Advance fare - connecting service not running due to engineering works

[Olympian]

TPE is a bit different and one generally needs to articulate specifically and usually very quickly why it is you need to be on a train that is not as booked, because a reservation coupon will have been issued for travel on their service if theirs is the one the booking engine puts you on - in this case, a last-minute alteration to South West Trains services.

Agreed, but Yorkie is saying that TPE apparently have a general policy of just letting you take trains other than those you are reserved on, without any mention made of having to obtain any prior permission to do so or justify it once on board, although I still want to know where it is officially publicised rather than just relying on what their guard(s) may have told this forum.

 

[yorkie]

... although I still want to know where it is officially publicised....

Sadly it's not, but we'll see if we can get something done about that. Getting
access to such policies can be hard enough, let alone getting them published (it helps with EC as they're subject to FOI!)

The ticket T&Cs say you can take "appropriate" connecting services, and are silent on the matter of reserveable vs unreserveable trains.

The Advance Fare FAQs do not form part of the contract but state that you can take alternative trains if they are not reserveable, but you can't if they are reservable. There are exceptions to this, and Stevenage to London is given as an exception. No other examples of exceptions are given, sadly.

 

[MikeWh]

I saw a not dissimilar Twitter exchange with fGW a while ago - ATW do short notice engineering work, so he had to travel *earlier* to meet the booked train at Cardiff - no option to take a later fGW, so he was stuck with no ticket as he couldn't leave work early.

Utterly disgraceful, however you look at it.

Neil

That is wrong. If he arrived at the ATW station in time for the first train on his itinerary then he should have been passed on later trains throughout if the first train didn't run to time.

Sorry for taking the thread a bit OT but this needed to be countered.

 

[yorkie]

That is wrong. If he arrived at the ATW station in time for the first train on his itinerary then he should have been passed on later trains throughout if the first train didn't run to time.

Sorry for taking the thread a bit OT but this needed to be countered.

Agreed. If we can get a link to the exchange in a new thread, and if the person with the problem can get in touch, I am sure we can assist.

 

[swt_passenger]

Which I'd argue isn't the same as what you think I said.

I take that criticism back then. What's happened is that I only read the more succinct version in post #16, rather than the original in post #12

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. If we can get a link to the exchange in a new thread, and if the person with the problem can get in touch, I am sure we can assist.

Can't find it now, I'm afraid, but if I hear of something similar again I will post it.

Neil

 

[Olympian]

Sadly it's not, but we'll see if we can get something done about that. Getting
access to such policies can be hard enough, let alone getting them published (it helps with EC as they're subject to FOI!)

The ticket T&Cs say you can take "appropriate" connecting services, and are silent on the matter of reserveable vs unreserveable trains.

The Advance Fare FAQs do not form part of the contract but state that you can take alternative trains if they are not reserveable, but you can't if they are reservable. There are exceptions to this, and Stevenage to London is given as an exception. No other examples of exceptions are given, sadly.

Thanks, but given the above I really struggle to agree with you encouraging anyone to just travel on an earlier reservable service other than the one they are reserved on unless they have gained prior permission to do so. It seems that you are advising people like asharpe to just ignore their reservation because of what a TPE guard has previously told this forum, despite there being no official TPE policy publicly available to substantiate it and the ticket T&Cs, booking websites, Advance Fare FAQs and even physical tickets all clearly saying otherwise.

 

[Starmill]

Thanks, but given the above I really struggle to agree with you encouraging anyone to just travel on an earlier reservable service other than the one they are reserved on unless they have gained prior permission to do so. It seems that you are advising people like asharpe to just ignore their reservation because of what a TPE guard has previously told this forum, despite there being no official TPE policy publicly available to substantiate it and the ticket T&Cs, booking websites, Advance Fare FAQs and even physical tickets all clearly saying otherwise.

I'm afraid that's the best we are going to get. You can beg for common sense and hope some is forthcoming - welcome to the Railway industry. What would you rather, everyone just puts up with the delay and has no say in the matter?

Perhaps add your voice to the several of us who have contacted our MPs about the various unsatisfactory practices engaged in by TOCs?

 

[Olympian]

I'm afraid that's the best we are going to get. You can beg for common sense and hope some is forthcoming - welcome to the Railway industry. What would you rather, everyone just puts up with the delay and has no say in the matter?

Perhaps add your voice to the several of us who have contacted our MPs about the various unsatisfactory practices engaged in by TOCs?

I think you're missing my point (or I'm not articulating it very well!). It was not about passengers just putting up with delays - of course TOCs should assist them wherever possible in minimising them - but Yorkie's statement

I am not saying you did anything wrong, and this doesn't invalidate your delay compensation claim, but for future reference TPEs policy would be to let you take the earlier train (indeed it is prudent to do so when on the first leg of a connection into your main booked train, on an & Connections ticket, in my opinion) and the additional call at Cross Gates does not allow the later train to overtake, as the through lines were removed decades ago. And you'd have made it if you'd got that train and were first out the rear set of doors and used the subway

that doesn't say anything about it being only to avoid a subsequent delay or anything similar and therefore just sounded like a general TPE policy that could be used even if everything was running on time. This is what I don't agree with, in the context of reservable trains, in the absence of a publicly available policy that over-rides the Advance ticket T&Cs.

 

[Deerfold]

Which I'd argue isn't the same as what you think I said.

