Advance fare - connecting service not running due to engineering works

[ASharpe]

I bought an EC & connections advance ticket for travel this afternoon from Bradford Interchange to Guildford.

However since buying the ticket engineering works have been planned and I can't travel from Vauxhall to GLD as in my itinerary. So now I am going be a bit late getting to Guildford.

To complicate matters slightly the Journey is via York.

Twitter are not being helpful - will a guard or Customer services at Leeds let me get an earlier train to London?

 

[TUC]

I bought an EC & connections advance ticket for travel this afternoon from Bradford Interchange to Guildford.

However since buying the ticket engineering works have been planned and I can't travel from Vauxhall to GLD as in my itinerary. So now I am going be a bit late getting to Guildford.

To complicate matters slightly the Journey is via York.

Twitter are not being helpful - will a guard or Customer services at Leeds let me get an earlier train to London?

Does your advance ticket include a seat reservation for the Vauxhall to Guildford leg? If not, you can travel on whichever service you wish for that leg and so should travel on the booked Bradford-London train and then on any Vauxhall-Guildford train.

 

[bb21]

Twitter are not being helpful - will a guard or Customer services at Leeds let me get an earlier train to London?

There is no entitlement to it AFAIK, but it cannot hurt to ask, assuming that you want to take an East Coast direct to London?

If the train you are booked on (assuming that you have a reservation coupon for that leg) to Guildford is no longer available, any service around that time of departure should be a reasonable alternative. I also think that if there is extended journey time, any train that allows you to arrive your destination as close to your booked time of arrival as possible is also a reasonable one, and it will be difficult to argue otherwise.

 

[ASharpe]

I'll get to Leeds a little earlier and ask about getting an earlier train.

I don't have a reservation on the London to Guildford leg but with the diversions I would end up being just over half an hour later arriving than I want to.

With a normal service I would usually get in half an hour earlier than booked due to being able to cross quickly. But with the changed timetable/diversion and having an extra bag with me I don't think I can even make it to be on time.

 

[Urban Gateline]

These engineering works have been planned a long time in Advance and were advertised on the South West Trains site months ago, so really you should have known about them!

The mainline from Clapham Junction to Surbiton is closed so trains are going via Richmond and Addlestone the long way around hence the long Journey times!

It seems to me you want to use the Advance ticket you have as a flexible ticket without paying more, ie having your cake and eating it! No sympathy I'm afraid as these works have been advertised for a while on the South West Trains site!

 

[Olympian]

It seems to me you want to use the Advance ticket you have as a flexible ticket without paying more, ie having your cake and eating it! No sympathy I'm afraid as these works have been advertised for a while on the South West Trains site!

That's rather harsh since the OP said that the itinerary they booked is no longer available due to engineering works. It's not their fault that whichever website or ticket office they booked with didn't take into account the SWT changes when they made the booking, and all they're now wanting to do is arrive in Guildford as per their booked arrival time. On that basis it's hardly a case of trying to have their cake and eat it!

 

[Nippy]

Agree, harsh on the OP.

 

[CyrusWuff]

If it was the other way round and the York - Kings Cross leg was the one that was altered due to Engineering Work then yes, I'd expect flexibility. As it isn't, and the Waterloo - Guildford leg was only ever a "suggested" connection following what most people would regard as an excessive cross-London transfer time, I would be surprised if the OP was allowed to travel earlier.

Should they arrive at their destination an hour or more late, then it's possible to request compensation under SWT's Passenger's Charter.

 

[ASharpe]

I got a slightly earlier train to Bradford and asked what I could do at Leeds. Only option is to get my booked trains to London.

I had thought that advance fares were not released until engineering work was finalised. I bought the ticket through East Coast, probably the day they were released.

It was only by chance that I realised that the train on my itinerary might be cancelled/never going to run. I am quite used to the diversion as I normally do this journey every Sunday.

I would have thought EC would have been a bit more helpfull in getting me to my destination on time. It isn't exactly going to cost them any money and it will certainly be less effort than having to deal with my complaint.

 

[Olympian]

Agreed. How much later was your actual arrival into Guildford in the end compared to your original itinerary?

 

[ASharpe]

Originally planned 2132. Not sure exactly when I will arrive.

