Accessible TFW replacement coaches

[Caleb2010]

Just been on to TFW accessible travel helpline!!

Making a journey from Crewe to Porthmadog in September, rail replacement service from Machynlleth to Porthmadog of 2hr 15 mins long!

As I couldn’t be away from an accessible loo for that long and couldn’t negotiate steps up to a coach interior I asked if I could go instead to Blaenau Ffestiniog and have TFW get me an accessible taxi from there to Porthmadog!

Nope! Apparently the coaches used on TFW rail replacement services are fully accessible- including the toilet!

Doubtful of this information I asked the lady on the phone to press ahead with a taxi booking (assuming it was from Blaenau Ffestiniog)

She’s now put in a request for a taxi from Machynlleth! But said it may well be rejected as the coaches are fully accessible.

Before I go off on one I just wondered if TFW did in fact find coaches with fully accessible toilets that could accommodate wheelchairs!

Anyone know, because I’m finding it hard to believe

 

[Bletchleyite]

No coaches have fully accessible toilets. Such a thing simply does not exist. The coach will have a lift to get you on board in your wheelchair, but not an accessible toilet. That or it'll be a low floor service bus with no toilet at all.

Would it make sense for you to refund your ticket, then buy one to Blaenau and use the Lloyds Coaches service bus 3B from Blaenau to Porthmadog? This is likely to be loads quicker and substantially cheaper.

3B - Porthmadog - Blaenau Ffestiniog

Llew Jones Coaches

bustimes.org

On Sundays it's the 1S:

1S - Blaenau Ffestiniog - Caernarfon via Porthmadog, Tremadog

Llew Jones Coaches

bustimes.org

...though no timetable is up for Sept yet, it's only showing for mid August, so it may not work on a Sunday for your trip.

Alternatively the T2 can take you from Bangor to Porthmadog on any day: http://bustimes.org/services/t2-bangor-aberystwyth, though it's twice as long on a bus as via Blaenau (about 1h10).

e.g. Crewe-Blaenau off peak return £37.80, Crewe-Porthmadog off peak return £71.10. The Blaenau-Porthmadog bus fare is likely to be no more than a fiver, so that's a saving of around £25 on your return trip. Unless specifically wanting to do the Coast line (which wouldn't be fun on a bus) it would make sense to go this way, engineering or no!

 

[hexagon789]

Just been on to TFW accessible travel helpline!!

Making a journey from Crewe to Porthmadog in September, rail replacement service from Machynlleth to Porthmadog of 2hr 15 mins long!

As I couldn’t be away from an accessible loo for that long and couldn’t negotiate steps up to a coach interior I asked if I could go instead to Blaenau Ffestiniog and have TFW get me an accessible taxi from there to Porthmadog!

Nope! Apparently the coaches used on TFW rail replacement services are fully accessible- including the toilet!

Doubtful of this information I asked the lady on the phone to press ahead with a taxi booking (assuming it was from Blaenau Ffestiniog)

She’s now put in a request for a taxi from Machynlleth! But said it may well be rejected as the coaches are fully accessible.

Before I go off on one I just wondered if TFW did in fact find coaches with fully accessible toilets that could accommodate wheelchairs!

Anyone know, because I’m finding it hard to believe

Even National Express don't offer accessible toilets on board. They make express note of this on their accessibility page.

Instead they offer rest stops on request to the driver for passengers travelling in wheelchairs.

The coach may be accessible, the toilet facility if provided will not be.

 

[Deafdoggie]

They simply get round this problem by not providing toilets for anyone. Welcome to the wonderful world of railway customer service.

 

[Caleb2010]

Oh, I guessed that one hadn’t been invented, I had visions of a coach with a ramp that was about 12 ft long and no seats because there was access to a universal toilet that took up the width of the vehicle!

I don’t know if my mobility scooter would be acceptable for the bus from Blaenau as although it’s within dimensions for rail travel it is too long for the bay in a Dart/enviro - hence the request for an accessible taxi!

I’ll be interested to see what TFW Come back with.

Thanks for the answers

 

[Deafdoggie]

Oh, I guessed that one hadn’t been invented, I had visions of a coach with a ramp that was about 12 ft long and no seats because there was access to a universal toilet that took up the width of the vehicle!

