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Advance single to Mcr Picc - Alight at Oxford Rd?

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zero

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I have used an LNER advance from the south to Waverley to open the barriers at Haymarket. I did have a paper ticket from Waverley onwards which allowed breaking at Haymarket, so my "overtravelling" was still covered.

Also a one-way Eurostar ticket to Amsterdam Centraal appears to open the barriers there for the rest of the day, in both directions.

Idiotic restriction! If your ticket shows “Manchester Stations” as a destination, print out a detailed itinerary showing all the station calls, adjusting the print size so that the last station on the list scrolls over onto the next sheet of paper, which you then discard. ;)(Half joking).

You can just edit the text in the PDF and no need to mess about with the font sizes, but I don't know what data is in the Aztec code.
 
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Watershed

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You can just edit the text in the PDF and no need to mess about with the font sizes, but I don't know what data is in the Aztec code.
A very bad idea, considering the itinerary and full details will be available by scanning the Aztec code!
 

Starmill

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You can just edit the text in the PDF and no need to mess about with the font sizes, but I don't know what data is in the Aztec code.
Finishing short on an Advance ticket is unlikely to be an offence, and in any case even if it were the penalty is prescribed in the Conditions and isn't very high.

Altering a ticket is always an offence, even if you don't gain a thing from it, and the penalty is potentially much, much higher.
 

scrapy

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The ticket gates at Oxford Rd will let you out with an advance ticket to Manchester Piccadilly. You are therefore very unlikely to encounter any issues.
 

TUC

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Yes, but the itinerary/reservations will show that the train is booked to Piccadilly, not Oxford Rd.
Unless there is a separate definition of 'Manchester Stations' for North/South routes, like there is for London Terminals, (Is there one?) surely the collective defintion of Manchester Stations should be presumed to apply? If TOCs want to be more specific, then it's up to them to set that in what is printed on the tickets.
 

Watershed

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Unless there is a separate definition of 'Manchester Stations' for North/South routes, like there is for London Terminals, (Is there one?) surely the collective defintion of Manchester Stations should be presumed to apply? If TOCs want to be more specific, then it's up to them to set that in what is printed on the tickets.
If it were a walk-up ticket then yes. But we are talking about an Advance here - which means it's only valid on the booked train(s).
 

Jack Hay

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Unless there is a separate definition of 'Manchester Stations' for North/South routes, like there is for London Terminals, (Is there one?) surely the collective defintion of Manchester Stations should be presumed to apply? If TOCs want to be more specific, then it's up to them to set that in what is printed on the tickets.
'Manchester Stations' is a single defined group of stations and there are five stations in it: Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Central and Victoria. A ticket to any of them is likely to open the barriers at any of them. I say 'likely' because there are too many combinations for me to have tried them all, but I've never met a case which didn't work.
 

VideozVideoz

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Finishing short on an Advance ticket is unlikely to be an offence, and in any case even if it were the penalty is prescribed in the Conditions and isn't very high.

Altering a ticket is always an offence, even if you don't gain a thing from it, and the penalty is potentially much, much higher.
I frequently get off slightly early on advance tickets. No one has ever battered an eyelid when barrier didn’t open. Also, a TfW conductor (wrongly) said to me once, you can get on a stop or 2 late if you want as long as it’s the same train but you can’t get on a stop early
 

Starmill

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I frequently get off slightly early on advance tickets. No one has ever battered an eyelid when barrier didn’t open. Also, a TfW conductor (wrongly) said to me once, you can get on a stop or 2 late if you want as long as it’s the same train but you can’t get on a stop early
Indeed. Most staff will choose to simply accept the ticket if it's being used on the correct date and service. But you can't demand that right.
 

kermit

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Thanks again for the entertaining exchanges of views and information! So TPE have cancelled my service to Preston, which was due to put me on the NT service to Manchester - all bets are off!
 

lyndhurst25

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Joking about trying to pull the wool over the eyes of barrier staff aside, this madness is a result of Northern, which AFAIK do not offer seat reservations on any of their services, making ALL of their trains “counted place reservable”. Previously if the route of the ticket was “AP TPE & CONNECT” for example, then for the for the “connections” part of the journey you did not have to stick to the train(s) in your itinerary and they were merely suggestions. You previously would have been free to alight from your unreserved Northern service at Oxford Road to change trains and perhaps use the station facilities. If refused exit then you could have either got on the next unreservable train to Piccadilly, or there buy a Piccadilly to Oxford Road single and exit legitimately.

