Advantages and Disadvantages of driverless trains?

[HarleyDavidson]

Not capacity in that regard. I mean in the amount of trains running...

That would depend on the setup of the signalling or control equipment and how it was specified by the operator.

 

[ooo]

Not capacity in that regard. I mean in the amount of trains running...

If staff aren't needed for the train to run then extra trains can be run without having to find drivers

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

That would depend on the setup of the signalling or control equipment and how it was specified by the operator.

I see. A subjective advantage then...

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

If staff aren't needed for the train to run then extra trains can be run without having to find drivers

Thanks for that. I know it seems a very simple answer but I've never been sure. The DLR doesn't seem to run as much as the Tube in my experiences you see. But then again I can't completely remember the timings...

 

[ooo]

Thanks for that. I know it seems a very simple answer but I've never been sure. The DLR doesn't seem to run as much as the Tube in my experiences you see. But then again I can't completely remember the timings...

The dlr still needs a member of staff to operate the doors so still has the issue of lack of staff whereas systems like some Paris METRO trains don't have any staff.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

The dlr still needs a member of staff to operate the doors so still has the issue of lack of staff whereas systems like some Paris METRO trains don't have any staff.

Have often thought that the attendant was just there in the case of an emergency. Learn something new everyday...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Obviously take what Wiki says with a pinch of salt , but it gives you some idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_line#Signalling_system

Also the more trains you want, the more complex the signalling/control system is going to be and the higher the cost of installing & maintaining it will be. Also don't forget these are enclosed low speed systems, probably not more than 45 mph or so, so not suitable for mainline running.

 

[Ianno87]

Thanks for that. I know it seems a very simple answer but I've never been sure. The DLR doesn't seem to run as much as the Tube in my experiences you see. But then again I can't completely remember the timings...

The benefit on the DLR is that the infrastructure required to run the train service is minimised through avoiding the need for drivers to change ends - e.g. something like 18tph are reversed using the single headshunt at Bank.

 

[hooverboy]

Plus how does a detection system reliably differentiate between a deer say and a human? What about track workers? Throw in the brakes everytime it encounters one of them?
A non-starter on the mainline I think thankfully.

This one is easy. Rail track workers will wear RFID beacons/garments. Sheep and cows will not. The military have been using this to detect friendly/hostile aircraft for years.

As for stopping in time, probably won't but new trains will have a host of radar and laser sensors to give a real time update of obstacles.

The train and it's new software can keep up, and can probably make up it's own mind to stop if needed, but the present GSM rail telecom system won't. It will have to be LTE or fibre to cabinet if you want this baby stopped remotely.

 

[Mintona]

nothing is perfect, most systems on the train are computer controlled anyway. computers don't sulk, have bad days, suffer fatigue, get distracted, over sleep, run late, get stuck in traffic, go sick, go on strike etc

Tell me, how many rail incidents / accidents have been caused by computer failure as opposed to human error?

I would say that in this day and age, it’s more likely for a train to go past a red signal because the signal decides to change itself from green to red, than it is because of human error. However, this very rarely causes an accident due to safety systems such as TPWS.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This one is easy. Rail track workers will wear RFID beacons/garments. Sheep and cows will not. The military have been using this to detect friendly/hostile aircraft for years.

It's rather more likely that track workers will gain the ability to directly instruct a stop or speed reduction of all trains on the line in the event of an accident.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll be retired by the time it gets to the mainline. They don't want to invest in anything other than the white elephant called HS2, let alone the rest of the mainline network and electrification projects.

So good luck with the notion of having driverless trains running at high speed on the mainlines.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some form of ATO on HS2 when it eventually gets built, though, even if a driver is used on the non-HS2 sections.

Of course Thameslink is already built for ATO as are fair bits of the Tube.

 

[Bletchleyite]

None other than you might get a 2-4 extra seats where the cab was, the problem you have with that is, if then the supervisor or whoever is on there for emergency purposes then overrides things and takes control, they're no longer in an enclosed & secure environment and as such could then be threatened by a loony with a knife or gun whilst at the controls. Could get messy!

How? If in doubt, the train is stopped externally. It is not an aircraft, it can move in one dimension only and can be stopped from outside.

