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A new Beeching-style report is needed, to refocus the role of rail

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daodao

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@The Ham

Both of your 2 lengthy posts today are essentially off topic for this thread. They concern cars and car use.

The emphasis in the OP was the need to streamline heavy rail in GB to make it more cost-effective and efficient and reduce the subsidies required to run it. Some pruning may be needed (the Kyle and Settle/Carlisle lines would be top of my list), but that is only a small fraction of the issue.

Other desirable changes include extending modernised working practices that already exist in some areas to the whole of the network, simplifying ticketing arrangements, fares and fare rules, and standardising rolling stock and retiring old micro-fleets.
 
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yorksrob

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@The Ham

Both of your 2 lengthy posts today are essentially off topic for this thread.

The emphasis in the OP was the need to streamline heavy rail in GB to make it more cost-effective and efficient and reduce the subsidies required to run it. Some pruning may be needed (the Kyle and Settle/Carlisle lines would be top of my list), but that is only a small fraction of the issue.

Other desirable changes include extending modernised working practices that already exist in some areas to the whole of the network, simplifying ticketing arrangements, fares and fare rules, and standardising rolling stock and retiring old micro-fleets.

On the contrary, @The Ham hits the nail on the head with the observation that with numbers down to what they were in the late noughties - which at the time was seen as a boom time in rail use, there is no justification for a closure programme. In fact the only people calling for it are those who have always held that agenda and see the current situation as an opportunity to jump on a bandwagon.
 

daodao

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..... there is no justification for a closure programme.
This would be only a small part of the package, and would be confined to a few rural lines serving sparse populations with minimal freight traffic and no longer distance passenger trains. I would also advocate re-opening selected lines in major conurbations, e.g. Gateacre to Hunt's Cross, Walsall to Aldridge.
 

yorksrob

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This would be only a small part of the package, and would be confined to a few rural lines serving sparse populations with minimal freight traffic and no longer distance passenger trains. I would also advocate re-opening selected lines in major conurbations, e.g. Gateacre to Hunt's Cross, Walsall to Aldridge.

It seems noticeable that the "few rural lines" mentioned always seem to be those such as the ones west of Skipton which attract decent numbers of passengers, which somewhat undermines the concept for me.
 

The Ham

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@The Ham

Both of your 2 lengthy posts today are essentially off topic for this thread. They concern cars and car use.

The emphasis in the OP was the need to streamline heavy rail in GB to make it more cost-effective and efficient and reduce the subsidies required to run it. Some pruning may be needed (the Kyle and Settle/Carlisle lines would be top of my list), but that is only a small fraction of the issue.

Other desirable changes include extending modernised working practices that already exist in some areas to the whole of the network, simplifying ticketing arrangements, fares and fare rules, and standardising rolling stock and retiring old micro-fleets.

Any change to rail will impact on roads, the point on my posts was to put forwards the argument that those who drive cars should actually like as many other people to use the railways as possible so that their travel was less delayed and congested.

This would be only a small part of the package, and would be confined to a few rural lines serving sparse populations with minimal freight traffic and no longer distance passenger trains. I would also advocate re-opening selected lines in major conurbations, e.g. Gateacre to Hunt's Cross, Walsall to Aldridge.

In which case you'd have no problem with such proposals having to be justified through a business case (similar to a reopening had to go through). As, I have said in the past, what may look like it costs the country money (due to few passengers) may actually cover its costs when other factors (like giving people access to employment, thus saving benefits and earning taxes) are considered.

Likewise if we are removing railways there maybe other costs (such as road upgrades) are needed.

Even if a bus was a cheaper and viable option to replace the railways; how long would you trust the government to carry on funding it?
 

matacaster

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Yes, there’s rather dystopian and “out of sight, out of mind” about shoving disabled people off public transport, even if it is into taxis, as is often suggested.
Whilst desirable, the problem is that making the railway fully disability compliant is frighteningly expensive. This makes the railway as a whole requiring even more subsidy and the cost of say a new small station with ramps, lifts etc means hardly any come to fruition. Disabled access is no problem at major stations which likely have a fair number of disabled users. However, how many disabled people actually use medium and small stations - anyone with figures on this? The issue is one of how much money do we spend on expensive railway disability measures. A taxi would be much cheaper and potentially give a door to door service (or to nearest disabled access station) which is surely better for the disabled.
Whilst I believe that disability costs come at least partly from a separate budget, it's still part of the whole government expenditure and is clearly related to rail. A balanced view would make stations with a good number of disabled passengers,or where there is no other compliant station within X miles, compliant. This would mean money is available for improved services for the vast majority but disabled access is realistically provided. Eg would it be sensible to consider full disabled access, lifts etc at a station like dent?
 

