a quick concrete sleeper question...

[Cowley]

Evening folks.
A friend asked me this actually.
He was wondering why the former Southern region didn't use concrete sleepers when Exmouth Junction concrete works were turning out so many other prefabricated things such as footbridges, lamp posts, fencing etc?
I thought that it was possibly because concrete sleepers started being used when continuous welded rail started to become the norm and that the sleepers used were of a far higher quality concrete than could be produced at the EJCW? Although I'm really not sure hence asking here.
Any advice gratefully received.

 

[John Webb]

Most timber for sleepers was imported, so when WW2 affected the import of timber, the Building Research Station at Garston, north of Watford, was involved in a major investigation and research into concrete sleepers from 1942 onwards. The early designs tended to crack when used next to rail joints, and it was only the spread of welded track after WW2 that encouraged the widespread use of concrete sleepers as the rail joints were eliminated.
I have no information if the Exmouth works was involved in the early development of concrete sleepers.

 

[swt_passenger]

Given the reputation for rubbish off the local beaches being used at Exmouth Jn works it’s probably good they didn’t make sleepers...

 

[Cowley]

Given the reputation for rubbish off the local beaches being used at Exmouth Jn works it’s probably good they didn’t make sleepers...

It's funny to think that you'd now get into trouble for taking pebbles away from Budleigh beach...

 

[Cowley]

Most timber for sleepers was imported, so when WW2 affected the import of timber, the Building Research Station at Garston, north of Watford, was involved in a major investigation and research into concrete sleepers from 1942 onwards. The early designs tended to crack when used next to rail joints, and it was only the spread of welded track after WW2 that encouraged the widespread use of concrete sleepers as the rail joints were eliminated.
I have no information if the Exmouth works was involved in the early development of concrete sleepers.

That's what I'd wondered too John. Thanks for that.

 

[yorksrob]

DOW-MAC and COSTAIN were very notable on the Southern in my day

 

[Tim M]

The future is plastic: http://www.sicut.co.uk/projects/ecotrax-railway-sleepers/mainline-sleeper/

 

[Ploughman]

There was plenty of jointed track around the country with BH Concrete sleepers.
We are just uplifting some on the NYMR currently.

 

[HOOVER29]

The future is plastic: http://www.sicut.co.uk/projects/ecotrax-railway-sleepers/mainline-sleeper/

What a brilliant idea (if it works)

 

[DarloRich]

The future is plastic: http://www.sicut.co.uk/projects/ecotrax-railway-sleepers/mainline-sleeper/

What a brilliant idea (if it works)

no it isn't - at least not in the short term. They might replace wood in due course but not imminently.

Evening folks.
A friend asked me this actually.
He was wondering why the former Southern region didn't use concrete sleepers when Exmouth Junction concrete works were turning out so many other prefabricated things such as footbridges, lamp posts, fencing etc?
I thought that it was possibly because concrete sleepers started being used when continuous welded rail started to become the norm and that the sleepers used were of a far higher quality concrete than could be produced at the EJCW? Although I'm really not sure hence asking here.
Any advice gratefully received.

I suspect it is a combination of period in time, technology and quality of concrete. There is an awful lot of science involved in making a concrete sleeper to the required tolerances. Your recipe has to be right as does your rebar. It isn't just a case of a bag of ready mix

 

[John Webb]

..........I suspect it is a combination of period in time, technology and quality of concrete. There is an awful lot of science involved in making a concrete sleeper to the required tolerances. Your recipe has to be right as does your rebar. It isn't just a case of a bag of ready mix

Quite! Hence the involvement of the Building Research Station in 1942; it gets quite a significant mention in their 1971 book when it speaks guardedly about the work they did 1939-45.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Many years back I saw somewhere -- I think it was the now lifted siding on the down side east of Norbiton station -- some track using concrete sleepers of a type that were two blocks joined by a metal bar. I imagine that these were used only for sidings.

I also saw some concrete sleepers on the Bluebell Railway that were fitted with chairs for bull-head rails. That was quite a surprise, as I thought that they were used only with flat-bottom rails.

 

[Ploughman]

Many years back I saw somewhere -- I think it was the now lifted siding on the down side east of Norbiton station -- some track using concrete sleepers of a type that were two blocks joined by a metal bar. I imagine that these were used only for sidings.

I also saw some concrete sleepers on the Bluebell Railway that were fitted with chairs for bull-head rails. That was quite a surprise, as I thought that they were used only with flat-bottom rails.

Modern versions of the Twin block sleeper are in use on TGV lines in France and on HS1.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I suspect it is a combination of period in time, technology and quality of concrete. There is an awful lot of science involved in making a concrete sleeper to the required tolerances. Your recipe has to be right as does your rebar. It isn't just a case of a bag of ready mix

Exactly but I am biased as my 2nd degree is in Material Science and Engineering and spent most of my working life in this endeavor. Same goes for plastics, composites and metals btw.

 

[Cowley]

I've been having a full internet/phone/EE vs Vodafone meltdown today (I'd quite like to introduce a concrete sleeper from a great height onto the phone actually).
But thanks for the above interesting replies.

