Abellio Greater: potential timetable improvements, additional rolling stock & cascades?

[Sam 76]

Moderator note: Split from

Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

Does anyone know if the 755s have been used on any other routes out of Liverpool Street yet? I.e. Southend, Southminster, Braintree, Walton? I know they were tested on Clacton line but not sure if they were ever tested - or even used in service - on the other lines I mention?

www.railforums.co.uk

Nothing to do with COVID. They just didn't order enough 745/0s. It was obvious that 10 sets wasn't enough when 10 sets are required in service to operate half hourly GEML timetable.

Any chance of a couple more being ordered ?

 

[trebor79]

Any chance of a couple more being ordered ?

Zero I would have thought, unless someone else orders a batch.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Zero I would have thought, unless someone else orders a batch.

Yes Zero, the best we can hope for is a batch of 5 intercity trains (of misc manufacturer) in 5 years time when they find they want to refurb existing plus increase timetable but even that's unlikely, more likely use the Stansted express and order a new fleet for that

 

[TheWalrus]

Yes Zero, the best we can hope for is a batch of 5 intercity trains (of misc manufacturer) in 5 years time when they find they want to refurb existing plus increase timetable but even that's unlikely, more likely use the Stansted express and order a new fleet for that

I wonder if Heathrow Express was withdrawn, could the 387s kitted out for airport traffic be transferred to Stansted Express?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Well, Heathrow Express isn’t going to be withdrawn (it makes too much money for HAL) so the 387 sets won’t be available any time soon. GA is going to have to make do with what it has already got.

 

[dk1]

Zero I would have thought, unless someone else orders a batch.

There have been rumours of extra vehicles to make the 755/3s up to 4-cars but nothing has come of it. The 745/1s are having tables fitted so they are more suited to Norwich services. Transferring more 720s to the StanEx is the best we can expect really.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There have been rumours of extra vehicles to make the 755/3s up to 4-cars but nothing has come of it. The 745/1s are having tables fitted so they are more suited to Norwich services. Transferring more 720s to the StanEx is the best we can expect really.

And what of the Sudbury line, if so?

 

[dk1]

And what of the Sudbury line, if so?

Maybe they’d have to leave a few as 3-car. Apart from that I don’t know.

 

[wagnaga]

Maybe they’d have to leave a few as 3-car. Apart from that I don’t know.

Presumably they'd have a few 3's for Sudbury and also the triple traction unit on Norwich to Liverpool Street.

It would be a clear success if this was needed but how expensive is it giving I presume it also changes the engine setup. Would it be a worthwhile order? Presumably none of the 4s could go to 5s?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Presumably they'd have a few 3's for Sudbury and also the triple traction unit on Norwich to Liverpool Street.

It would be a clear success if this was needed but how expensive is it giving I presume it also changes the engine setup. Would it be a worthwhile order? Presumably none of the 4s could go to 5s?

I'm guessing the triple traction will disappear once the tables are fitted as Stansted express will use the spare 720s

 

[saismee]

Rather than a microfleet or cascade (replacing 379 for 745 for 387 seems a bit pointless), an ideal case could maybe be some 720s seeing a 10-coach refurbishment designed for Stansted usage with the extra coach space being used for luggage racks (distributed throughout the train, of course).

 

[TheWalrus]

Well, Heathrow Express isn’t going to be withdrawn (it makes too much money for HAL) so the 387 sets won’t be available any time soon. GA is going to have to make do with what it has already got.

I’m speculating a what-if scenario and if the HEX 387s would be suitable for Stansted as they are for another airport service. There is another thread about HEX passenger numbers declining so maybe it isn’t as profitable as it once was? However as has been stated on this thread, in the short to medium term GA will probably need to make do with the rolling stock available.

The only other thing to do would be to reduce frequency. Could Stansted Express go down to every 20 or 30 minutes?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I’m speculating a what-if scenario and if the HEX 387s would be suitable for Stansted as they are for another airport service. There is another thread about HEX passenger numbers declining so maybe it isn’t as profitable as it once was? However as has been stated on this thread, in the short to medium term GA will probably need to make do with the rolling stock available.