The Ham

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Whilst desirable, the problem is that making the railway fully disability compliant is frighteningly expensive. This makes the railway as a whole requiring even more subsidy and the cost of say a new small station with ramps, lifts etc means hardly any come to fruition. Disabled access is no problem at major stations which likely have a fair number of disabled users. However, how many disabled people actually use medium and small stations - anyone with figures on this? The issue is one of how much money do we spend on expensive railway disability measures. A taxi would be much cheaper and potentially give a door to door service (or to nearest disabled access station) which is surely better for the disabled.
Whilst I believe that disability costs come at least partly from a separate budget, it's still part of the whole government expenditure and is clearly related to rail. A balanced view would make stations with a good number of disabled passengers,or where there is no other compliant station within X miles, compliant. This would mean money is available for improved services for the vast majority but disabled access is realistically provided. Eg would it be sensible to consider full disabled access, lifts etc at a station like dent?

There's a lot of people who benefit from easier access to trains (the elderly, small children, those with buggies, etc.).

Many smaller stations do provide platform access by providing a second access point.

The big cost is likely to be getting level access at stations, for example my local station the station building limits the potential for this all the way along the platform. However even having a hump for 50m would give your access to at least 2 (if not 3) coaches. The problem is that different stations have their buildings in different places, making level access to any one coach at all the stations hard to deliver without at least some stations having problems with their buildings getting in the way. One option could be a step up from the building, but enough of a walkway to allow a ramp up a short distance away (i.e. not where the buildings are) although this may require the station canopy to be extended, although this would only really work where there's a reasonable platform width and passenger numbers aren't very high (probably comfortably sub 1 million per year with a 3m wide platform), which would limit the number of places where this could work

Whilst there would be costs with such works, once in place they cost very little extra in upkeep. If the humps are done as part of the general maintenance of the platform surfaces at least some of the costs are shared with existing costs. It's also the sort of works which can be carried out whilst other line closures are in place, which further reduces the costs.

However by making it level access (or even just a 50mm step rather than a 200mm step) it would likely enable a few more to use that station and with a 60 year payback period you wouldn't need all that many each week using it for it to be viable to do.

Yes you still need lifts and ramps at larger stations, however many of these already have them. However do a few a year and your gain the incremental benefits. However you also gain some extra passengers who otherwise would have been unable to use the railways.

Of course, whilst passenger numbers are still growing, but below pre Covid levels, we could afford to be more selective in which stations were enhance to limit the current level of support. However, such enhancements have always been a fairly limited part of the overall railway budget (£0.4bn between 2006 and now, so averaging £25 million a year vs the total railway spend of £25,000 million), so any reduction is likely to have a very limited impact (especially given the fact it atracts more people to use the railways).

My local line in the 1990's had major stations at least 25 minutes apart from each other which had lifts, however none of the 5 stains between had even a second (ramped) access, now 2 have lifts, and 2 more have a second access (one was paid for by a developer, so didn't even cost the railways anything). The 5th is going to be hard to deliver, but with a circa 5 minute journey time to a station with lifts (both have at least 4tph in each direction for onwards travel) doubling back isn't too bad (or too expensive if you buy a return to/from that next station rather than the correct station - even if that's not strictly allowed within the rules as your break in journey isn't in the right part of your trip).
 

daodao

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@The Ham

Making facilities "disability compliant" has a significant cost, yet alone leading to ugly structures in many places. There needs to be a monetary value put on disability access, so that the cost of the works can be compared with the effective benefit, which will clearly depend on the passenger usage of the station. If the enhancements are not deemed cost-effective, they should not be made.
 

