8 Car SDO On the East London Line

[baffobear]

Hello all. Quick question.

Popping in to the east London line a few days ago I came across an 8 car marker at a few stations on the east London line.

Which 8 car stock is cleared
(With SDO) on the east London line?

 

[Kite159]

Looks like the word 'Door' is under the 8 which suggests it's not for 8 carriages but to release the front 8 sets of doors.

I'm not sure if the 378s have automatic selected door release, but it could be a reminder to the driver if that system isn't working correctly

 

[zwk500]

Looks like the word 'Door' is under the 8 which suggests it's not for 8 carriages but to release the front 8 sets of doors.

I'm not sure if the 378s have automatic selected door release, but it could be a reminder to the driver if that system isn't working correctly

This sounds likely, especially as it has 'SDO' at the top.

 

[baffobear]

Thanks both. Really appreciate the swift and detailed reply

 

[Taunton]

I had understood that there was a bit of sucking of breath by the ORR over even going from 4 to 5 car; both Wapping and Rotherhithe require the last car's doors to be cut out, and are really physically incapable of being extended. Rotherhithe was even looked at for closure, on the basis that Canada Water is not much further along the line, but Wapping, which also has the narrowest platforms, especially southbound, is really incapable of any further works, and key to its neighbourhood.

 

[swt_passenger]

I had understood that there was a bit of sucking of breath by the ORR over even going from 4 to 5 car; both Wapping and Rotherhithe require the last car's doors to be cut out, and are really physically incapable of being extended. Rotherhithe was even looked at for closure, on the basis that Canada Water is not much further along the line, but Wapping, which also has the narrowest platforms, especially southbound, is really incapable of any further works, and key to its neighbourhood.

Isn’t it considered rather difficult to alter Canada Water as well?

 

[Snow1964]

Isn’t it considered rather difficult to alter Canada Water as well?

It is more a case of excessive cost and disruption

Very difficult extensions can be done, like Blackfriars was many years ago, by boring holes, inserting columns, then capping them, around the existing tunnel, then demolishing old brick tunnel, but not quick or easy

 

[Taunton]

Aware of past changes, but the particular characteristics of Wapping, which simplistically is built at the bottom of a deep, large circular ventilation/access shaft, with the platforms coming up against the end walls of the shaft, would make that an extreme challenge. It would probably be easier to build a diversion.

The notable case is the District Line, south side of the Circle, where each station was expanded in the 1950s-60s to allow extension of trains from 6 to 8 car, though not the Edgware Road branch. The points where this was done at the various stations are quite visible. The recent S-stock change to only have shorter 7 car trains seems like a considerable waste of this effort.

 

[Starmill]

It's certainly something which I thought was interesting that 378s got SDO which can select specific doors rather than only specifc coaches. Of course, that's commonplace on various London Underground stock too which is likely to be behind why it was specified as such. As part of the safety case I think 345s had to have it to enable the middle door to be disabled at London Paddington on the more curved platform. Can 710s also do it?

 

[mmh]

It's certainly something which I thought was interesting that 378s got SDO which can select specific doors rather than only specifc coaches. Of course, that's commonplace on various London Underground stock too which is likely to be behind why it was specified as such. As part of the safety case I think 345s had to have it to enable the middle door to be disabled at London Paddington on the more curved platform. Can 710s also do it?

Other Electrostars have SDO per-door not per-coach SDO too. Numerous 10 and 11 coach only platforms at Southern stations served by 12 coach 377s.

Per-coach SDO is rather outdated now!

 

[zwk500]

Other Electrostars have SDO per-door not per-coach SDO too. Numerous 10 and 11 coach only platforms at Southern stations served by 12 coach 377s.

My understanding is the Overground SDO disables the first and last door only, can the other Electrostars do so or is it just countback?

Per-coach SDO is rather outdated now!

Tell that the LNWR and it's per-unit SDO on the 350s!

 

[Wolfie]

Aware of past changes, but the particular characteristics of Wapping, which simplistically is built at the bottom of a deep, large circular ventilation/access shaft, with the platforms coming up against the end walls of the shaft, would make that an extreme challenge. It would probably be easier to build a diversion.

The notable case is the District Line, south side of the Circle, where each station was expanded in the 1950s-60s to allow extension of trains from 6 to 8 car, though not the Edgware Road branch. The points where this was done at the various stations are quite visible. The recent S-stock change to only have shorter 7 car trains seems like a considerable waste of this effort.

With respect to the District line station expansions you mention are you sure that you took account of both respective carriage lengths and also much less wasted space in the current stock?

The other issue with the East London Line is a number of structures, some dating back to Brunel, are listed.

 

[Taunton]

With respect to the District line station expansions you mention are you sure that you took account of both respective carriage lengths and also much less wasted space in the current stock?

The other issue with the East London Line is a number of structures, some dating back to Brunel, are listed.

I believe I have, although always open to comment. The north side of the Circle allows 8-car trains of the Metropolitan, the south side and rest of the mainstream District has I believe the same platform length but was only given 7-car trains. Bizarrely the west side, the Edgware Branch, only traditionally allowed 6-car trains but now has 7-car trains as well. Not relevant to the East London but it does seem inconsistent.