The only other thing to do would be to reduce frequency. Could Stansted Express go down to every 20 or 30 minutes?

Stansted will remain at the current frequency as it is well used and the airport owners pushed for the 4 tph service.

 

[dk1]

The only other thing to do would be to reduce frequency. Could Stansted Express go down to every 20 or 30 minutes?

Stansted is absolutely booming as is the GA train service. No chance of any reduction in service levels/frequency. It’s all about growth at this Essex airport.

 

[Sam 76]

Stansted will remain at the current frequency as it is well used and the airport owners pushed for the 4 tph service.

Stansted Express was really busy when I used it in July. Both too and from the airport. Trains were lovely too.

Quite the change from my regular Northern experience to Manchester Airport but that’s for another thread

 

[Clarence Yard]

I’m speculating a what-if scenario and if the HEX 387s would be suitable for Stansted as they are for another airport service. There is another thread about HEX passenger numbers declining so maybe it isn’t as profitable as it once was? However as has been stated on this thread, in the short to medium term GA will probably need to make do with the rolling stock available.

The only other thing to do would be to reduce frequency. Could Stansted Express go down to every 20 or 30 minutes?

The value of Heathrow Express to HAL isn’t just in operating profit, its physical assets are on the Airport RAB so they are covered by charges to airlines, not through the operating profit/loss of the TOC. So the service operation itself has to make a thumping loss for HAL ever wanting to quit!

Stansted Airport don’t have this magic money tree arrangement but business is booming for Stansted Express and GA need the existing frequency of service with enough capacity on each service to cater for the demand. The problem now is how to cater for the growing demand from the Cambridge direction.

 

[Magdalia]

The only other thing to do would be to reduce frequency. Could Stansted Express go down to every 20 or 30 minutes?

Look at the station usage numbers published by ORR a few weeks ago.

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/lvscie3h/station-usage-2023-24-statistical-release.pdf

Estimates of station usage April 2023 to March 2024

Of all journeys involving a station outside London, Liverpool Street-Stansted Airport is top of the pile with almost 6 million journeys. Overall it is number 5 only beaten by 4 Elizabeth Line journeys.

The problem now is how to cater for the growing demand from the Cambridge direction.

Absolutely. North of the Stansted triangle Cambridge-Stansted Airport is now a bigger flow than Audley End or Cambridge-Liverpool Street.

 

[chubs]

Still holding out hope for Norwich - Cambridge - Stansted going half hourly and the few missing services that don't do the full journey to manage it somehow.

I've done the route as a passenger for years and every time it gets busier, so glad the days of having to change at Ely onto a 2 car XC 170 are over.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Still holding out hope for Norwich - Cambridge - Stansted going half hourly and the few missing services that don't do the full journey to manage it somehow.

I've done the route as a passenger for years and every time it gets busier, so glad the days of having to change at Ely onto a 2 car XC 170 are over.

It'll be a few years yet before that happens, not just Ely area improvement but paths from Cambridge to Stansted are a premium too

 

[RailWonderer]

Still holding out hope for Norwich - Cambridge - Stansted going half hourly and the few missing services that don't do the full journey to manage it somehow.

I've done the route as a passenger for years and every time it gets busier, so glad the days of having to change at Ely onto a 2 car XC 170 are over.

With a triple 755 and some days even another double for London services, will there even be enough 755s to operate half hourly Norwich - Stansted? The old timetable used to diagram 28/38 755s, then the extension to Stansted on the Norwich Cambridge plus the triple to Liverpool St sent that up to around 32/38, now with another triple on the IC plus an extra regional, you're stretching the fleet.

Numbers are estimates only, someone else can give something a bit more accurate.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

With a triple 755 and some days even another double for London services, will there even be enough 755s to operate half hourly Norwich - Stansted? The old timetable used to diagram 28/38 755s, then the extension to Stansted on the Norwich Cambridge plus the triple to Liverpool St sent that up to around 32/38, now with another triple on the IC plus an extra regional, you're stretching the fleet.

Numbers are estimates only, someone else can give something a bit more accurate.