The Ham

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@The Ham

Making facilities "disability compliant" has a significant cost, yet alone leading to ugly structures in many places. There needs to be a monetary value put on disability access, so that the cost of the works can be compared with the effective benefit, which will clearly depend on the passenger usage of the station. If the enhancements are not deemed cost-effective, they should not be made.

Indeed, however when we look at the annual cost of doing these works, it's a nearly insignificant cost.

If you were in £18,000 (take home) a year making a saving of £2.08 a month isn't going to make much of difference. Yes you may need to cut it, but it's not going to make a big difference to your costs, not when you're paying £83.33/month for something your dad covers for your sibling but not for you for no real reason (that being the loan payments for investment and your sibling being National Highways).
 

daodao

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.... something your dad covers for your sibling but not for you for no real reason (that being the loan payments for investment and your sibling being National Highways).
That is a separate matter, off topic for this thread. In any case, is not spending on roads more than covered by various specific taxes on road users?
 

The Ham

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That is a separate matter, off topic for this thread. In any case, is not spending on roads more than covered by various specific taxes on road users?

It's been covered elsewhere, it depends on what you count, for example do you cover the cost to the country of deaths and injuries, do you cover the cost of carbon emissions (both of which are significantly more costly for roads than railways), do you consider what it would cost to find the other to cater for the loss of the other (for example if you closed the railways, what would be the cost in delays and further road schemes to cater for the 10% of miles traveled), etc.

The short answer is we need both. However both have issues and both should be put to use by the government to aid the other in fixing the issues.

For example rail can help with reducing traffic congestion and pollution, whilst roads are needed to get people the first/last few (or in some cases several miles) of their journey.

By making it easier for people to walk/cycle their local journeys it would mean that more people would use rail (whilst this may not reduce the total cost of the railways at there would be more investment needed) which could reduce the cost to the country in per passenger support.

However by having more travel happen on railways those who use the roads will get stuck in less congestion.

Of course the opposite is true, if we reduce the number using the railways roads are likely to get more congested, costing people more (if nothing else in fuel) and taking them more time to do anything.
 

eldomtom2

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@The Ham

Making facilities "disability compliant" has a significant cost, yet alone leading to ugly structures in many places. There needs to be a monetary value put on disability access, so that the cost of the works can be compared with the effective benefit, which will clearly depend on the passenger usage of the station. If the enhancements are not deemed cost-effective, they should not be made.
I'm fairly certain the relevant legislation does specify that disabled access is only mandatory where it is proportionate, or words to that effect, but does not specify precisely what "proportionate" is.
 

lachlan

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That is a separate matter, off topic for this thread. In any case, is not spending on roads more than covered by various specific taxes on road users?
It is not a separate matter and very much on topic when you consider that spending on roads pulls people away from public transport whereas putting money into buses and trains encourages them to drive less.
@The Ham

Making facilities "disability compliant" has a significant cost, yet alone leading to ugly structures in many places. There needs to be a monetary value put on disability access, so that the cost of the works can be compared with the effective benefit, which will clearly depend on the passenger usage of the station. If the enhancements are not deemed cost-effective, they should not be made.
"Ugly structures" is irrelevant. Access for disabled people is more important than whether something is aesthetically pleasing to you.
 

nw1

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I think permanent closures of lines and stations would be incredibly damaging, as they could not be reversed easily, as we have seen already with Beeching.

We are going through a harsh period, but any cuts should be temporary ones which can be easily reversed. For example, cutting the frequency "for now" but then re-instating it when demand comes back.

And some stations might be quiet but fulfil a social need of some sort. What for example do people on here think of a station like Beaulieu Road? Not the busiest station on the network but provides access to a wild part of the New Forest for those without a car and does not require an extra service, just a call in an existing service. Some bean-counter would probably have little appreciation of that.

Also running down public transport is not exactly compatible with the green agenda. If they close railways, they would have to replace them with some kind of fast and comfortable bus service which is as attractive to long-distance travel as the railway is, and offers full through ticketing with rail services. And that would have to stay, and be protected, not quietly removed as happened with the Beeching bus replacements.
 
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