I don’t know if my mobility scooter would be acceptable for the bus from Blaenau as although it’s within dimensions for rail travel it is too long for the bay in a Dart/enviro - hence the request for an accessible taxi!

I’ll be interested to see what TFW Come back with.

Thanks for the answers

Generally electric powered wheelchairs aren't permitted on bus ramps as the weight makes them tremendously unstable and the last thing anyone wants is someone tipping over backwards. Coach lifts MAY be ok, it depends on weight and dimensions of wheelchair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Generally electric powered wheelchairs aren't permitted on bus ramps as the weight makes them tremendously unstable and the last thing anyone wants is someone tipping over backwards. Coach lifts MAY be ok, it depends on weight and dimensions of wheelchair.

I'd certainly state when booking that it's a scooter and not a wheelchair.

Not permitting electric wheelchairs (which are not the same thing as a scooter) would be an enforceable breach of accessibility regulations, as many disabled people do not have the strength to push a manual chair. So that's down to the bus or coach company to find a way to make it happen.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'd certainly state when booking that it's a scooter and not a wheelchair.

Not permitting electric wheelchairs (which are not the same thing as a scooter) would be an enforceable breach of accessibility regulations, as many disabled people do not have the strength to push a manual chair. So that's down to the bus or coach company to find a way to make it happen.

The only way is level boarding. Which isn't really a reasonable adjustment. And, anyway, would be for the local authorities to solve by raising all kerbs to bus height and ensuring all kerbs were kept free of obstructions. Health & Safety trumps disability I'm afraid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only way is level boarding. Which isn't really a reasonable adjustment. And, anyway, would be for the local authorities to solve by raising all kerbs to bus height and ensuring all kerbs were kept free of obstructions. Health & Safety trumps disability I'm afraid.

Stagecoach's website states that electric wheelchairs (and scooters provided they fit) are permitted on their buses. They also are in London.

This being the case, if there's another bus company that isn't, I wish them (bad) luck in Court.

Meanwhile, here is some official PDF documentation on the matter (ignore Supertram in the path, it's about buses):

https://www.stagecoachbus.com/media-library/files/supertram/flyers/cpt%20scooter%20leaflet.pdf?la=en

 

[Deafdoggie]

Stagecoach's website states that electric wheelchairs are permitted on their buses. They also are in London.

This being the case, if there's another bus company that isn't, I wish them (bad) luck in Court.

There are numerous training videos showing electric wheelchairs tipping backwards going up bus ramps. The advice is always "If it's not safe, don't do it" I can't see a court overruling that. But, if they were to, I'm sure bus companies will happily be tipping people out of wheelchairs all over the place.
There are, of course, many types of electric wheelchairs. Some will doubtless be fine. But who is to know. And who is to take the blame if they aren't and it all goes wrong? You can always justify erring on the side of caution, but never willfully risking it all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are numerous training videos showing electric wheelchairs tipping backwards going up bus ramps. The advice is always "If it's not safe, don't do it" I can't see a court overruling that. But, if they were to, I'm sure bus companies will happily be tipping people out of wheelchairs all over the place.
There are, of course, many types of electric wheelchairs. Some will doubtless be fine. But who is to know. And who is to take the blame if they aren't and it all goes wrong? You can always justify erring on the side of caution, but never willfully risking it all.

Your prejudice is clear when taken against the official DfT and CPT* advice in the leaflet linked above. I'd suggest that failure to follow that advice, unless a specific wheelchair causes a specific problem, is likely to land the driver and bus company in Court, and I hope they lose if so.

* I have no idea what the C stands for, and their website doesn't say either, though PT is Passenger Transport.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Your prejudice is clear when taken against the official DfT and CPT* advice in the leaflet linked above. I'd suggest that failure to follow that advice, unless a specific wheelchair causes a specific problem, is likely to land the driver and bus company in Court, and I hope they lose if so.

* I have no idea what the C stands for, and their website doesn't say either, though PT is Passenger Transport.

