A depressingly familiar journey through broken Britain

[Mcr Warrior]

So which services on the GB network are, most often, routinely short-formed?

 

[Scott1]

A lot of the comments on that article seem to be referring to the journalist's political inclinations and saying to get over it etc - 2 cars is clearly not enough but it's not news really. I eagerly await Labour's immediate solution to this line's overcrowding...

The solution is new rolling stock. The 158 unts have air con that doesn't work when it's hot and reliability issues the rest of the time, which is unsurprising given their age. The route needs longer trains, on longer platforms and the line needs more capacity to accommodate them. If this was a London line it would have been sorted 30 years ago, but because it's just the Midlands no one is interested.

As to your assertion that's not news really, that attitude is simply helping the government ignore the problem by pretending it doesn't exist surely? This has been a problem for years, and as the trains have aged has got worse, with no plans to do anything about it. No new trains, no investment. I've had to use this service a fair bit, and it's never been even close to the standard on other routes that connect so many cities.

 

[6Gman]

So which services on the GB network are, most often, routinely short-formed?

Several TfW routes in recent times, though that should improve with full introduction of new stock (though I suspect issues will remain e.g. on the North Wales coast in summer).

And the EMR/TPE routes already mentioned in this thread.

There may, of course, be others with which I am less familiar.

 

[Llandudno]

Outwith disruption it is usually pretty reliably 4 car 158s or 170s now, and I believe some 6 car diagrams should be starting shortly. All trains today are showing fully formed.

The summer is invariably a challenge with Skegness eating up units, some 4 and 5 car lashups have had to be kicked onto that route to resolve overcrowding with the 3 cars.

Apparently a proposal is going in to the DfT to use 5 or 6 car 170s on the route going forward as a 2 car 158 has enough seats to ease some of the full and standing 2 car 170 services as a double benefit.

Hopefully it should settle down before long.

But will a 5 or 6 car Class 170 offer any more seats than a 4 car 158?

 

[TheBigD]

But will a 5 or 6 car Class 170 offer any more seats than a 4 car 158?

4 car 158 has 284 seats.
170/5 has 122 seats.
170/4 has (I think) 186 seats.

So a 5 car 170 will have around 24 extra seats.

EMR's 170/2 2 car and 3 car have a slightly different seating capacity.

 

[Llandudno]

4 car 158 has 284 seats.
170/5 has 122 seats.
170/4 has (I think) 186 seats.

So a 5 car 170 will have around 24 extra seats.

EMR's 170/2 2 car and 3 car have a slightly different seating capacity.

Thanks, so provided a 5 or 6 car configuration turns up it will be an increase in capacity.

Dwell times should be reduced at busy stations owing to multiple, wider doors.
Can 5/6 car 170s call at all the necessary stations between Nottingham and Liverpool?

The ambiance inside the 170s is much better, but they could do with a refurb!

How do they compare performance wise with the 158s in terms of top speed and more importantly acceleration and braking?

 

[Pinza-C55]

Thirty years ago they would have been slagging British Rail off in exactly the same terms. That option is no longer available so what solution do they suggest ?

 

[387star]

What's the stock plan for this line?

 

[yorksrob]

During the Northern Rail strike a few years ago, they ran a six carriage 156 between Liverpool and Manchester over the CLC. This was only done once because they found out some of the platforms were too short.

Has this been sorted out now ?

 

[sprunt]

Thirty years ago they would have been slagging British Rail off in exactly the same terms. That option is no longer available so what solution do they suggest ?

That the rail industry get its act together and provide an acceptable level of service on this important route?

 

[Towers]

Ex EMR 156s are currently sat in store at Ely, aren’t they?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Ex EMR 156s are currently sat in store at Ely, aren’t they?

Most are in service with Northern (or in repairs awaiting that future) only a few in the worst condition are at Ely waiting for their death.

 

[Pinza-C55]

That the rail industry get its act together and provide an acceptable level of service on this important route?

Well apparently it couldn't do that when it was nationalised and it can't do it when it is privatised so I think the critics need to put forward workable solutions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well apparently it couldn't do that when it was nationalised and it can't do it when it is privatised so I think the critics need to put forward workable solutions.

It's been stated many times - a workable solution is to reduce the published timetable to one you can deliver (to say 95% punctuality and reliability) with the resources you have, because doing otherwise is just being dishonest.

 

[Parjon]

From the Liverpool Echo:

I can confirm that trains between Sheffield and Manchester are usually full to capacity, or more...

On the positive side, hopefully our local "political editor" was going for a job interview.

 

[zwk500]

It's been stated many times - a workable solution is to reduce the published timetable to one you can deliver (to say 95% punctuality and reliability) with the resources you have, because doing otherwise is just being dishonest.

While this may be workable it's hardly a solution. It's a sacrifice to the Commuting gods, with about the same success rate as ancient ritual sacrifices.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While this may be workable it's hardly a solution. It's a sacrifice to the Commuting gods, with about the same success rate as ancient ritual sacrifices.

It's part of the solution. You then need to increase your resources so you can then increase the timetable again.

I've been using Chiltern during the overtime bans to go to London at least in part because they have published a reduced emergency timetable that is reasonably reliable rather than cancelling randomly as LNR have been doing.

 

[zwk500]

It's part of the solution. You then need to increase your resources so you can then increase the timetable again.

