A query on priorities ...

[Ostrich]

Traveling on the (circa) 11:45 Chiltern semi-fast from Leamington to Solihull today, and leaving either on time or a minute late, we approached Hatton Bank at a less than sparkling pace, but steadily climbed it, overtaking a Freightliner container train in the loop, which I assumed was the reason for the prior slow running.

However, we then ground to a halt at the top of the bank and the Freightliner was let out of the loop in front of us. When we eventually got under way, it was double yellow and yellow through to Solihull, including down to walking pace at Dorridge!

The result was we were 14 minutes down at Solihull, with a knock-on 5 minute delay to the next two passenger services according to the screens, the Chiltern stopper to Moor Street and a LM local.

Just wondering ..... I thought when it came to traffic regulation, passenger services automatically took priority over freight because of the “delay” issue – isn’t this the case? Would there have been a compelling reason to give the freight priority over such a long section, presumably through to Tyseley?

 

[Anon Mouse]

The train I worked the other day was 10 mins late upon arrival its destination due to a GBRF freight being signalled infront. It happens every now and then, its annoying but I guess its part and parcel of the industry

 

[12CSVT]

Looks like Freightliner paid more for paths than Chiltern on this stretch of line.

 

[The Planner]

Could be one of a hundred reasons, it could have caused more trouble later on if the liner ran late, driver hours, anything. Signallers don't tend to run things out of booked order these days as any regulating decision that causes the slightest delay to something else normally gets coded back to the signaller themselves.

As for the payment for paths, the signaller isn't going to know that. We certainly don't plan trains that way, we make them work around the contractural rights they have and the requirements of the operator. In the case of the freight it will have a specified time it has to leave its origin and a time to arrive at destination in its contract with a route and stops along the way for crew relief etc specified by the FOC. We then path it as close as we can to that requirement with an element of flexing as the contract allows.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Happens quite often on the Reading - Basingstoke line. Lost count the number of times we have left Reading station on time only to be held at outside Reading West station to see a freight go through. It's annoying when it happens but like The Planner said. Could be many reasons as to why it happens.

 

[Smudger105e]

The FOC's pay for the paths the same as the TOC's. :P

 

[Minilad]

Oh don't get me started !!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I take it your heart has sank as many times as mine has when you have been following a freight for miles and then see that the goods loop at Hatton is empty?

 

[Rugd1022]

I take it your heart has sank as many times as mine has when you have been following a freight for miles and then see that the goods loop at Hatton is empty?

You should try driving a freight up Hatton goods loop - it's painful! The problem is on the approach to the loop entrance you're brought down almost to a stand, then when the signal comes off it's a slow agonising 10mph grind all the way to the top.... so you poor souls in the unit behind have to endure the inevitable delay.

On several occasions I've been signalled into the loop thinking there's a unit up my backside.... then when I get to the top the road is set for me to go straight out mainline again.....

It's even slower going into the down loop at Dorridge - 5mph through the last set of points....

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Surely a Class 1 should be put out in front of a Class 4, 6, 7 or 8??

 

[Minilad]

I take it your heart has sank as many times as mine has when you have been following a freight for miles and then see that the goods loop at Hatton is empty?

Oh I have followed freights all the way from Oxford to St Andrews in the past.
And who gets it in the neck off the punters, yep we do.
Oh well no point worrying about it just claim the overtime

 

[GB]

Surely a Class 1 should be put out in front of a Class 4, 6, 7 or 8??

I'd say it depends on the circumstances. A class 1 or 2 that has multiple stations stops can and does put time into a class 4. Stick the class 4 out in front on greens and it should achieve higher average speeds and the passenger trains shouldn't see it. But as I say, this depends on each situation.

Then there is the politics. Why should an on time freight get regulated for a passenger service that is running a few minutes late. When a feight is a few minutes down it gets put away at every location possible which then snow balls the delay. A small delay of 5 minutes on a freight can eventually add up to an hour once it reaches its destination.

 

[Ostrich]

I'd say it depends on the circumstances. A class 1 or 2 that has multiple stations stops can and does put time into a class 4. Stick the class 4 out in front on greens and it should achieve higher average speeds and the passenger trains shouldn't see it. But as I say, this depends on each situation.
.

Interesting, GB - and I also take on board The Planner's earlier post about regulation. But I guess what intrigued me in this instance was that the Freightliner started to get under way in the loop as the Chiltern unit I was on ground to a halt on the main.

It looked a fully-loaded container train; nevertheless I thought it accelerated away quite smartly. My Chiltern unit was at a stand for only around 2-3 minutes, I'd reckon, before receiving a yellow. But once we were underway, it was a really painful crawl through to Solihull. That Freighliner wasn't exactly making a lot of headway ...... we ran under double yellows but were soon down to single yellows, and that compounded the lost time.

I'm not a good judge of speed, but say 30 - 40 mph maximum? You guys in the driving seat will know better than me!

Which I guess was why I raised the query. I don't know what the maximum practical line speed for a fully-laden Freightliner would be between Hatton and Tyseley, but I just felt the Chiltern unit would have comfortably shown the Liner a clean pair of heels - with minimum delay to both trains.

Thanks for all your replies - interesting reading your various viewpoints.

 

[Rugd1022]

Part of the problem with this stretch of line Ostrich, is that the resignalling has actually made things worse during a particularly busy spell. The signals are much closer together than they were under the late 60s MAS scheme, hence when it's busy you're constantly chasing yellows.

Working our 6M22 job north from Oxford we usually get a good run until we hit Warwick then it's double and single yellows all the way to Bordersley. Such is life!

You're about right with the 30-40mph estimate, you can just about keep the momentum up. Given a clear road, a liner can do 75mph from Hatton onwards

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sure if it was Virgin they'd have been let through first. There's been occasions where two or three local trains running to time have all been held at Stockport to allow one late running Virgin service that's still 5-10 miles away through first.

Relating to the Chiltern/freight incident it could be partly how close the signalling points are together. If they are far apart it takes longer for the freight to clear one section.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Its very rare our stoppers leave on time from stoke it gets ridiculous sometimes

 

[Lampshade]

On the Styal/Manchester Airport line freight is given priority over the stoppers but held before Heald Green to let the TPE pass.

 

[taxidave]

I was returning from Leeds to Cheltenham last Wednesday and we were on time right through to New Street, but when we got to Barnt Green we slowed right down and crawled the whole way back to Cheltenham behind a freight train which had been allowed out in front of us and so a forty minute journey took 60 minutes.
When I asked at Cheltenham what the problem was I was told that they had let the freight out in front of us and as it was too long to go into a passing loop we had to stay behind it.:roll:

 

[ANorthernGuard]

On the Styal/Manchester Airport line freight is given priority over the stoppers but held before Heald Green to let the TPE pass.

Usually tpe run express and would be held up as we have 5 Stops and would hold up the freight.

 

[Bittern]

I'm more interested in this Freightliner loco's number...