On the delayed 1717 LDS to York now.
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Clearly delayed by an hour now. TPE can refund me now.

Northern rail were fantastic BTW, can't fault them at all.

 

[yorkie]

These engineering works have been planned a long time in Advance and were advertised on the South West Trains site months ago, so really you should have known about them!

When should he have known about them? At the time of booking?

SWT should have uploaded the correct timetable data for these engineering works in the first place!

That may not be SWT's fault - it could be Network Rail's - but there's certainly no need to consult the SWT site when booking a through itinerary from any booking engine.

It seems to me you want to use the Advance ticket you have as a flexible ticket without paying more, ie having your cake and eating it! No sympathy I'm afraid as these works have been advertised for a while on the South West Trains site!

That's not now how it reads to me.

It reads to me that he'd like to stick (as close as possible) to the agreed and contracted stated arrival time on the itinerary, and is prepared to alter his plans by leaving earlier (at his inconvenience) in order to accommodate the fact the rail industry did not finalise the train times by the agreed and contracted deadlines.

The rail industry should agree to asharpe leaving earlier in order to arrvie on time, because otherwise it would trigger a legitimate delay compensation claim, if asharpe were to depart at the agreed time but arrive 30 or more minutes late.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the OP arrived later than the itinerary published when he bought his ticket, he should be submitting a delay claim to South West Trains. The timetable should have been sorted before the tickets were put on sale.

 

[ASharpe]

Provided my EC train makes up a bit of time I should arrive in Guildford at 2234, just over 1 hour late.

TPE are rather generous so I expect they will cover the full cost of the ticket. I will still complain to East Coast though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

These engineering works have been planned a long time in Advance and were advertised on the South West Trains site months ago, so really you should have known about them!

So should the journey planner, so he should not have been sold a ticket for services that didn't exist.

I think the rule is correct that he can't travel earlier, but I also think that is a scandal - in these situations the railway should allow the user to travel at a time departing as booked, or arriving as booked, at the passenger's option.

Neil

 

[yorkie]

I think EC are wrong to deny you the opportunity to arrive at the contracted arrival time. If you had booked with them, then I'd just address your complaint to them.

If you booked with TPE, then I'm not sure it's right to complain to them as it was SWT who failed to upload the correct timings of their services in time (I understand the rail industry is committed to a 12 week deadline) and EC who refused you the chance to arrive on time.

I would advise booking with (one of) the relevant Train Company (or companies) that you are travelling with in future, as this keeps things simple.

If TPE do refund you, that just gets EC and SWT off the hook, so is no incentive for them to get themselves in order in future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think EC are wrong to deny you the opportunity to arrive at the contracted arrival time.

I agree fully - but "you must stick to the booked service" seems to be what is the rule, so I suspect unless he goes to Passenger Focus or similar he'll get nowhere. I saw a not dissimilar Twitter exchange with fGW a while ago - ATW do short notice engineering work, so he had to travel *earlier* to meet the booked train at Cardiff - no option to take a later fGW, so he was stuck with no ticket as he couldn't leave work early.

Utterly disgraceful, however you look at it.

Neil

 

[yorkie]

... in these situations the railway should allow the user to travel at a time departing as booked, or arriving as booked, at the passenger's option...

I agree, and in my experience that usually does happen as the rail industry is usually more understanding than this.

It is rare that it doesn't happen, so I don't think asharpe's experience is typical. However I once had an SWT Guard (whose job description includes to be "positive, proactive and professional. You must genuinely enjoy working with the public and always strive to leave a good impression with a smile.") tell me and another forum member off for being on my booked Megatrain rail service, because he concluded we must have left the origin earlier than booked, because SWT were, again, late in confirming train times. But he did let us off (without a smile), which was fortunate... for him.

Sadly people will always remember the negative experiences more than the positive, so it only takes a few bad people to give the industry a bad name. This is why it's vital that the rail industry does more 'mystery shopping' and actually puts themselves in passengers shoes from time to time, and takes robust and proactive actions to ensure that their promises match the reality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sadly people will always remember the negative experiences more than the positive, so it only takes a few bad people to give the industry a bad name. This is why it's vital that the rail industry does more 'mystery shopping' and actually puts themselves in passengers shoes from time to time, and takes robust and proactive actions to ensure that their promises match the reality.