The triple traction could be replaced with 745/1 which I suggest is likely once tables are fitted and 720s on Stansted express, not ideal but is where we find ourselves. The infrastructure issue is more insurmountable

 

[Russel]

If there is spare 720s and not enough 745s, then moving 720s to Stan Express with additional luggage space to free up 745s to work Norwich service is a no brainer?

 

[chubs]

The triple traction could be replaced with 745/1 which I suggest is likely once tables are fitted and 720s on Stansted express, not ideal but is where we find ourselves. The infrastructure issue is more insurmountable

They could replace the triple set with a 745/1 now but from other posts on here they struggled with having enough. The triple set is just a fudge, it cant go on like that forever.

Really the 745/1 issue needs sorting too - GA's intercity offering is completely devalued as first class and the buffet are a lottery and seat reservations went out the window. You need consistency.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

They could replace the triple set with a 745/1 now but from other posts on here they struggled with having enough. The triple set is just a fudge, it cant go on like that forever.

Really the 745/1 issue needs sorting too - GA's intercity offering is completely devalued as first class and the buffet are a lottery and seat reservations went out the window. You need consistency.

Totally agree but careful what you wish for, I'm getting the feeling it will be devalued too much and when 745s are refurbished, they will go all standard class

 

[RailWonderer]

Really the 745/1 issue needs sorting too - GA's intercity offering is completely devalued as first class and the buffet are a lottery and seat reservations went out the window. You need consistency.

It's not a lottery as GA put 745/1s and 755s on specific diagrams so if you book first in advance you can see which services have it and which don't (besides in the rare case of a last minute substitution). Anybody buying walk ups is in the dark unless at a ticket office they might be told if the service has first or not. In any case GA reduce the amount of refunding they have to provide by making travellers aware of which services are not booked to have first in advance. It's not ideal but when the order was placed the bid team didn't think about this issue.

 

[chubs]

It's not a lottery as GA put 745/1s and 755s on specific diagrams so if you book first in advance you can see which services have it and which don't (besides in the rare case of a last minute substitution). Anybody buying walk ups is in the dark unless at a ticket office they might be told if the service has first or not. In any case GA reduce the amount of refunding they have to provide by making travellers aware of which services are not booked to have first in advance. It's not ideal but when the order was placed the bid team didn't think about this issue.

I disagree, whenever I travel now there's either an announcement apologising for lack of first class and buffet (and it's common to hear people asking the guard how to get the refund) or that they're pleased to inform us there is first class and a buffet on this service. I maintain the product needs to be consistent.

Agree with you they didn't order enough 745/0's but then who knows how things would have gone if the timetable recast had happened as intended.

 

[chubs]

Totally agree but careful what you wish for, I'm getting the feeling it will be devalued too much and when 745s are refurbished, they will go all standard class

745/755 refurbishment has to be 10 years down the line minimum, they need to figure out what their fix is before then. They still look really good and offer an excellent ride.

I'm not averse to the buffet coming out and really if the demand for 1st just isn't there post covid that coming out too.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

745/755 refurbishment has to be 10 years down the line minimum, they need to figure out what their fix is before then. They still look really good and offer an excellent ride.

I'm not averse to the buffet coming out and really if the demand for 1st just isn't there post covid that coming out too.

It's a while down the line, but don't forget they're now 5 years old already so 5 to 10 years sounds about right.
Demand for first won't be there as the product is inconsistent, the buffet being the same, I travel into work once a week and I'd be tempted into buying breakfast but it's not consistently there and you can't get a good fry up anyway. More likely to go in Costa and get a bacon roll as it's always there.

 

[dk1]

It's a while down the line, but don't forget they're now 5 years old already so 5 to 10 years sounds about right.
Demand for first won't be there as the product is inconsistent, the buffet being the same, I travel into work once a week and I'd be tempted into buying breakfast but it's not consistently there and you can't get a good fry up anyway. More likely to go in Costa and get a bacon roll as it's always there.

Ironically recent sales from catering are higher than at anytime since 2017.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Ironically recent sales from catering are higher than at anytime since 2017.

Surprises me but must be doing something right then