A Bad evening on the WCML north of Carlisle 13/08/23

[voyagerdude220]

Good evening all,

I have sympathy for anyone affected by the severe delays north of Carlisle this evening.

I think 1S83 18:10 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh (397005) failed in the Beattock area (at approximately 21:00 according to Real Time Trains). It was arranged for Avanti 9S93 16:15 London Euston to Edinburgh to pull alongside the failed train for a train to train evacuation to take place. Unfortunately someone was taken ill on 9S93 at Lockerbie- I'm guessing it terminated there with passengers being picked up on the following Avanti service. The train itself ended up running empty to Carlisle.

I believe there has also been a points failure in the Beattock area causing even more delays. And to think passengers on 1S83 have been stationary for nearly 4 hours at the time of me posting this. [Yes I know nothing can prevent train failures]

 

[CalderTrains]

Just had a look, a 1Z99 seems to be heading for 1S83, like you I have sympathy for everyone on that service, must be absolutely awful.

 

[Surreytraveller]

1S26 about two hours down

 

[Class385]

6 hours+ to move a failed unit

 

[jagardner1984]

An extra 4 hours on 1S95 too ….

Realtime Trains | 1S95 1829 London Euston to Glasgow Central | 13/08/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S95 1829 departure from London Euston to Glasgow Central on 13/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Toby268]

Was an awful night. It would’ve been resolved quicker than it was, if it wasn’t for, as you say, the points failure in the beattock area which delayed the plans for SLW for a considerable period of time until they could be clamped. The plan was originally to run 9S93 to Edinburgh and for it to do the train to train evacuation, until a medical emergency put a stop to that at Lockerbie. They ended up running an additional service early hours this morning from Glasgow to Edinburgh to get stranded passengers home, as they couldn’t source any buses. A bad situation that just got worse as time progressed, and a horrible night for the passengers and crew.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Puzzled as to why a train would be terminated due to a medical emergency? Couldn't an ambulance have met the train at Lockerbie station and taken them to hospital and then the train continued its journey?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Puzzled as to why a train would be terminated due to a medical emergency? Couldn't an ambulance have met the train at Lockerbie station and taken them to hospital and then the train continued its journey?

That was something which confused me as well. Particularly because the train involved ended up running empty to Carlisle. I'd assume the train crew initially working 9S93 would have been Glasgow or Edinburgh based.

 

[800001]

All d

Puzzled as to why a train would be terminated due to a medical emergency? Couldn't an ambulance have met the train at Lockerbie station and taken them to hospital and then the train continued its journey?

All depends if the person could be removed from the train straight away, was an ambulance readily available to meet the train at Lockerbie? Or was it going to be a while before the ambulance got there?

Lately I’ve seen trains terminate at stations and had Ill passengers on board for several hours awaiting an ambulance and they were advised not to remove the person from train until ambulance arrived.

 

[Falcon1200]

Obviously the points failure and medical emergency complicated things, but this looks like (yet) another incident where bi-directional signalling on the double track sections of the WCML would have greatly reduced the delays.

 

[QueensCurve]

Obviously the points failure and medical emergency complicated things, but this looks like (yet) another incident where bi-directional signalling on the double track sections of the WCML would have greatly reduced the delays.

Yes. Even if only on the steeply graded sections - Tebay to Shap and Beattock to Beattock Summit - which are the sections that seem to have the most casualties. I wondered however if 1S83 failed alongside the Summit Loop which may have helped?

 

[The Bear]

as they couldn’t source any buses.

They're very very lucky they managed to get crew together there but I'm not surprised they couldn't source busses.

Contingency plans for the northern WCML are outdated, they don't take into account of the numbers of services now running or the numbers of passengers that are now traveling.
As things stand on the northern WCML, its now a case of putting almost 100% reliance on sourcing busses, but with all the best will in the world you'll never get enough to cover unplanned disruption on good day.

this looks like (yet) another incident where bi-directional signalling on the double track sections of the WCML would have greatly reduced the delays.

Not that this wasn't asked for years ago when West Coast Route Modernisation was being planned..........

Even if only on the steeply graded sections - Tebay to Shap and Beattock to Beattock Summit - which are the sections that seem to have the most casualties.

I quite agree. I've known incidents happen on Shap (BTW - Tebay to Shap Summit is the easiest section on Carlisle PSB's patch to put SLW on!) where SLW would have kept trains moving, but no......
Trains kept standing in greenfield sites for hours on end, trains turned short, not enough busses, diverting no longer an option (don't get me started), Preston & Carlisle stations overcrowded, everywhere in between almost forgotten about, NR not enough staff available for SLW, etc etc etc.....