But also to have more reasonable rules. For Advance tickets, IMO the rule should be that if there is a non-trivial change to the timing of the journey after it is booked, whether planned or unplanned, the ticket restrictions should be removed such that the passenger can choose to travel to arrive as close to the planned time, or depart as close to the planned time, at the passenger's option.

It certainly was the case that any change to the timings of an easyJet flight made a free change automatically possible - without restriction other than it being the same route.

Neil

 

[ASharpe]

I think EC are wrong to deny you the opportunity to arrive at the contracted arrival time. If you had booked with them, then I'd just address your complaint to them.

If you booked with TPE, then I'm not sure it's right to complain to them as it was SWT who failed to upload the correct timings of their services in time (I understand the rail industry is committed to a 12 week deadline) and EC who refused you the chance to arrive on time.

I would advise booking with (one of) the relevant Train Company (or companies) that you are travelling with in future, as this keeps things simple.

If TPE do refund you, that just gets EC and SWT off the hook, so is no incentive for them to get themselves in order in future.

The TPE train I had a reservation for and cought from Leeds to York was delayed so I missed my booked train to London. That currently has me an hour late.

I still intend on complaining to EC, and possibly SWT, about the way I was initially treated. I don't think it is acceptable for EC to sell me a ticket and provide no help when the itinerary I booked with them is not possible.

 

[swt_passenger]

If you booked with TPE, then I'm not sure it's right to complain to them as it was SWT who failed to upload the correct timings of their services in time (I understand the rail industry is committed to a 12 week deadline) and EC who refused you the chance to arrive on time.

You know that for a fact already? That's surprising.

 

[yorkie]

The TPE train I had a reservation for and cought from Leeds to York was delayed so I missed my booked train to London. That currently has me an hour late.

Ah, I see, that wasn't clear to me. The first mention of TPE was in post #11, and referred to a refund, so I thought you were saying you had booked with TPE. I now see you had booked with EC.

It's not clear to me why you caught the 1717 though. The 1712 was available and departed from the same platform. Both are appropriate connecting services, and TPE's policy is to allow you to take a reasonable train to connect (as mentioned on this forum previously, and confirmed by a TPE guard who is known to be quite 'keen' on tickets!).

I still intend on complaining to EC, and possibly SWT, about the way I was initially treated. I don't think it is acceptable for EC to sell me a ticket and provide no help when the itinerary I booked with them is not possible.

Agreed. In post #9 it appears to me that you are saying that EC said your "only option is to get your booked trains to London", is that correct?

Did you try asking the Guard of the 1705 Leeds - King's Cross?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You know that for a fact already? That's surprising.

Which fact are you surprised at?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I personally don't think EC have done anything wrong, at least not in terms of the contract, though I know that this will not be a popular opinion.

I believe the op would have been entitled to a refund under NRCoC Condition 26a, or 26b, if they decided not to travel as a result of the altered timetable on SWT.

 

[ASharpe]

I first contacted EC about this via Twitter this morning, that didn't get me anywhere.

I phoned after that and was told that I should be able to travel early and to ask at the station.

At Leeds I was told at the kiosk on platform 8 that I could arrive late or pay for an upgrade to an open to an open ticket. It was suggested that SWT might refund that. I was told that if I did get on the wrong train I would have to pay the full fare.

I tried at the first class lounge and they said the same.

As I had a bit of time to kill then I also phoned up again and EC web support and customer services were unable to help me arrive on time without paying more for the privilege.

So then I had a pint and went to catch the 1717 to York, it was going to be slightly delayed and another delayed TPE train arrived first, but as it had an extra stop and my reserved train was waiting for the platform I decided to wait for it. The delay predicted at that time wouldn't have mattered for my connection anyway.

However due to a level crossing problem I did miss my booked train to London on York.

 

[yorkie]

So then I had a pint and went to catch the 1717 to York, it was going to be slightly delayed and another delayed TPE train arrived first, but as it had an extra stop and my reserved train was waiting for the platform I decided to wait for it. The delay predicted at that time wouldn't have mattered for my connection anyway.