CPT is confederation of Passenger Transport.
I've done many disability awareness training sessions. And everytime I ask the company for their stance. Most say "manual wheelchairs fine, electric not." Some say "manual and electric both fine." When I ask for it in writing to give to the drivers to show them its fine to do and theyll be no reprocussions on them, this advice suddenly changes to "manual fine, electric not." I can't train people to do what the company won't do.
However much bodies may want this, no one on the ground is prepared to take the risk. I've been shown insurance documents showing they're only covered for manual wheelchairs. It's a risk people aren't willing to make. All I can do is train within the law (it it's not insured its not legal) and company policy. Noone thinks the situation is ideal but it's the safest option all round. From my point of view, what's more important is training the driver in how to handle the situation. For example, some electric chairs are safe if pushed on from behind to counterbalance it, if a company is insured and there's someone to push it, then that could be OK. But I simply can't train people to take risks or break the law, however prejudiced you think that makes me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope the likes of Doug Paulley pursue this and get it fixed, and wish him the very best of luck with it, as this is a totally unacceptable situation. If the fitted ramps aren't suitable, then different ramps need to be fitted, for example.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I hope the likes of Doug Paulley pursue this and get it fixed, and wish him the very best of luck with it, as this is a totally unacceptable situation. If the fitted ramps aren't suitable, then different ramps need to be fitted, for example.

It's the angle from floor to bus that's the issue generally. Obviously there's a max weight, but that's far less of a problem.
The problem is the basic physics of all the weight being at the back going up a steep ramp. It'll always topple over! There's no quick, easy & cheap fix.
In much the same way the railways solution to having to have toilets for all was to not have toilets at all, bus companies wouldn't have an issue in not running services if they were going to have to spend a fortune on this. They managed to gey accessible buses being law delayed & delayed until all non low floor ones were life expired, so they'll do the same again. The bus industry is on its knees already, another expense will kill it off.

 

[Caleb2010]

Both myself and the scooter weigh below the standard 300 kilos, the only place I have found a problem rail-wise is with SWR who insist on a picture of the scooter and a copy of the owners manual stating the dimensions before they’ll consider issuing a permit for me to travel.

Normally I wouldn’t take it on a bus, there’s more space to manoeuvre around on a train! Though on a recent trip to London when the lifts at both Willesden Junction and Shepherd’s Bush we’re out I was backed onto the middle doors of a double decker! Two prams later we hade effectively blocked the rear of the bus!!

I’ll be on a north and mid wales ranger so can vary my route accordingly but I’d honestly thought TFW would have agreed to me going via Blaenau as the cost of an accessible taxi from there would be cheaper than one from Machynlleth!

It’s strange but when travelling from Brighton to King’s Cross one Easter for the Sleeper (Easter diversion down ECML) southern happily diverted me into Victoria and booked an accessible taxi for me as Thameslink were not running through the core!

TFW don’t seem to have gone to the same passenger assistance school they did!

 

[markymark2000]

Both myself and the scooter weigh below the standard 300 kilos, the only place I have found a problem rail-wise is with SWR who insist on a picture of the scooter and a copy of the owners manual stating the dimensions before they’ll consider issuing a permit for me to travel.

Normally I wouldn’t take it on a bus, there’s more space to manoeuvre around on a train! Though on a recent trip to London when the lifts at both Willesden Junction and Shepherd’s Bush we’re out I was backed onto the middle doors of a double decker! Two prams later we hade effectively blocked the rear of the bus!!

I’ll be on a north and mid wales ranger so can vary my route accordingly but I’d honestly thought TFW would have agreed to me going via Blaenau as the cost of an accessible taxi from there would be cheaper than one from Machynlleth!

My advice is to get the T2 from Mach to Port, not the Rail Rep bus. The T2 is quicker than the Rail Rep service (rail Rep takes 2h 15, T2 takes 1h 30). This is normally ran by a full size service bus, not a small dart.

While TFW will demand wheelchair accessible coaches and both Mach and Port can take the wheelchair lifts, none will have wheelchair accessible toilets. There are disabled/wheelchair toilets at Barmouth in the middle of the route.


TFW do not like providing wheelchair taxis at all because it defeats the object of having wheelchair accessible coaches.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I’ll be on a north and mid wales ranger so can vary my route accordingly but I’d honestly thought TFW would have agreed to me going via Blaenau as the cost of an accessible taxi from there would be cheaper than one from Machynlleth!

This would be the sensible option!

 

[Snow1964]

However much bodies may want this, no one on the ground is prepared to take the risk. I've been shown insurance documents showing they're only covered for manual wheelchairs. It's a risk people aren't willing to make. All I can do is train within the law (it it's not insured its not legal) and company policy. Noone thinks the situation is ideal but it's the safest option all round.