A very poor state of affairs if I'm honest.

 

[Falcon1200]

Not that this wasn't asked for years ago when West Coast Route Modernisation was being planned..........

And if I had a pound for every time I suggested, or rather moaned, about it during incidents I would be richer than Elon Musk!

NR not enough staff available for SLW

Indeed, maybe things have changed since I retired seven years ago, but some SLW sections required four staff on the ground, and this in remote areas. Getting enough staff on site, in anything like a reasonable timescale, was a challenge then, and I doubt the staffing situation has improved since.

 

[The Puddock]

Indeed, maybe things have changed since I retired seven years ago, but some SLW sections required four staff on the ground, and this in remote areas. Getting enough staff on site, in anything like a reasonable timescale, was a challenge then, and I doubt the staffing situation has improved since.

A big problem now is that most p-way staff have lost their Handsignaller competence, since these days it is only required for Single Line Working and Temporary Block Working.

 

[The Bear]

And if I had a pound for every time I suggested, or rather moaned, about it during incidents I would be richer than Elon Musk!

You're one of many, myself included.

Indeed, maybe things have changed since I retired seven years ago, but some SLW sections required four staff on the ground, and this in remote areas. Getting enough staff on site, in anything like a reasonable timescale, was a challenge then, and I doubt the staffing situation has improved since.

Yes, where groundframes are concerned particularly if they've not been moved for a long time which is why it now takes two staff to operate most.

Also it's worth mentioning that a lot of the EGF's & crossovers have been taken out making SLW sections very long.
This was of course a kneejerk reaction in the aftermath of Lambrigg...

A big problem now is that most p-way staff have lost their Handsignaller competence, since these days it is only required for Single Line Working and Temporary Block Working.

Absolutely spot on!
Its now making SLW a dark art......

 

[Bald Rick]

Not that this wasn't asked for years ago when West Coast Route Modernisation was being planned..........

But WCRM weren’t resignalling it. Installing Bi Di on an uni directional railway effectively requires resignalling. It would have cost hundreds of millions, and before you ask - the costs of delays etc in the intervening 2 decades would be nowhere near enough to offset that.

And if I had a pound for every time I suggested, or rather moaned, about it during incidents I would be richer than Elon Musk!

Now come on, I don’t believe you have asked 180 billion times

 

[Falcon1200]

Now come on, I don’t believe you have asked 180 billion times

It seemed like it! The other suggestion I made, more than once, was that the performance impact and financial cost should be measured every time SLW was required, regardless of the reason, and compared to the disruption should bi-di signalling have been available. Preferably going right back to when the route was resignalled in the 1970s, although even I recognised that might be asking a bit much..... The cumulative cost, compared to that for bi-di signalling, would have been interesting.

(I recall one evening when SLW was required, at the far, ie south, end of the WCML in Scotland, due to an overhead line (OLE) fault. We really struggled to get enough staff out, so much so that by the time all those required were on site, the OLE guys had got there first and repaired the defect!)

 

[Bald Rick]

The cumulative cost, compared to that for bi-di signalling, would have been interesting.

I can guarantee that the cumulative cost will be les than the cost of retro fitting bidi for the best part of 200 miles.

When the line is resignalled, it should have bidi. But not before.

 

[Falcon1200]

I can guarantee that the cumulative cost will be les than the cost of retro fitting bidi for the best part of 200 miles.

Hmm, I'm not totally convinced! During my years as NR Controller for the WCML in Scotland I dealt with innumerable incidents when one line was blocked and everything in that direction stood for up to two hours until SLW could be introduced. By the time it was introduced, thanks to the need to get trains on the affected line moving and the time taken to pass each train through SLW (as opposed to bi-di signalling), the service on the unaffected line was wrecked as well. One night I came in after a freight derailment at Beattock, SLW was in place but there were so many trains standing already that the first thing I did was tell Carlisle and Motherwell SCs not to despatch any further trains towards the area, as on current performance it would stand for around 5 hours!

 

[Bald Rick]

Hmm, I'm not totally convinced!

You’ll have to trust me!
(or TRUST me )

 

[Falcon1200]

You’ll have to trust me!

Fair enough!

It just seems a pity that while bi-di signalling has been installed on other routes, such as part of Glasgow/Ayr (in 1986!) and more recently, on part of my local Glasgow/Neilston suburban branch line, it has never been extended to the business-critical WCML, or indeed most of the ECML in Scotland.

 

[The Planner]

Fair enough!