 

[Dstock7080]

no it isn't - at least not in the short term. They might replace wood in due course but not imminently.

LU have piles of these new composite sleepers at Lillie Bridge track formation plant, destined for points and crossings I understand.

 

[DarloRich]

LU have piles of these new composite sleepers at Lillie Bridge track formation plant, destined for points and crossings I understand.

Have they been certified for the big railway yet?

 

[Signal Head]

There's a lot of information, with pictures, on sleeper development here:
http://www.mmrs.co.uk/technical-articles/modern-permanent-way/

Specifically information about the various types of concrete sleepers can be found in part 2 onwards.

 

[theageofthetra]

Quite! Hence the involvement of the Building Research Station in 1942; it gets quite a significant mention in their 1971 book when it speaks guardedly about the work they did 1939-45.

Did they make those concrete barges used around the D Day landings?

 

[mcmad]

no it isn't - at least not in the short term. They might replace wood in due course but not imminently.

Might be sooner than you think since softwood sleepers are being phased out due to creosote being banned.

 

[DarloRich]

Might be sooner than you think since softwood sleepers are being phased out due to creosote being banned.

i thought sleepers were hardwood. They haven't been creosoted for several years.

 

[John Webb]

Did they make those concrete barges used around the D Day landings?

The 1971 history book doesn't give a mention of any involvement in this area. They may have offered advice on the concrete to be used, they wouldn't have built them - too far inland for a start! And that wasn't how the Building Research Station worked anyway; they passed on their findings for others to use. They still do as "BRE Ltd.", having been taken out of the Civil Service in 1997. (I had worked there up until that point but left as numbers were being cut back.)

 

[furnessvale]

i thought sleepers were hardwood. They haven't been creosoted for several years.

I should imagine that softwood is still used for secondary lines and sidings where CWR is not used. It could well be that plastic will be initially suitable to replace softwood but that further work is required before hardwood can be replaced.

 

[hwl]

Did they make those concrete barges used around the D Day landings?

The actual building was done many firms including by Balfour Beatty, Mowlem, Nuttall, Costain, Laing, Bovis, McAlpine, Taylor Woodrow, Wates and what become Carillion

 

[AndrewE]

The actual building was done many firms including by Balfour Beatty, Mowlem, Nuttall, Costain, Laing, Bovis, McAlpine, Taylor Woodrow, Wates and what become Carillion

...but probably not at places that didn't have a canal or a navigable river to float them down! There were quite a few boat/shipyards around Northwich and higher up the Weaver and the Dane and I thought some of the VIC puffers were built there, but I can't find confirmation now.
Reminds me of the last few chapters of "Riddle of the Sands."

 

[edwin_m]

I should imagine that softwood is still used for secondary lines and sidings where CWR is not used. It could well be that plastic will be initially suitable to replace softwood but that further work is required before hardwood can be replaced.

I don't think new timber sleepers are used anywhere except in replacement of existing ones and perhaps for some specialised situations. Modern switches and crossings are normally on concrete and steel is usually used for sleepers on secondary routes.

 

[mcmad]

the majority of bullhead track is on softwood sleepers, vast areas of which still exist in the more rural parts of Scotland, Wales, East Anglia and Western Routes.

 

[edwin_m]

I was referring to new sleepers and have revised the post to clarify.

 

[Mugby]

the majority of bullhead track is on softwood sleepers, vast areas of which still exist in the more rural parts of Scotland, Wales, East Anglia and Western Routes.

Quite true. The majority of any plain line track on wooden sleepers, not just bullhead, is softwood. The only exceptions are locations where CWR needs to be on wooden sleepers due to local conditions or over bridges (to save weight) in which case hardwood is used.

The reason hardwood isn't used in plain like is because it's considerably more expensive that softwood. Under S&C is a different matter where mostly hardwood timbers were used to provide better resistance to lateral pressures.

I didn't know that creosote is now banned but in my time on the P/Way, softwood sleepers were generally expected to have a lifespan of about twenty years.

 

[Tim M]

A couple of comments from the Ffestiniog Railways Infrastructure Manager (he previously held a senior position on London Underground permanent way) regarding plastic sleepers. Note the comments about use by London Underground:
—————
Price is volume dependent. For us (the FR) it is still cheaper than Ekki, nobody uses jarrah nowadays. Life expectancy in lab tests achieved 100yrs simulated loading before the fastenings failed. The beauty is that the sleeper can be returned to the makers ground down and reformed to make another sleeper. We send back all our off cuts and swarf to go back in the mix.

Not the same composition as used on garden furniture etc. [in response to another comment]. These have passed the stringent fire testing regime imposed for anything used Underground following the tragic Kings Cross fire in the 1980’s.

We have now used plastic sleepers in several locations for both plain track and point-work.
—————
Seeing the condition of some of the wooden sleepers that came out of the recent work at Victoria/Battersea Park makes you wonder if spot renewals using plastic would be a way forward and much cheaper than renewal of a complete turnout with concrete sleepers. Lasting at least 100 years is a bit better than 40 years.