The Insurance historically only ever covered X is a lazy rather than legal argument. If law has been changed and now obligation to carry both, choosing not to insure it is not really legal anymore.

I remember a local case when the law against age discrimination was tightened up about 8 years ago, a local firm advertised for delivery drivers, but said something like must have full driving licence and minimum age 23 because of insurance. They got into trouble over it. Was then changed to Driving licence held for 2 years so must have requested an insurance change

 

[47296lastduff]

I do not see how TfW can say that all their replacement coaches are fully accessible. The ones I see on the North Wales coast all involve climbing a set of steps to reach the seats.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The Insurance historically only ever covered X is a lazy rather than legal argument. If law has been changed and now obligation to carry both, choosing not to insure it is not really legal anymore.

I remember a local case when the law against age discrimination was tightened up about 8 years ago, a local firm advertised for delivery drivers, but said something like must have full driving licence and minimum age 23 because of insurance. They got into trouble over it. Was then changed to Driving licence held for 2 years so must have requested an insurance change

The insurance is based on the vehicle manufactors claims as to what the ramp will safely take. They won't insure what it's not designed for.
You could still argue that having a licence for 2 years is discriminating against 19 & 20 year olds! (Assuming it's a HGV and you need to be 18 to get a licence)
Famously when sex discrimination laws first came in a building site rang the job centre asking for a "lad" to work on the site. They were told they could no longer specify gender. The forman just said "We need a labourer, male or female. Required to strip to waist in summer!"

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do not see how TfW can say that all their replacement coaches are fully accessible. The ones I see on the North Wales coast all involve climbing a set of steps to reach the seats.

They have wheelchair lifts. After legal precedent was set, rail replacement coaches have to be wheelchair accessible, though I seem to recall some sort of timebound derogation if they really can't get any.

 

[Caleb2010]

I can imagine a coach with a lift of some description to get the wheelchair on - stagecoach ones here in north Scotland have them but they’re no good for those with mobility issues who use walking aids, pram pushers and scooter users!

If a lift would raise me to the interior I could board but my scooter would have to be left at Machynlleth as it wouldn’t fit under the coach (so not an option!) and my 66” body wouldn’t fit through the 24” gap between seats or the even smaller doorway into the toilet.

All this has been explained (twice) to TFW assisted travel and no-one can give a definitive answer! One even asked me to spell out the stations involved as they didn’t know where I was talking about!

Now, I get that TFW have to do these upgrade works - something to do with signalling on the Cambrian line, but when a passenger comes up with a viable and cost effective solution which isn’t even considered, I do wonder what the world is coming too!

I can see me arriving in Machynlleth and not being able to progress beyond there! I’ve checked on the various bus sites and my scooter is not small enough for them- so it’s train!

Well- so far!

 

[markymark2000]

I do not see how TfW can say that all their replacement coaches are fully accessible. The ones I see on the North Wales coast all involve climbing a set of steps to reach the seats.

The coast struggles because there is a huge lack of PSVAR vehicles up there so they have no choice but to use exempt vehicles.

The alternative would be paying well over the odds and sourcing vehicles from the likes of Liverpool and Manchester. On one of the last blocks, they were so short, they had Mid Wales Travel, Lloyds and Lakeside so operators from miles away.

On the Coast, there are only around 10 PSVAR coaches. Bearing in mind the driver shortage too reduces that amount of available coaches and a normal coast block needs 15-20 coaches.


On bigger blockades though, companies travel from further and there is much higher compliance.

They have wheelchair lifts. After legal precedent was set, rail replacement coaches have to be wheelchair accessible, though I seem to recall some sort of timebound derogation if they really can't get any.

Exemptions are rife in North Wales.

I can imagine a coach with a lift of some description to get the wheelchair on - stagecoach ones here in north Scotland have them but they’re no good for those with mobility issues who use walking aids, pram pushers and scooter users!

I can't say for certain but last year, they did have small service buses on some of the stopper runs. Closer to the time, we will see exactly what vehicles are on and be able to help you better.

Now, I get that TFW have to do these upgrade works - something to do with signalling on the Cambrian line, but when a passenger comes up with a viable and cost effective solution which isn’t even considered, I do wonder what the world is coming too!