It seems that even lightly used Northern branch line services e.g. Kirkby, Ormskirk, former Pacer hotspots, are now “counted place reservable”. You don’t actually get a seat reservation and as a result of this change you get tied to specific connecting trains on Advances involving TOCs. I suppose that the advantage to Northern is that they can then sell their own Advance fares, but often for many journeys they choose not to, so more downsides than upsides.
 

317 forever

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I frequently get off slightly early on advance tickets. No one has ever battered an eyelid when barrier didn’t open. Also, a TfW conductor (wrongly) said to me once, you can get on a stop or 2 late if you want as long as it’s the same train but you can’t get on a stop early
Last year I had a day in Liverpool from East Didsbury using Advance singles. Splitting the tickets at Piccadilly reduced the cost further but I digress ....

Anyway, as I live slightly nearer Burnage I felt tempted to get off there instead of staying onto East Didsbury. However, although it does not have ticket gates, I was concerned in case there was a random ticket check at the exit. I did therefore stay on to East Didsbury.
 

kermit

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So.....what actually happened in the end? First, as I mentioned above, TPE cancelled my train from Carlisle to Preston. I contacted them via What's App, and in fairness they responded fairly promptly, indicating that my ticket would now be valid on any Cross Country or Northern service. But I could see that it was far more likely that an Avanti service would be helpful, so I queried that, and they told me Avanti would be OK too. Good!
Then by chance, a badly delayed Avanti service rolled in to Carlisle at about the same time as my cancelled TPE, and I was back on schedule. The Northern stopper from Preston to Hazel Grove was a bit late, my actual ticket, as widely predicted, said "Manchester Stations", so I decided to get off at Oxford Rd and argue (politely) if an issue arose. The ticket opened the gate. Story over! Thanks everybody, it's been a journey!!
 

kermit

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If your ticket says Manchester stations no one is going to argue, if they do say you stated Oxford Rd, gatelines will struggle to prove otherwise.
The ticket said Manchester Stations, but the compulsory reservation part specified Piccadilly. Whilst I assume the gate line staff have no right to demand you produce the reservation part, if you do not, I also assume that they have the right to deem the ticket invalid, and proceed down the path of potential prosecution. Equally, although I understand the distinction between the crime of travelling without a ticket, and the imposition of a penalty fare, if I chose not to pay the penalty fare, then an enforcement option involving Court could have ensued?

And so we go back to my main gripe about all of this - because The Railway introduced Advance Tickets (not for the good of our collective health, but as a marketing tool), they were also granted the right to keep you on a train whether you want to be there or not, to the end of the originally specified journey. Pleeping that people might take advantage by buying advance tickets at cheaper rates then baling out early falls into the category, as far as I am concerned, of Tough for The Railway's Opaque Ticketing Systems, and does not justify a disproportionate right to keep people on trains, on pain of prosecution.

In this particular instance, the use of the term "Manchester Stations" on the ticket doubles the potential injustice, if staff interpreted my getting off at Manchester Oxford Road as a transgression for which I might be penalised. I am not suggesting that a passenger with an Advance Ticket should have the right to "break the journey" in the traditional sense, in that they then resume the journey on a later train using the same ticket. I am suggesting that they should have a right to get off the train and abandon the full originally intended journey, without penalty.
 

Watershed

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Whilst I assume the gate line staff have no right to demand you produce the reservation part
They can demand your ticket. The reservations form part of the ticket and so they're entitled to require you to produce your reservations in just the same way as the ticket itself. With e-tickets, this becomes a moot point as the reservations and itinerary are shown as part of the ticket.

if you do not, I also assume that they have the right to deem the ticket invalid, and proceed down the path of potential prosecution.
Correct.