The post they replied to said:

If you booked with TPE, then I'm not sure it's right to complain to them as it was SWT who failed to upload the correct timings of their services in time (I understand the rail industry is committed to a 12 week deadline) and EC who refused you the chance to arrive on time.

They didn't just think you said that...

 

[Haywain]

Getting
access to such policies can be hard enough, let alone getting them published (it helps with EC as they're subject to FOI!)

For now, anyway!

 

[yorkie]

The post they replied to said:

They didn't just think you said that...

swt_passenger thought I said it was "definitely SWT's error" (post #26), but my post referring to fault/error was post #12 where I actually stated it "may not be" SWT's fault; I wasn't actually saying it was SWT's fault.

What is not disputed is the fact that the actual train times had not been uploaded at the time the OP made his booking, however that isn't necessarily an "error" on the part of a particular party.

What matters is that the OP was denied the possibility of arriving at the contracted arrival time by East Coast, who were the booking agent (though what difference that makes exactly depends on contract law, and I'm not an expert on that) and were also in a direct position to assist the OP. I therefore intend that we get an apology out of EC and a promise that in future people will not be denied the ability to travel earlier in order to have a chance of making their contracted arrival time.

 

[ASharpe]

I eventually arrived in Guildford 73 minutes later than in my itinerary on Saturday. Despite setting off from Bradford early.

I have asked TPE for delay compensation and clarification on which trains I can take for as part of an '& connections' ticket.

I have also sent East Coast (who sold my ticket and were the main operator on my advance ticket) a complaint about the service I received. I think it is unreasonable for a TOC to refuse to assist one of their own customers to arrive at the time stated when they booked their ticket.

My opinion is that customers prepared to travel earlier and possibly extend their journey times should be accommodated on earlier trains if necessary. Not just advised to arrive late and attempt to claim delay compensation.

I fully accept and am well accustomed to delays on the rail network. But on this occasion my delay was for purely bureaucratic reasons which I do not find acceptable. A mistake was made by a TOC, and my reasonable attempt to minimize the consequence of their mistake was rejected.

 

[Starmill]

Excellent approach, asharpe. Good on you - and well done for sticking up for your point of view.

Now let's see how far it gets us :cry::cry::cry:

 

[yorkie]

Excellent approach, asharpe. Good on you - and well done for sticking up for your point of view.

Agreed.

Now let's see how far it gets us :cry::cry::cry:

I'm hopeful of a good response from both Companies.

 

[Haywain]

Originally planned 2132. Not sure exactly when I will arrive.

Was this the arrival time given on your itinerary when you originally booked? And what was the revised arrival time according to the revised timetable?

 

[ASharpe]

Was this the arrival time given on your itinerary when you originally booked? And what was the revised arrival time according to the revised timetable?

2132 was the time on the itinerary.

2203 would have been when I would have arrived according to the revised timetable.

I actually arrived in Guildford 2245, good luck with the tube and rushing allowed me to make the cross London connection, I could easily have missed it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have been in contact with TPE about their policy on traveling on an earlier service with an advance ticket.

I was told that the rules are not clear cut and to speak to a member of staff for advice.

TPE have sent RTVs for my delay.

Also, Having read the advance fares FAQ myself it appears that East Coast to Stevenage are an exception by permitting earlier travel on reservable trains.

However on non reservable trains I am not sure it is clear whether or not earlier travel is permitted if a reservation is held for another connecting TOC.

And I have no idea at all what the rule would be when a reservation is held for a non-reservable (counted place?) connection.

 

[yorkie]

The conditions require you to take "appropriate" connecting services.

See this, this and this, to provide just 3 links out of perhaps a 3-figure number of threads discussing this problematic issue, for which we'll never get agreement among everyone.

The rules for your ticket used to be clear, simple, and easy-to-understand, stating:

Valid on date, GNER train and seats shown on the ticket, plus connecting trains as
required.

That was clear to me that the GNER train was compulsory (yes, even the seat... but this is rarely enforced) but connecting trains were not.

Then came "simplification" (or, in reality, complification) and this wording was lost. The current wording is:

If the 'Route' also states 'and Connections' travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

It could be argued that any train that shows on a NRE journey planner itinerary (which is quite customisable) can be considered "appropriate", but not everyone agrees with that interpretation.

I would argue it would be absurd for a passenger to be forced let a TPE train go in your circumstances which then results in being delayed, when the preceding trains would, by the definition I think most people would agree on, be "appropriate".

Although not part of the T&Cs, thus not forming part of the contract, the Knowledgebase (iKB) says you may take alternative non-reservable trains (in this case Northern only) but not reservable trains. A copy of this document is in our Fares Guide in PDF format.

You need to go back to TPE and make it clear you were following the instructions of EC staff and you want TPE's policy. You could refer to the Stevenage-London exception example and ask if Leeds-York for a journey to/beyond London, is in the same category? It would be absurd if it wasn't.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The rules for your ticket used to be clear, simple, and easy-to-understand, stating:

Valid on date, GNER train and seats shown on the ticket, plus connecting trains as
required.

That was clear to me that the GNER train was compulsory (yes, even the seat... but this is rarely enforced) but connecting trains were not.....

It used to be clearer than that as Virgin came up with the restriction for their "Value" fares and the 'connecting services' were only from a set list of train companies, none of whom, at the time, offered reservations on their services.