It just seems a pity that while bi-di signalling has been installed on other routes, such as part of Glasgow/Ayr (in 1986!) and more recently, on part of my local Glasgow/Neilston suburban branch line, it has never been extended to the business-critical WCML, or indeed most of the ECML in Scotland.

Carlisle, Preston amd Warrington have to be resignalled in the next 10-15 years. They will be ETCS, so bi-di will get put in.

 

[Falcon1200]

Carlisle, Preston amd Warrington have to be resignalled in the next 10-15 years. They will be ETCS, so bi-di will get put in.

Good news, hopefully Scotland will follow suit.

 

[zwk500]

It just seems a pity that while bi-di signalling has been installed on other routes, such as part of Glasgow/Ayr (in 1986!) and more recently, on part of my local Glasgow/Neilston suburban branch line, it has never been extended to the business-critical WCML, or indeed most of the ECML in Scotland.

Remember that if you were installing Bi-di onto the WCML you'd need to take multiple long possessions which cause disruption in and of themselves. The benefit of the bi-di then takes even longer to pay back according to the way these things are done. Whereas if you're taking the possessions for improvements in the day-to-day booked service then it's far less additional cost to install bi-di at the same time.

I am slightly surprised there weren't some limited interventions available to the emergency crossovers between Carlisle and Carstairs to allow them to be used more flexibly for emergency use. Probably links back to withdrawing lineside staff competencies though.

Carlisle, Preston amd Warrington have to be resignalled in the next 10-15 years. They will be ETCS, so bi-di will get put in.

Is there an updated public list of when various bits are expected to go over to ETCS? I know the list on the Signal Box website is somewhat out of date.

 

[The Planner]

Is there an updated public list of when various bits are expected to go over to ETCS? I know the list on the Signal Box website is somewhat out of date.

No, but from what I have been told it will go north to south in terms of work, so Carlisle first as its the most straightforward really. NR won't normally commit to more than one of these types/size of jobs per control period in a region. If I was a gambling man, its going to be late 28/early 29 before we see anything switched over. Consider train fitment and driver training for a start.

 

[zwk500]

No, but from what I have been told it will go north to south in terms of work, so Carlisle first as its the most straightforward really. NR won't normally commit to more than one of these types/size of jobs per control period in a region. If I was a gambling man, its going to be late 28/early 29 before we see anything switched over. Consider train fitment and driver training for a start.

Yes, wasn't expecting firm dates, but more sort of which CP. But thanks for the 'gut feel'.

 

[The Puddock]

Good news, hopefully Scotland will follow suit.

The indications so far are that Scotland won’t be transitioning to ETCS any time soon -

The Scottish Ministers have considered carefully the planned approach to signalling investment elsewhere in Great Britain for CP7, but consider that it does not align with Scotland’s strategic priorities at this time.

In particular, the Scottish Ministers consider that no business case exists for the European Train Control System (ETCS) Level 2 in Scotland at this time, as the railway traffic characteristics and capacity issues are not the same as those for which this system is more effective. Further, that the potential benefits of this system may be secured more cost effectively, more quickly and at lower risk by other investments.

(from sections 4.7 and 4.8 of the CP7 High Level Output Specification)

No doubt there will be more information forthcoming when the Signalling Scotland’s Future strategic plan, referred to in the HLOS, is published. This was due in Spring 2024 but I understand it may have been delayed…

 

[LAX54]

A big problem now is that most p-way staff have lost their Handsignaller competence, since these days it is only required for Single Line Working and Temporary Block Working.

and will only get worse with the planned reduction in maintainance staff, and revised hours they work, and competentcies, but it seems still that most of the public do not support the dsipute on this, so these incidents will only increase in length of time to rectify. even the MOM role is being stripped back

 

[Bald Rick]

The indications so far are that Scotland won’t be transitioning to ETCS any time soon -



(from sections 4.7 and 4.8 of the CP7 High Level Output Specification)

No doubt there will be more information forthcoming when the Signalling Scotland’s Future strategic plan, referred to in the HLOS, is published. This was due in Spring 2024 but I understand it may have been delayed…

I suspect that Scottish ministers will change their minds when they see how much Motherwell resignalling costs if done conventionally (for the WCML south of Law Jn) when everything using it will already be ETCS fitted.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

No, but from what I have been told it will go north to south in terms of work, so Carlisle first as its the most straightforward really. NR won't normally commit to more than one of these types/size of jobs per control period in a region. If I was a gambling man, its going to be late 28/early 29 before we see anything switched over. Consider train fitment and driver training for a start.

Interesting, as that goes against the order (I think you possibly replied to myself on another thread about WCML signalling) that has been reported - Warrington, then Preston, then Carlisle, between 2030 and 2035?