8 car trains stopping at 12 car platform position

[norbitonflyer]

At Kingston (and other stations such as Raynes Park) it is completely inconsistent. The 8-car stop board on platform 2 has been removed which means that all trains now stop at the former 10-car board, meaning that when an 8-car calls the rear of the train is two car-lengths from the entrance/exit to the platform, and only the rear two cars are under the canopy. I have seen people miss trains in the evening peak because they couldn't reach the train against the press of oncoming alighting passengers making for the exit along the narrow platform (and the habit of the dispatchers of giving the right-away before everyone has had a chance to board or, in extreme cases, alight!).
A side effect is that regular passengers choose the carriage nearest where the exit will be at their destination, in order to be ahead of the scrum at the ticket gates - particularly at Kingston, whose single barrier line was woefully inadequate for the (pre-Covid) numbers travelling. If they spot that their train to Kingston is an eight car, they travel in the rear carriage rather than the third from last, adding to the crowding that always occurs in the carriage nearest the barrier at Waterloo, due to last-minute boarders. As the same issue affects other stations, notably Raynes Park, it could get quite cosy in the rear car .
I have heard the excuse that with a mix of 8 and 10 car trains drivers might be confused and stop in the wrong place, but this was never seen as a problem when 10-car trains were a rarity, and in any case SWR still have guards, one of whose jobs is to check the train is correctly platformed. Moreover, confusion is unlikely because if the driver is in the cab of anything other than a 455 he must be driving a 10-car (707s and 458s are 5-car units, and 456s only run in 10-car (455/455/456) formations.
And it is inconsistent - when platform 3 was extended to take 10-car trains, a new 10-car stop board was provided. But the 8-car board is still there.

 

[talltim]

I’m now trying to remember what stop boards there are at Chesterfield. I’m pretty certain that there aren’t ones for every length of train*, yet on platform 1, the trains stop on the middle of the platform opposite the entrance and buildings.
*2,3,4,5,6,6+power cars,7,8,8+power cars,9,10,11 and that’s not including different length cars

 

[Need2]

Why shouldn't we expect train drivers to get it right every time, and expect there to be a punishment - even if just a "talking to" - if they don't?

Absolutely unbelievable!

 

[158747]

I accept that we're all human and mistakes or "brainfarts" happen occasionally, and yes of course it's better, if that does happen, that you don't open doors where there isn't a platform because you've stopped a 12 car train at an 8 car stop marker. However as someone said above, at the kind of wages we're talking about for a qualified driver, we should expect them to know the size if the train they're driving. We expect much lower paid lorry drivers to know the height of their vehicle and to take notice of clearance limit signs on bridges they go under, or weight limit signs on bridges they go over. Why shouldn't we expect train drivers to get it right every time, and expect there to be a punishment - even if just a "talking to" - if they don't?

Although train drivers are well paid for the responsible job they do they are not robots, they are human just like everyone else. And just like everyone else they make mistakes from time to time.

 

[choochoochoo]

Although train drivers are well paid for the responsible job they do they are not robots, they are human just like everyone else. And just like everyone else they make mistakes from time to time.

If they want drivers to stop making mistakes, maybe they should put 2 up front and they can keep an eye on each other ?

If I'm not mistaken, one pilot can fly a plane, and that's on autopilot 99% of the time, but they have 2 up front ? And they get paid very well too !!

 

[O L Leigh]

I've been driving trains since 2005, which is not a very long time compared to many colleagues, and I wouldn't like to even guess at how many station stops I've made or cautionary signals I've had to react to.

Of course we're expected to get it right every single time, and in the vast majority of cases we achieve exactly that. However, train driving is a boring, repetitive job not so very different to working on a production line, so it shouldn't be surprising that every now and then one of us drops the ball and makes a mistake. Hopefully when you do it's just a low-level issue like the one described here rather than a SPAD or colliding with the block. The problem is that there is no "undo" function in this job.

I don't know of a single driver who doesn't have some aspect of their cab routine to help mitigate against making a hash of the job. When I was trained for DOO the mantra was always "pause for the doors", and it's still something I do now on stock where the doors are under my control. I cover the door buttons on the left side if I know the next station has the platform on the right and I've even been known to jump down first to visually check that the back end is on before getting back in to release the doors. As in other industries, human factors has become a big focus in trying to understand the underlying causes of incidents and trying to prevent repetition. Whether we consciously acknowledge it or not, every driver uses aspects of human factors in managing themselves.

Does level of pay have anything to do with it? In some respects I think it does, but not in the sense that being paid so well should make us infallible. Train driving is, in my view, more of a profession than a job. It comes with high standards of performance and expectation, we are highly trained and incident-averse and, as such, we therefore command a professional's rate of pay. But we are no less immune to mistakes or being the victims of poor procedures and practices than pilots, surgeons or any other profession that you may wish to compare us to. No job, no profession, no industry is 100% free from error and the railways are no different.