Regarding listed buildings, you can always get consent to vary them. There are some right hogsnortons around TfL where this was obtained.

 

[Wolfie]

I believe I have, although always open to comment. The north side of the Circle allows 8-car trains of the Metropolitan, the south side and rest of the mainstream District has I believe the same platform length but was only given 7-car trains. Bizarrely the west side, the Edgware Branch, only traditionally allowed 6-car trains but now has 7-car trains as well. Not relevant to the East London but it does seem inconsistent.

Regarding listed buildings, you can always get consent to vary them. There are some right hogsnortons around TfL where this was obtained.

Re your last para you may want to look back at the pallava around doing works on the actual Brunel tunnel itself. TfL's plans were blocked several times.

 

[Taunton]

I am well aware of the Brunel tunnel listing issues, and being local have watched the various lengthy closures and works over recent decades. It is also notable how considerably use of the line has built up, Wapping even more than Rotherhithe. Only last weekend went through and back, train under the river both ways full and heavily standing.

 

[mmh]

Regarding listed buildings, you can always get consent to vary them.

Well no, you can't always. Which is rather the point of things being listed.

 

[Kite159]

In my eyes the costs of extending the platforms at those former underground stations on the East London Line needs to be balanced against any potential benefits.

Sure there might be times when tourists get over carried as they don't know they need to be in the front 4 coaches and they can't get down the train due to it being busy, but that can be said for the other stations on the underground where sets of doors don't open. Passengers who use those stations daily will know not to be in the rear coach, similar for passengers for Manor Park knowing not to be in the rear coach of a 345 due to it having short platforms.

 

[Class 170101]

The notable case is the District Line, south side of the Circle, where each station was expanded in the 1950s-60s to allow extension of trains from 6 to 8 car, though not the Edgware Road branch. The points where this was done at the various stations are quite visible. The recent S-stock change to only have shorter 7 car trains seems like a considerable waste of this effort.

Remember though the platform extensions were done in the 1950s / 60s as you refer, so safety standards have changed since then. It would be perfectly acceptable for D78 Stock to stop and used the platforms when new but it wouldn't surprise me if there was insufficient depth to the platforms (between the back wall and track) and the S Stock wouldn't be allowed to use the extensions due to having to work to modern standards

 

[zwk500]

In my eyes the costs of extending the platforms at those former underground stations on the East London Line needs to be balanced against any potential benefits.

Sure there might be times when tourists get over carried as they don't know they need to be in the front 4 coaches and they can't get down the train due to it being busy, but that can be said for the other stations on the underground where sets of doors don't open. Passengers who use those stations daily will know not to be in the rear coach, similar for passengers for Manor Park knowing not to be in the rear coach of a 345 due to it having short platforms.

Which is exactly what has happened, hence the SDO. Although full-length platforms are still desirable if possible for reasons of dwell time, avoiding the need to move through the carriage, etc.

 

[Dstock7080]

The notable case is the District Line, south side of the Circle, where each station was expanded in the 1950s-60s to allow extension of trains from 6 to 8 car, though not the Edgware Road branch. The points where this was done at the various stations are quite visible. The recent S-stock change to only have shorter 7 car trains seems like a considerable waste of this effort.

Many of the south-side District stations could not accommodate full 8-car train doors, at most stations two-cars were either drawn up into the tunnel or left short, the Guard working in car 6.
7-car S Stock still have SDO at some stations, Temple and Gloucester Road being the tightest.

 

[Skoodle]

It's SDO sign, that's how many doors will be released on that platform.

Canada Water - 9 Up & Down
Rotherhithe - 8 Up & Down
Wapping - 9 Up / 8 Down

It's completely automatic with no input from the driver. The train reads a tag in the track (long thin yellow bar), which tells the train which side and how many doors to release. The 378s have Correct Side Door Enable so the tags are at every platform the 378s use.

 

[Mollman]

Aware of past changes, but the particular characteristics of Wapping, which simplistically is built at the bottom of a deep, large circular ventilation/access shaft, with the platforms coming up against the end walls of the shaft, would make that an extreme challenge. It would probably be easier to build a diversion.

The notable case is the District Line, south side of the Circle, where each station was expanded in the 1950s-60s to allow extension of trains from 6 to 8 car, though not the Edgware Road branch. The points where this was done at the various stations are quite visible. The recent S-stock change to only have shorter 7 car trains seems like a considerable waste of this effort.

Weren't D Stock only 7 cars? In the end TfL were trying to go from three fleets (8 car As, 6 car Cs and 7 car Ds) to one fleet. Whilst they had to have 8 cars for the Met, for fleet flexibility they went for 7 cars for everything else rather than having 6 for Circle / H&C and Edgware Road District and 7 for District mainline.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Weren't D Stock only 7 cars? In the end TfL were trying to go from three fleets (8 car As, 6 car Cs and 7 car Ds) to one fleet. Whilst they had to have 8 cars for the Met, for fleet flexibility they went for 7 cars for everything else rather than having 6 for Circle / H&C and Edgware Road District and 7 for District mainline.

D Stock was 6 cars, but each car was longer bodied.

 

[Mollman]

D Stock was 6 cars, but each car was longer bodied.

Thanks for the info, I'm only used to 2 car D stock now!