I've been using Chiltern during the overtime bans to go to London at least in part because they have published a reduced emergency timetable that is reasonably reliable rather than cancelling randomly as LNR have been doing.

It's a workaround, a piece of gaffa tape if you will. It achieves a much more basic objective of simply offering a service. The solution is the second part of your post - resource yourself adequately for the demand you face, so that you offer a suitable or good service.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Is this the same "Liverpool Echo" that shut its printing plant in Liverpool and outsourced printing to faraway Oldham?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a workaround, a piece of gaffa tape if you will. It achieves a much more basic objective of simply offering a service.

Indeed. It's something that can be implemented fairly quickly and can return passenger trust.

I do not trust WMT during the overtime bans, I do trust Chiltern because they've replanned for it.

The solution is the second part of your post - resource yourself adequately for the demand you face, so that you offer a suitable or good service.

Yes, but recruitment and training is something that takes months, whereas planning an emergency timetable is more in the realm of weeks. So you do that first, alongside a recruitment and training (or rolling stock obtaining, if that's the issue) programme.

 

[irish_rail]

Anyone with an ounce of understanding can see that Britain is currently broken every which way.

The article is also a good reminder that, despite the weasel words of Bojo and his ilk, England is run in the South, by the South and for the South.

Errrrr the north is practically like London and the south east looking from down here in the south west. Let's not group all southerners in the same group eh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Errrrr the north is practically like London and the south east looking from down here in the south west. Let's not group all southerners in the same group eh.

I think "the South" in that sense really means "the wider South East". People are I think well aware that Cornwall's economy is much more like that of the North West (say the Lake District) than it is to London's.

 

[modernrail]

Anybody who thinks this is not political is sucking exhaust fumes. We have a Government that has made its major pitch to the north that it gets that it needs to invest that fails, consistently, day in day out, to implement even the simplest investments. In fact, it has all gone backwards, massively. It used to be dread that a 2 car service was an about to pull up already overloaded. Now, on most express services across the Pennines, it is dread that nothing will pull up at all.

For a Government that has made its core pitch ‘levelling up’ that should be an instant and major red flag that it needs to intervene, sort its own DfT out, either implement GBR or an alternative. Get on with it. Show a minimum level of competence to its electorate.

Yet here we are. 13 years later. Not only no discernible levelling up but a giant s*it show of substandard transpennine services.

Of course it is political. It is a massive amount of hot air and a pathetic administration that makes laughable weird fantasist claims about NPR whilst failing to ensure the current adverted timetable is anything other than a complete work of fiction.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The solution to this to me is simple, when the new intercity stock arrives at East Midlands send some of the seven car meridians for a refurbishment which would include removal or at least mothballing of the catering facilities and conversion of all first class to standard as well as a general cosmetic tidying up and conversion of one carriage to a high density one with lots of tip-up seats bike spaces and luggage storage. You then have intercity stock capable of giving its all on the faster stretches and providing enough capacity at most times of the day and week

 

[modernrail]

The solution to this to me is simple, when the new intercity stock arrives at East Midlands send some of the seven car meridians for a refurbishment which would include removal or at least mothballing of the catering facilities and conversion of all first class to standard as well as a general cosmetic tidying up and conversion of one carriage to a high density one with lots of tip-up seats bike spaces and luggage storage. You then have intercity stock capable of giving its all on the faster stretches and providing enough capacity at most times of the day and week

They will absolutely never do it. The fear of running an express service across the Pennines with anything approaching sufficient capacity on a consistent basis without subjecting the the levelled uppers to constant fear of short formed services is extreme. Since days of old, this way if has always been, this way it will always be.

Imagine your disappointment when, day after day, a sufficiently long train for travel between modern major European cities emerges from the tunnel. Imagine how adequate it would all feel.

 

[LowLevel]

The solution to this to me is simple, when the new intercity stock arrives at East Midlands send some of the seven car meridians for a refurbishment which would include removal or at least mothballing of the catering facilities and conversion of all first class to standard as well as a general cosmetic tidying up and conversion of one carriage to a high density one with lots of tip-up seats bike spaces and luggage storage. You then have intercity stock capable of giving its all on the faster stretches and providing enough capacity at most times of the day and week

Trundling around at 70 up and down hills doesn't do the 222s any good.

 

[ChrisC]

Thirty years ago they would have been slagging British Rail off in exactly the same terms. That option is no longer available so what solution do they suggest ?

I remember from 30+ years ago when the hourly Liverpool to Norwich service was first introduced. After just a handful of North West to East Anglia trains a day, serving a variety of destinations, this was a fantastic improvement. Initially this service was operated using the then new 156 units before the 158’s became available. I used it quite regularly in those days between Alfreton and Manchester. Shortly after its introduction I wrote a letter which was published in a railway magazine of the time. My letter was in praise of the new hourly service and the new 156 units. However, my main point was my concern at how overcrowded they already were. Things have not changed in 30 years, although things are better now than all those years ago as most trains are 4 carriages.

 

[jamesst]

Is this the same "Liverpool Echo" that shut its printing plant in Liverpool and outsourced printing to faraway Oldham?

The one and only

 

[al78]

Is this the same "Liverpool Echo" that shut its printing plant in Liverpool and outsourced printing to faraway Oldham?

Irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[modernrail]

Trundling around at 70 up and down hills doesn't do the 222s any good.

Speaks to how unfit for purpose the transpennine connections are that trains used on cross-country between lots of more secondary destinations wouldn’t work on TP lines.