Abortive HST Project

[O L Leigh]

I'm sure I didn't imagine it, but I can't seem to find any details of it online. Can anyone help?

If my memory serves me right, the idea was first mooted in the mid-90's under Intercity. The plan was to hack the cross-country HSTs in half with just one power car and between 4 and 5 trailers with a control vehicle of some sort (though not a Mk3 DVT as you might imagine). I'm sure that some artists impressions even made it into the railway press at the time which suggested some sort of Class 89-esque cab would be used.

Any ideas...? I'm definately not getting it mixed up with the later Virgin Challenger proposal before anyone suggests it. This definately pre-dates privatisation.

O L Leigh

 

[Bald Rick]

I think you're right, although it was mooted in the late 80s as it was going to be the HSTs released by the ECML electrification. It was to be 1+5, and the idea was to use them on secondary routes, such as Trans Pennine and Waterloo-Exeter. This was overtaken by the Sprinter revoloution and the substantial increase in IC traffic in the late 80s requiring the retention of HSTs for IC routes. (unrelated, but to demonstrate the IC growth, Euston to Manchester only went back to hourly through the day in 1990 I think, having been cut back some years earlier).

I don't remember any artists impressions though, certainly none in the Bald Rick family archive of Modern Railways.

 

[Helvellyn]

If I recall it was planned to rebuild the sets displaced from East Coast services in a 1+5 formation. They would have been formed PC-TRB-TS-TS-TS-DTGS. Due to only having one power car with five trailers they would have been limited to 110mph. If I also recall, they would have used the buffer fitted power cars (with possibly a few more converted). I don't remember seeing any artist's impressions of the rebuilt TGS vehicles, but it would have required quite an extensive rebuild of one end of the vehicle to provide a cab.

 

[HSTEd]

On a somewhat related note, does anyone know why DVTs were never employed on the loco hauled XC formations?
I would have thought it would have simplified locomotive moves at Birmingham NS since the locomotive could be attached to whatever end of the rake was convenient.

 

[starrymarkb]

It's sort of like what DB did when they realised the ICE 1 (14 coaches) was too much for many routes.

Though the half sets were new build rather then conversions.

 

[sprinterguy]

On a somewhat related note, does anyone know why DVTs were never employed on the loco hauled XC formations?
I would have thought it would have simplified locomotive moves at Birmingham NS since the locomotive could be attached to whatever end of the rake was convenient.

The "47/8s" would have required modification to work in push-pull formation with the DVTs, and there were plenty of air-con mark 2 brake vehicles available for the Crosscountry rakes, so the additional expenditure on new rolling stock won't have been deemed worthwhile. Crosscountry had already benefited from the ECML electrification at around the same time by gaining extra HST sets released from the East Coast.

Additionally, on the West Coast in particular Crosscountry services between Birmingham or Manchester and Edinburgh and Glasgow used to be formed of two portions that joined and split at Carstairs in the late eighties and early nineties, where DVTs would have taken up additional space in the formation.

 

[LE Greys]

I always thought it was 1+4 with a possible DVT. It only became 5 coaches when they decided to use 47s (I would have used 50s, but never mind) and then increased to 7 when they needed additional braking power. This was a good thing, because I travelled on quite a few of these trains in Virgin days, and they were usually full.

 

[Waldgrun]

I seem to think that the proposal was for the G.W. Mainline, in order to provide a half hourly shuttle service to Bristol!

 

[jimm]

On a somewhat related note, does anyone know why DVTs were never employed on the loco hauled XC formations?
I would have thought it would have simplified locomotive moves at Birmingham NS since the locomotive could be attached to whatever end of the rake was convenient.

Two points:

a. The TDM push-pull system is notoriously sensitive to constant coupling and uncoupling of locos and often failed as a result of being treated this way, hence locos remained attached to a set of coaches for extended periods. I believe Anglia still operate with the 90s and Mk3s this way now.

b. The loco was attached/detached at different ends of the train on many services at Birmingham, eg the electric coming off a service from Manchester or Glasgow to the West Country was at the south end, the diesel going on to head to Bristol via the CrossCity line through University went on at the north end and vice versa. Time penalty in these cases was quite limited, as you could do the loco moves simultaneously at either end of the train.

 

[jopsuk]

Two points:

a. The TDM push-pull system is notoriously sensitive to constant coupling and uncoupling of locos and often failed as a result of being treated this way, hence locos remained attached to a set of coaches for extended periods. I believe Anglia still operate with the 90s and Mk3s this way now.

is this why they leave the 90 attached on the drags to Great Yarmouth?

 

[ainsworth74]

is this why they leave the 90 attached on the drags to Great Yarmouth?

I believe that's part of it but another factor, I believe, is that it's just easier (quicker) to couple one locomotive to the front of another than do a proper swap.

 

[Helvellyn]

I suppose one option could have been to convert the remaining Mk 2F BSOs to DBSOs and use them on the West Coast Birmingham-Manchester/Glasgow/Edinburgh services. If InterCity had taken the 47/7s (and modified the push-pull equipment to TDM) they could have also had push-pull diesel sets for Manchester/Liverpool-Poole services.

 

[O L Leigh]

I don't remember any artists impressions though, certainly none in the Bald Rick family archive of Modern Railways.

Thanks for looking. I seem to recall that the artist impression was probably printed in Motive Power Monthly (or perhaps it was RAIL).

O L Leigh

 

[starrymarkb]

I remember seeing it in Rail...