. I’ve had a very mixed bag with 1A07, being onboard around once every two weeks and keeping a crude log of how well it’s done (through screenshots or more recently my phone’s stopwatch for our Wakefield to London timing).

The main issues in this current timetable, especially of a Saturday, are 1Y08 (never usually a problem itself but can be if 1A06/1A91 are a bit behind with their calls at NNG and GRA respectively), any GTR services wanting access to platforms 1/2 from the south, and then the 9Sxx Thameslink that swings in front at Woolmer Green. Now if we’re on time, and the Thameslink’s on time, we only receive cautionary aspects as it slows down for the (again poor / slow layout) crossover to the up slow for its call at Finsbury Park. All being well, we don’t have a perfect run but end up on time, the best we can hope for.

There are some occasions, such as today, where the ‘Woolmer Thameslink’ as we shall refer to it, ends up late off Cambridge / Letchworth, and if we on 1A07 have had a perfect run since Wakefield, can be up to 3 minutes early by the time we’re coming at Hitchin and Stevenage. Today was much this situation, our friend the Thameslink was 3ish minutes late, while we were 3.5 early, and lo and behold they still gave the route to the Thameslink, despite us having the potential to be well clear (given we passed through Stevenage at full whack whilst it had only just released its doors on the up slow). Weirdly, this didn’t appear to be an auto route setting job, as 9S13 had the road set from the up slow and through Woolmer Green all the way from Hitchin. Naturally, it seems a bonkers decision to bring us to a stand for this, but not something unheard of for Woolmer Green unfortunately.

Or at least, that’s what normally happens. Today by some miracle we achieved a time of 1h 38 and 52 seconds from departing Wakefield to stopping at Kings Cross platform zero, by far the fastest I’ve ever seen (let alone been on). This was achieved as the route had been put back on 9S13 right as we rounded the curve at Langley Jn (never seen that happen before!), and so though we did receive just the one cautionary aspect until the route cleared and signals stepped up, 1A07 today got ahead. Other than the minor brake application in lieu of the route being replaced a little too slowly at Woolmer, our time today would be seriously hard to beat, as we had a completely perfect run from Wakefield to London. Take a look at the schedule from today, and the attached screenshots of just how far back the route was set against us.

Realtime Trains | 1A07 0630 Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross | 08/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1A07 0630 departure from Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross on 08/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Love things like this, and good to see it go well today.

The fastest time from Wakefield to Kings Cross in the Railway Performance Society Archive was by 91008 on 13/2/1995 in 100m 30 sec.

However, to show what could also be done, a run of mine 3 weeks ago on a Saturday from Wakefield took 103m 32 secs or 99 mins net following signals at Dock Hills Doncaster (19 mph), Woolmer Green (25 mph) and Hornsey (31 mph) with Azumas 801101/8. So Whale your run was very close to the best possible legitimately. The 103½ gross WTT schedule includes an implausible 7½ min recovery time = 96 mins!

 

[David Turner]

Thanks for all your comments, little did I know that so much interest is shown in one service. I followed the ‘’record run” yesterday and your comments Mr Whale and Ian were very interesting. I have contacted the Railway Performance Society previously to report what, at the time, looked to be a record time. It completed the run in 97 and a half minutes, I wasn’t on the train of course, so couldn’t claim the record. That was back in August 2022. Just proves how long I have been following its progress. Its always interesting to see how it often runs into trouble. Even the section from Leeds to Doncaster can be a problem when a late running Leeds to Sheffield stopping service leaves Leeds late before the Bradford to London and then has to run on the same (double track only) to South Kirkby Junction before diverting to Sheffield.

So, all in all. Interesting for me, but as I said at the very beginning, very frustrating for the driver.

I certainly won’t be taking over the signalling of the ECML from 12000 miles away, here in Adelaide, South Australia.

 

[Steve Harris]

I think the problem stems from the recontrol to York ROC and reliance on ARS (or is it SARS?). It has been one of the problems since the recontrol to York that the automated route setting (ARS or SARS) is relied upon rather than the signaller taking control, and the automated route setting relies on data which is not always accurate. There have been a number of issues raised since the recontrol of Peterborough where the automated route setting has made a number of decisions that signallers would not have, and this appears to be another of the growing list. It is a shame that these have not been identified before the system went live as the automated route setting is impacting on time performance on the ECML.
(I know this as working at Doncaster PSB we are impacted by some of the automated system's decisions)

It's actually DRS, which is a form of ARS. But broadly speaking the rest of what you say is correct.

This has already been discussed here.

 

[185143]

Out of interest, is there anything like RTT for down under?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Out of interest, is there anything like RTT for down under?

Not as detailed, but there is an app that will tell you live departures, journey status, and the train type (Waratah/Tangara/Millennium/K Set/V Set/Oscar, etc)

 

[Shepley]

This is without a doubt the flagship service from Leeds to Kings Cross. I caught it many times from 1989 to Covid. First class was always nearly full (maybe not on a Friday) and I imagine standard was too. If I recall correctly it was the last service to offer a full silver service breakfast in first - and very good it was too on a cold Monday in winter.

An on time arrival at Kings Cross would see me in London office comfortably before 9.30. Colleagues would occasionally ask if I had come down the night before.

Since semi and now full retirement I don’t miss it a bit!

 

[Starmill]

The situation with the 0753 Cambridge to Brighton service is quite awkward. After Stevenage, it only has an allowance of the solitary mandatory minute for the two-track section, then nothing can be recovered until Finsbury Park. One to three further minutes at most could be recoverable from there to London St Pancras Low Level.

If it doesn't reach Canal Tunnel Junction in time for its slot into platform A at London St Pancras, it's followed through there on 3 minutes headway by the 0817 Luton to Rainham, which in turn is 3 minutes ahead of the 0802 Bedford to Three Bridges, and 3 minutes again for the 0832 Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks coming up behind the service from Cambridge. As such, right time presentation at Canal Tunnel really is crucial to those other trains, and its own onward journey after London Bridge.

Today the service departed from Stevenage 10 minutes late, and only recovered one minute by London St Pancras, which would be fairly typical. Today it got "lucky" in that the Bedford to Three Bridges service was cancelled, so that wasn't in its way to Norwood Junction, allowing some time to be clawed back by East Croydon. The 0925 London Bridge to Epsom didn't depart its origin on time either, so the risk of a clash there was avoided also.

Accordingly with all of the above, to give this the best chance of all working as it should, you'd expect it to be a high priority to try to give these services right time departures from Leeds and Cambridge respectively.