I am not saying you did anything wrong, and this doesn't invalidate your delay compensation claim, but for future reference TPEs policy would be to let you take the earlier train (indeed it is prudent to do so when on the first leg of a connection into your main booked train, on an & Connections ticket, in my opinion) and the additional call at Cross Gates does not allow the later train to overtake, as the through lines were removed decades ago. And you'd have made it if you'd got that train and were first out the rear set of doors and used the subway

 

[swt_passenger]

Which fact are you surprised at?

The 'fact' that it was definitely SWT's error. I don't see how you can be sure.

 

[ASharpe]

I am not saying you did anything wrong, and this doesn't invalidate your delay compensation claim, but for future reference TPEs policy would be to let you take the earlier train (indeed it is prudent to do so when on the first leg of a connection into your main booked train, on an & Connections ticket, in my opinion) and the additional call at Cross Gates does not allow the later train to overtake, as the through lines were removed decades ago. And you'd have made it if you'd got that train and were first out the rear set of doors and used the subway

I didn't know any of that before now. I thought I would have to pay full fare if I got on an 'earlier' reservable train. And I didn't think it would matter anyway.

 

[yorkie]

The 'fact' that it was definitely SWT's error. I don't see how you can be sure.

In response to a claim that

These engineering works have been planned a long time in Advance and were advertised on the South West Trains site months ago, so really you should have known about them!

I replied

SWT should have uploaded the correct timetable data for these engineering works in the first place!

That may not be SWT's fault - it could be Network Rail's - but there's certainly no need to consult the SWT site when booking a through itinerary from any booking engine.

Which I'd argue isn't the same as what you think I said.

 

[Olympian]

It's not clear to me why you caught the 1717 though. The 1712 was available and departed from the same platform. Both are appropriate connecting services, and TPE's policy is to allow you to take a reasonable train to connect (as mentioned on this forum previously, and confirmed by a TPE guard who is known to be quite 'keen' on tickets!).

To be fair to asharpe I would have done exactly the same, even whilst aware of what has been mentioned on this forum previously, if I had an Advance ticket with a reservation for the 1717 and the terms and conditions of my ticket (on both EC and TPE websites, at least) said "Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s)." and I'd not been given permission to board a different train.

Is there actually anything on the TPE website detailing this alternative policy that you have cited as all I can find on it are statements like "Advance Purchase Tickets are valid only for the train service for which they are booked." so it just sounds to me like an unofficial policy that guards apply? I'd think that many people, me included, won't be brave enough to travel on a different reservable train, seemingly against the Advance ticket terms and conditions, on the basis of a few forum posts alone when everything else publicly available seems to forbid doing so.

 

[Starmill]

Northern's guards will almost never refuse you travel on an Advance if you ask nicely (although there are the odd ones who will say no to anything! NB this is me doing my best not to 'hold on to the negatives' as yorkie says)- and the vast majority would be happy to accept all but the most unreasonable of connections. TPE is a bit different and one generally needs to articulate specifically and usually very quickly why it is you need to be on a train that is not as booked, because a reservation coupon will have been issued for travel on their service if theirs is the one the booking engine puts you on - in this case, a last-minute alteration to South West Trains services. East Coast are probably the second most likely TOC to try to charge you for even a small discrepancy with booking details - the first being East Midlands Trains (this is empirical).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there actually anything on the TPE website detailing this alternative policy that you have cited as all I can find on it are statements like "Advance Purchase Tickets are valid only for the train service for which they are booked." so it just sounds to me like an unofficial policy that guards apply? I'd think that many people, me included, won't be brave enough to travel on a different reservable train, seemingly against the Advance ticket terms and conditions, on the basis of a few forum posts alone when everything else publicly available seems to forbid doing so.

This is all true. The only way to be totally sure is to obtain permission to travel. Ticket office and other station staff will almost never give it to you (although First Class Lounge staff for a certain TOC are apparently permitted to do this and go over and above - even to issue Special Authority to Travel notes for passengers who have apparently just lost their tickets!!!). Approaching the guard is not always practical though, and I should think that it would deny you a seat to do so at Leeds at that time because you would be one of the latter people to board. I have never been able to locate an East Coast guard on the platform at Leeds.