A question on signalling history at Balham

[mike57]

On the face of it a fairly simple question, when was the last mechanical signalling removed from Balham? Certainly growing up in the area in the early 60s it appeared to be all coloured lights, but were there any bits that were still mechanical.

The reason for the question, we have a picture in a local history group which is claims to be from 1951, but shows mechanical signals, is this date feasible?

Here is a snip


For context the picture was taken from roughly here:

Image is a current one from Google maps

So can anyone offer any thoughts on dates for the removal of the last mechanical signals here please.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Balham's box that most people will recognise, in the fork of the Streatham Hill/Streatham Common lines was opened on 12th October 1952 with the (then) new mini lever Westinghouse L frame panel and associated colour lights. This was part of the re-signalling that saw similar new boxes opened such as Victoria Central, Clapham B, Streatham Gloucester Road Jn etc. Balham box replaced two older mechanical boxes, 'Balham Junction' and 'Wandsworth Common' both of 1895 vintage.
Check out a very useful web page at:

www.wbsframe

Comes highly recommended for those interested specifically in Westinghouse fitted boxes.

 

[mike57]

was opened on 12th October 1952

OK thanks, so a 1951 date is right at the end of the range but feasible. Currently we have the earliest date as 1929 ish as overhead catenary has gone and this gives a late date of October 1952.

Also a problem with the link, but this seems to work: https://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/index.htm

 

[Big Jumby 74]

so a 1951 date is right at the end of the range but feasible

Definitely. The old mech signalling would have been in use and operational until close of service on 11th October I would have thought, with all hands to the pumps to effect the switch over ready to open the new box(es) the next day, albeit everything will have been in place and ready to go. It's possible some of the old semaphore arms etc may have remained in situ for a while longer until they could be safely removed, with instructions issued to all that they were to be ignored from 12th onwards?
As an aside, some of the old overhead equipment was still in place as late as the early 1980's, one piece being the OH line gantry that spanned all four Central lines and the four SW main lines at the North end of Clapham Junction station, effectively forming a visual 'bridge' between Clapham A & B boxes.

 

[30907]

OK thanks, so a 1951 date is right at the end of the range but feasible. Currently we have the earliest date as 1929 ish as overhead catenary has gone and this gives a late date of October 1952.

Also a problem with the link, but this seems to work: https://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/index.htm

If the photo shows anything of the station, that may provide a clue: the Local lines had wooden side platforms and the through lines a wooden island platform at this time. According to Moody, Southern Electric, work began in 1949 on rebuilding the Through platform in concrete and building a retaining wall on the Down side so that the present Local line island platform could be constructed

 

[John Webb]

Definitely. The old mech signalling would have been in use and operational until close of service on 11th October I would have thought, with all hands to the pumps to effect the switch over ready to open the new box(es) the next day, albeit everything will have been in place and ready to go. It's possible some of the old semaphore arms etc may have remained in situ for a while longer until they could be safely removed, with instructions issued to all that they were to be ignored from 12th onwards?......

As far as I am aware, if a mechanical signal was out of use, the arm had to be marked with a cross in 'X' form. I suspect that if you were up a gantry to put 'X's on disused arms it was probably almost as easy to take the arms off the signals! Looking at BTF films of signalling changes in the 1950s/60s it seems there was wholesale removal of old equipment at the changeover.

 

[Gloster]

Definitely. The old mech signalling would have been in use and operational until close of service on 11th October I would have thought, with all hands to the pumps to effect the switch over ready to open the new box(es) the next day, albeit everything will have been in place and ready to go. It's possible some of the old semaphore arms etc may have remained in situ for a while longer until they could be safely removed, with instructions issued to all that they were to be ignored from 12th onwards?
As an aside, some of the old overhead equipment was still in place as late as the early 1980's, one piece being the OH line gantry that spanned all four Central lines and the four SW main lines at the North end of Clapham Junction station, effectively forming a visual 'bridge' between Clapham A & B boxes.

The gantries, posts, etc. might well have remained in place for a while longer, but the signal arms would almost certainly have been removed (brutally, if necessary). If it was absolutely unavoidable to leave an arm in place, then a large white X would have been put on the front.

As the box at Balham was not replaced until October 1952, it is likely that no major work had yet taken place if the photo was taken in 1951. It looks as though the gantries were replaced by straightforward colour lights on posts.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

As far as I am aware, if a mechanical signal was out of use, the arm had to be marked with a cross in 'X' form

The gantries, posts, etc. might well have remained in place for a while longer, but the signal arms would almost certainly have been removed (brutally, if necessary). If it was absolutely unavoidable to leave an arm in place, then a large white X would have been put on the front.

Thank you both. You are of course quite correct - my old brain was thinking about hoods (put over unused/non commissioned colour light sig heads) which obviously wasn't the case with semaphore arms!