 

[158747]

If they want drivers to stop making mistakes, maybe they should put 2 up front and they can keep an eye on each other ?

If I'm not mistaken, one pilot can fly a plane, and that's on autopilot 99% of the time, but they have 2 up front ? And they get paid very well too !!

And just like train drivers or any other job I can think of they also make mistakes occasionally.

 

[43066]

It’s funny how Drivers wages seemingly get brought up in literally every single conversation about Driver related matters. You could pay a Driver £1000000 a year, they still have the potential to make a mistake. It’s amusing that people honestly seem to think Drivers aren’t ‘dealt with’ after they’ve made mistakes, we are, and in most cases that mistake follows you for your whole career, particularly if you want to apply for another TOC.
Out of interest, why do *you* think Drivers make mistakes? Why do *you* think Drivers sometimes inadvertently stop in the wrong place on a platform? You don’t seem to have any idea of the standards we strive for and are expected to uphold day in day out.
As for your comment about HGV Drivers, I actually personally think that bridge bash incidents aren’t taken seriously enough, not in terms of punishment for the Driver but in terms of the haulage industry looking into ways of preventing them (be that training or technology). I can’t imagine any HGV Driver goes to work with the intention of making such a mistake, funnily enough, the same is true of Train Drivers.....

Absolutely unbelievable!

Blimey! You have to wonder what kind of punishment he has in mind for those of us who don’t always stop precisely on the mark

I've been driving trains since 2005, which is not a very long time compared to many colleagues, and I wouldn't like to even guess at how many station stops I've made or cautionary signals I've had to react to.

Of course we're expected to get it right every single time, and in the vast majority of cases we achieve exactly that. However, train driving is a boring, repetitive job not so very different to working on a production line, so it shouldn't be surprising that every now and then one of us drops the ball and makes a mistake. Hopefully when you do it's just a low-level issue like the one described here rather than a SPAD or colliding with the block. The problem is that there is no "undo" function in this job.

I don't know of a single driver who doesn't have some aspect of their cab routine to help mitigate against making a hash of the job. When I was trained for DOO the mantra was always "pause for the doors", and it's still something I do now on stock where the doors are under my control. I cover the door buttons on the left side if I know the next station has the platform on the right and I've even been known to jump down first to visually check that the back end is on before getting back in to release the doors. As in other industries, human factors has become a big focus in trying to understand the underlying causes of incidents and trying to prevent repetition. Whether we consciously acknowledge it or not, every driver uses aspects of human factors in managing themselves.

Does level of pay have anything to do with it? In some respects I think it does, but not in the sense that being paid so well should make us infallible. Train driving is, in my view, more of a profession than a job. It comes with high standards of performance and expectation, we are highly trained and incident-averse and, as such, we therefore command a professional's rate of pay. But we are no less immune to mistakes or being the victims of poor procedures and practices than pilots, surgeons or any other profession that you may wish to compare us to. No job, no profession, no industry is 100% free from error and the railways are no different.

Fully agreed. It’s interesting speaking to colleagues who’ve been in the job since BR days. The pay has gone up since then, but a great deal more is now expected, to the point where the job is extremely unforgiving. The pressure to perform is relentless, often while fatigued and at extreme times of the day and night. I can think of several drivers just off the top of my head who’ve been sacked or moved into non driving roles due to poor performance. The people who come unstuck are generally those who have been blinded by the £££, and are unable to cope with the realities of the job.

 

[Hadders]

I checked the situation at Stevenage earlier today, and there have been a number of changes over the last few years.

Historically, on the up platform there were 3 and 4 car stop boards in the same position and 6 and 8 car boards further down the platform. These were located in a suitable position so that the CD and RA displays were visible. These NSE branded stop boards are still in place although a few years ago the 4 car stop board was taped over and a new 4 car board installed further along the platform (between the old position and the 6/8 car board).

Later a 12 car stop board was added right at the very far end of the platform, 12 car trains having to be manually dispatched at Stevenage.

Next the 387s came along and a combined 4/8 car stop board for 387s was installed in the same location as the old 6/8 car board. The board is positioned on the boundary fence so is visible from the drivers position in the cab. There is also a notice reminding drivers to open the doors on the far side.

For the 700s there is an 'ALL' diamond shaped stop board was placed at the far end of the platform, in the same position as the 12 car stop board. As noted earlier there used to be a separate RLU stop board but this was removed meaning all 700s stop at the far end of the platform regardless of whether it is an 8 car or 12 car.

There is a stop board for the 717s located at the same place as the 6/8 car board. Not sure why there is one for each side of the island platform when there isn't for the 6/8 car board.