Equally, although I understand the distinction between the crime of travelling without a ticket, and the imposition of a penalty fare, if I chose not to pay the penalty fare, then an enforcement option involving Court could have ensued?
If you simply ignore the Penalty Fare then it will likely be cancelled and a prosecution commenced. If you appeal it, and the appeals body makes a decision (or the deadline for them to do so elapses without a decision), the TOC is barred from bringing a prosecution and their only remaining recourse - if your appeal was unsuccessful and you don't pay - is to bring a civil claim against you.

It's important to note that merely breaking your journey/stopping short where not permitted isn't something for which you can be prosecuted. When you do so, you become liable to pay an excess fare - namely the difference between the fare you paid and the cheapest valid walk-up fare that permits break of journey.

Only if you refused to pay this this excess fare that it would be open to the TOC to bring a prosecution. And in no event would it be open to them to issue you with a Penalty Fare.

And so we go back to my main gripe about all of this - because The Railway introduced Advance Tickets (not for the good of our collective health, but as a marketing tool), they were also granted the right to keep you on a train whether you want to be there or not, to the end of the originally specified journey. Pleeping that people might take advantage by buying advance tickets at cheaper rates then baling out early falls into the category, as far as I am concerned, of Tough for The Railway's Opaque Ticketing Systems, and does not justify a disproportionate right to keep people on trains, on pain of prosecution.
It's not on pain of prosecution, but rather on pain of an excess fare. But I agree, it's disproportionate in most circumstances.

In this particular instance, the use of the term "Manchester Stations" on the ticket doubles the potential injustice, if staff interpreted my getting off at Manchester Oxford Road as a transgression for which I might be penalised. I am not suggesting that a passenger with an Advance Ticket should have the right to "break the journey" in the traditional sense, in that they then resume the journey on a later train using the same ticket. I am suggesting that they should have a right to get off the train and abandon the full originally intended journey, without penalty.
Generally speaking I would agree. I do have a little bit of sympathy with the position that you shouldn't be allowed to finish your journey early if your route was only valid by virtue of you using a direct train (e.g. using a circular service the "long" way round).

It's important to note that internal industry guidance has, for over a decade, been to allow people to start late/stop short without penalty, unless there is evidence that it's an attempt to undercut another fare. But of course that guidance isn't something you can rely on, and individual members of staff can "breach" it with impunity.

This is an area where the industry definitely needs to think again.
 

kermit

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They can demand your ticket. The reservations form part of the ticket and so they're entitled to require you to produce your reservations in just the same way as the ticket itself. With e-tickets, this becomes a moot point as the reservations and itinerary are shown as part of the ticket.


Correct.


If you simply ignore the Penalty Fare then it will likely be cancelled and a prosecution commenced. If you appeal it, and the appeals body makes a decision (or the deadline for them to do so elapses without a decision), the TOC is barred from bringing a prosecution and their only remaining recourse - if your appeal was unsuccessful and you don't pay - is to bring a civil claim against you.

It's important to note that merely breaking your journey/stopping short where not permitted isn't something for which you can be prosecuted. When you do so, you become liable to pay an excess fare - namely the difference between the fare you paid and the cheapest valid walk-up fare that permits break of journey.

Only if you refused to pay this this excess fare that it would be open to the TOC to bring a prosecution. And in no event would it be open to them to issue you with a Penalty Fare.


It's not on pain of prosecution, but rather on pain of an excess fare. But I agree, it's disproportionate in most circumstances.


Generally speaking I would agree. I do have a little bit of sympathy with the position that you shouldn't be allowed to finish your journey early if your route was only valid by virtue of you using a direct train (e.g. using a circular service the "long" way round).

It's important to note that internal industry guidance has, for over a decade, been to allow people to start late/stop short without penalty, unless there is evidence that it's an attempt to undercut another fare. But of course that guidance isn't something you can rely on, and individual members of staff can "breach" it with impunity.

This is an area where the industry definitely needs to think again.
Thanks for the detailed response and general validation of my point, and apologies for muddling excess fares and penalty fares. My broad point there was that although gate line staff have no right to physically search you to obtain a reservation portion of a ticket, they do have the ability to cause you pain/aggravation through enforcement processes, at their discretion, and may be backed up by current rules and legislation.
 
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