I can see me arriving in Machynlleth and not being able to progress beyond there! I’ve checked on the various bus sites and my scooter is not small enough for them- so it’s train!

Well- so far!

If you get there and there is no suitable transport, TFW have to provide onwards travel but you do have to see from their side too, why provide taxis when they are paying for wheelchair accessible coaches. kind of defeats the object.

As others have said, emohesis needs putting into the fact it's a scooter as if it can't be clamped down in the coach, it can't go on and service buses will depends on the size of course. The general stance seems to be, a class 2 mobility scooter is accepted.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Working in social care with adults with disabilities the only way an electric chair would tip while on a bus ramp would be if a number of issues occured at once these would be the bus not knelling when the ramp is down , the curb climber on the chair being broken and the power wheels losing traction .

The main issue on Certin new buses is that the asile from the front door to the wheel chair space is very narrow and turning a chair can be difficult (first Glasgow's electrics BYD singles )

 

[TUC]

Just been on to TFW accessible travel helpline!!

Making a journey from Crewe to Porthmadog in September, rail replacement service from Machynlleth to Porthmadog of 2hr 15 mins long!

As I couldn’t be away from an accessible loo for that long and couldn’t negotiate steps up to a coach interior I asked if I could go instead to Blaenau Ffestiniog and have TFW get me an accessible taxi from there to Porthmadog!

Nope! Apparently the coaches used on TFW rail replacement services are fully accessible- including the toilet!

Doubtful of this information I asked the lady on the phone to press ahead with a taxi booking (assuming it was from Blaenau Ffestiniog)

She’s now put in a request for a taxi from Machynlleth! But said it may well be rejected as the coaches are fully accessible.

Before I go off on one I just wondered if TFW did in fact find coaches with fully accessible toilets that could accommodate wheelchairs!

Anyone know, because I’m finding it hard to believe

Not quite sure from the OP whether the ticket had been bought before the rail replacement had been announced. If it had, wouldn't it be the TOC's responsibility to make alternative arrangements for a disabled passenger, including ensuring a similar level of toilet availability to that for able bodied passengers?

 

[markymark2000]

Not quite sure from the OP whether the ticket had been bought before the rail replacement had been announced. If it had, wouldn't it be the TOC's responsibility to make alternative arrangements for a disabled passenger, including ensuring a similar level of toilet availability to that for able bodied passengers?

In my experience, many coach drivers lock toilets out of use on Rail Replacement or the coach has no toilet so technically that would be the same level of service.

Not the answer you wanted, I'm sure, but too many bad eggs making a mess of toilets so the toilet only gets unlocked normally in desperate need or if the route has a high average journey time (Barmouth block, most people only short hop, average of around 40 minutes journey time)

 

[TUC]

In my experience, many coach drivers lock toilets out of use on Rail Replacement or the coach has no toilet so technically that would be the same level of service.

Not the answer you wanted, I'm sure, but too many bad eggs making a mess of toilets so the toilet only gets unlocked normally in desperate need or if the route has a high average journey time (Barmouth block, most people only short hop, average of around 40 minutes journey time)

Why would drivers lock toilets out of use? Mess risk or not, passengers have the right to expect toilets if the train the bus replaced would also have had one.

 

[markymark2000]

Why would drivers lock toilets out of use?

Half of the toilets don't work, are full or have no water.

Then you have the general public who are absolute animals sometimes and on occasions drivers have found the walls covered in.... Erm.... Waste.

Then add in normal cleaning and cleaning the public's waste, they'd rather not have the hassle.

 

[Llandudno]

Last time I had the misfortune to use a TfW Rail Replacement (pre-planned) bus returning from Chester to Llandudno Junction late at night, we were turfed off the train at Rhyl around midnight and squeezed into a 16 seater minibus. The type with sliding doors and a couple of narrow steps to clamber in and out.

Fortunately we don’t have any mobility issues (not yet anyway!) and managed to get on and off.

Needless to say there were no TfW staff on hand to assist if needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Half of the toilets don't work, are full or have no water.

Then you have the general public who are absolute animals sometimes and on occasions drivers have found the walls covered in.... Erm.... Waste.

Then add in normal cleaning and cleaning the public's waste, they'd rather not have the hassle.

Of course if the railway contracts toilets they are in breach of contract by doing so, so always be sure to report it if you see this done.