One of my former colleagues at an adjacent box to the one in question, was there in '52 (the adjacent box) at the time of changeover as I recall, but is now long departed as you would expect by now. Wish I'd spoken with him more than I did, but one was only a mere youth of a sig lad at the time, so didn't like to ask too many questions unrelated to what was at the time 'the here and now'.

OT to a degree, but I believe several of the old OH line gantries were re used in later years, in addition to that to which I refer above, there was (is) another in Clapham Yard, near to where the old shunters cabin/yard panel once stood. Can't be certain, but it might be one of the old OH gantries, as opposed to a more recent newbie?

 

[Taunton]

The well-known London to Brighton in 4 minutes film, by the BBC, was first shown in 1953, and probably shot not long beforehand. It shows almost wholly semaphore signalling still on the line in the London suburban area, all the way from Battersea to Coulsdon. Film is on Youtube is here :

 

[mike57]

The well-known London to Brighton in 4 minutes film, by the BBC, was first shown in 1953

Ill watch that again tonight, and look at the signalling, I bet that gantry will there. Thanks for reminding me about it.

 

[4COR]

It's here I think (at 1:09). Interestingly, though I suspect this is just an illusion, your picture above almost looks like the arms shown are subsidiaries whereas this screencap shows only the main signals - presumably there aren't two arms (with one off the top of the frame)?



It's a great video that though - there is also a right mix of signals south of Clapham - two lower quadrant arms at Wandsworth Common, followed immediately by a pair of upper quadrant arms that are on the cess side of what is now the up Brighton fast (due to track curvature I guess). Another lower quadrant visible on what is now the up Brighton slow on the approach to Balham Junction - this seemingly random mix repeats itself all the way through to Croydon.

 

[Gloster]

There seems to be a touch of confusion over the date of the film: to my mind it is possible that it was made in 1952, but first shown in 1953. The resignalling took place in October 1952, but it is possible that the filming took place earlier in the year to take advantage of better light conditions. It is possible that preliminary or stage works had already reduced the number of arms on the gantry, but not yet rendered all semaphore signals redundant.

 

[MarkyT]

Thank you both. You are of course quite correct - my old brain was thinking about hoods (put over unused/non commissioned colour light sig heads) which obviously wasn't the case with semaphore arms!

The hoods or bags put over OOU colour lights are also supposed to have a white cross design on them. I think the intention is to indicate to crew the signal is deliberately out of use, not just unintentionally extinguished or otherwise obscured for some reason.

It's here I think (at 1:09). Interestingly, though I suspect this is just an illusion, your picture above almost looks like the arms shown are subsidiaries whereas this screencap shows only the main signals - presumably there aren't two arms (with one off the top of the frame)?

View attachment 138165

I reckon there are smaller arms in that image below the main arms, but they're blurred by the high-speed motion of the film. Note there are indistinct masses just below the main arms that are probably the spectacles and lamps of the subsidiaries.

 

[Railsigns]

Here's a link to a c.1950 signalling diagram of Balham on The Signal Box website:

https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagram.php?id= 543

 

[Taunton]

There seem to be even some lower quadrant signals still in service there on the main line. Looks like the suburban area, from the old LBSCR overhead days and before, had never been resignalled, while the 4-aspect was installed south of Coulsdon, probably when the line was electrified on to Brighton in the 1930s.

 

[MarkyT]

Here's a link to a c.1950 signalling diagram of Balham on The Signal Box website:

https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagram.php?id= 543

Interesting. Would suggest the signals in the original image were Nos. 4 and 10, but there are no smaller subsidiary arms below them in the diagram. The mystery deepens!

 

[4COR]

Interesting. Would suggest the signals in the original image were Nos. 4 and 10, but there are no smaller subsidiary arms below them in the diagram. The mystery deepens!

I did wonder if it's just an illusion- given the signalling diagram doesn't show them it may well be. (I can't really see the need for them unless they were calling on signals, but not sure Balham would have needed them on the downs?)

 

[Railsigns]

Interesting. Would suggest the signals in the original image were Nos. 4 and 10, but there are no smaller subsidiary arms below them in the diagram. The mystery deepens!

I think the objects visible below the main arms are the weight bars.

 

[mike57]

I think the objects visible below the main arms are the weight bars.

I've back to original image and I dont think they are signal arms, they are probably weights, but the image quality isn't good enough to be sure but based on other info thats the obvious choice.

 

[MarkyT]

I think the objects visible below the main arms are the weight bars.

I've back to original image and I dont think they are signal arms, they are probably weights, but the image quality isn't good enough to be sure but based on other info thats the obvious choice.

I'm inclined to agree. From the signal layout diagram, there's little point in having subsidiary arms on those signals. There are no diverging shunt routes ahead of the gantry and permissive call-ons into the platform make no sense as it's not somewhere joining of trains would be likely to take place routinely.