More recently an 'All 800x' stop board has appeared at the far end of the platform, in the same place as the 12 car and 'ALL' class 700 stop board.



In the Up direction things are a little more straightforward. There is a 4-8 car board with the 717 board at the same place. Then at the far end of the platform is the 12 car board, the class 700 'ALL' board and the 800 stop board.

 

[tpjm]

If you stop a 5 car train at the 5 car SDO on Bedford platform 1 on the down then the approach released signal at the end of the platform won’t come off as you’re not close enough.

But I expect the mega-minds on here (that both simultaneously need to post a thread on a forum for trainspotters to ask a question about something quite basic and then become experts on it immediately....) would prefer to be despatched against a red and draw up to it?

And yes, it’s been reported many many times, no one in authority particularly cares.

If that were on my patch, it'd be gone/relocated by the end of the week. If it doesn't serve a purpose, it might as well not be there and potentially does more harm than good (as you've mentioned, that moment of second guessing your route knowledge, potentially overcooking it and braking sharply and then having to draw forward against a red).

 

[Class2ldn]

Good god there is some morons on here, I mean seriously most of the people commenting aren't even drivers just spotters and know it alls who love to have a dig at a driver at the first opportunity.
We are humans and sometimes we make mistakes, some make no difference, some make a small difference and some can have far reaching consequences.
Depending on the incident then the reaction or repercussions are different.
If a driver stops long then its inconvenient but its not the end of the world, thats why they tell us to give it a few seconds before we release the doors to make sure we are in the correct spot, in the case of stopping short these few seconds can be the difference between making a serious error and not.
If you go past the car mark there not much you can do, you cant just whack It in reverse and go back to the correct point.
On TL in the core its more inconvenience because of wheelchairs but it happens. If you look at how many stations we stop at each day you might wind your necks in a bit and appreciate that to do that job day in day out and do it correctly every single time is not an easy thing.
If you compare how many stations are stopped at and how many times it happens then you'll realise that it is extremely rare.
Obviously if a driver keeps doing it then questions may start getting asked and that will be dealt with appropriately.
For all the armchair experts who don't do the job who seem to think they have the right to tell every driver how to do their job I suggest you go back to your train simulators and live in the dream world whilst us professionals go out there at all different hours doing our best to maintain our concentration so you can criticise us each day.

 

[bramling]

I checked the situation at Stevenage earlier today, and there have been a number of changes over the last few years.

Historically, on the up platform there were 3 and 4 car stop boards in the same position and 6 and 8 car boards further down the platform. These were located in a suitable position so that the CD and RA displays were visible. These NSE branded stop boards are still in place although a few years ago the 4 car stop board was taped over and a new 4 car board installed further along the platform (between the old position and the 6/8 car board).

Later a 12 car stop board was added right at the very far end of the platform, 12 car trains having to be manually dispatched at Stevenage.

Next the 387s came along and a combined 4/8 car stop board for 387s was installed in the same location as the old 6/8 car board. The board is positioned on the boundary fence so is visible from the drivers position in the cab. There is also a notice reminding drivers to open the doors on the far side.

For the 700s there is an 'ALL' diamond shaped stop board was placed at the far end of the platform, in the same position as the 12 car stop board. As noted earlier there used to be a separate RLU stop board but this was removed meaning all 700s stop at the far end of the platform regardless of whether it is an 8 car or 12 car.

There is a stop board for the 717s located at the same place as the 6/8 car board. Not sure why there is one for each side of the island platform when there isn't for the 6/8 car board.

More recently an 'All 800x' stop board has appeared at the far end of the platform, in the same place as the 12 car and 'ALL' class 700 stop board.

View attachment 93641View attachment 93642View attachment 93643

In the Up direction things are a little more straightforward. There is a 4-8 car board with the 717 board at the same place. Then at the far end of the platform is the 12 car board, the class 700 'ALL' board and the 800 stop board.

What a complete mess! The whole thing does seem like an incident waiting to happen.

Hitchin up used to be an odd one in 313 days. There were 3/4, 6/8 and 12 car marks, all pretty well sited for 317/365 such that everything stopped alongside the entrance (which was near the rear of the platform).

However some drivers of 313s used to stop short, especially 6-car trains, judging it so that the rear of the train stopped just into the platform, as opposed to running past the stairs. This practice conspicuously stopped some years ago.

 

[thirdraildrive]

Was this in a D.O.O area? Just to weigh in on this, it could simply be that the driver misjudged the braking a little and decided to continue to the next stopping position, as is policy in my neck of the woods, if you think you will overshoot your stopping position by more than five metres continue to the next stopping position. Thought I'd add that.

I'm not sure when it comes to non-D.O.O areas.

Kieran.