 

[ComUtoR]

How? If in doubt, the train is stopped externally. It is not an aircraft, it can move in one dimension only and can be stopped from outside.

Other than cutting the power. How do you stop the train externally ? I've theorycrafted this many times and I'm pretty sure I could smash a train into a terminal platform at speed way before someone could notify the ECO and cut the power, even then the momentum would carry the unit pretty far.

 

[hooverboy]

It's rather more likely that track workers will gain the ability to directly instruct a stop or speed reduction of all trains on the line in the event of an accident.

if the roster comes up with engineering works in that area at that time,that information will already be programmed into the cab computer and speed adjusted accordingly.
it will be possible to create a real-time line speed governor for whatever train is operating that route,including speed restriction changes,reported hazards etc.

 

[Eccles1983]

In the world of automated trains I should expect no track workers to be needed.

Surely track bashers are easily replaced by machines.

I mean the massive elephant in the room is cost, but lets not let the real world get in the way of this tech nerds wet dream.

 

[bspahh]

I just got back from Barcelona. The L9 South Metro line runs from the Airport to the University area. I didn't see a member of staff for the whole journey, just 20km of concrete tunnel.

The line is 80m below the ground at some points, and some of the stations are 60m deep. I went back from Collblanc the and there were high speed lifts or 6 fairly long escalators to get down to the platforms. In contrast the Northern line is 60m below the ground and the deepest station is 42m down.

A carnet of 10 tickets is €10 (!)

 

[philthetube]

I just got back from Barcelona. The L9 South Metro line runs from the Airport to the University area. I didn't see a member of staff for the whole journey, just 20km of concrete tunnel.

The line is 80m below the ground at some points, and some of the stations are 60m deep. I went back from Collblanc the and there were high speed lifts or 6 fairly long escalators to get down to the platforms. In contrast the Northern line is 60m below the ground and the deepest station is 42m down.

A carnet of 10 tickets is €10 (!)

Is it possible to evacuate without walking along the track?

 

[bspahh]

Is it possible to evacuate without walking along the track?

I don't think so. A quarter of a mile from one of the stations, I saw some steel doors on the pavement for an emergency exit from the tunnel.

The tunnel is 12m diameter so there is quite a lot of space to walk along the track. They use a third rail rather than wires for the electricity, but it runs along the roof. There is an evacuation door at the front of the train. There are some diagrams here:
https://www.vialibre-ffe.com/pdf/4250_5_MaterialMovil.pdf

 

[jdxn]

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. The cow incursion a perfect example. Trains break down, and if its on the WCML in the countryside you stand a much better chance of getting going sooner with a highly trained driver on board talking to a maintenance team.

More importantly think safety....

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-112017-derailment-and-subsequent-collision-at-watford Read this report and if the train that had come off the lines had had no staff on it the Down train would have hit it at a much faster speed. 2 trains, collision in tunnel and no-one on the ground? Really? For all the technical nerding is this really what we want to achieve?

Capacity issues will be helped by technologies such as ETCS, but apart from metro lines there probably won't even be the requirement for Level 3 moving block. Technology combined with human is the best combination!

I love new technology but real peoples eyes are better for some things, especially on a mainline railway.

I'm not a driver so don't have any vested interest but as a human race we have to decide how much automation we want in life generally. Over the next 100 years we could automate everything (including accountants!) as AI gets better, but would that be a good thing? If uncontrolled it could lead to many millions around the world without jobs or anyway of eating, and all the money and control in the global computing/automation providers, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Siemens etc.... A more unstable world!

 

[Jordeh]

Why are obstacles on the line seen as an issue for driverless trains but rarely for driverless cars? Driverless cars have successfully operated in built-up areas across the US with unpredictable humans and other vehicles, and the accident rate has been significantly less than with human drivers. After all, the response rate of computers is better. Computers also don’t get bored, lose concentration or fall asleep.

With the increasingly advanced sensors, I see no reason why trains in the future couldn’t be better than today’s humans at object detection. Some people in this thread talk about object detection as if it’s impossible for driverless trains.

 

[jdxn]

Why are obstacles on the line seen as an issue for driverless trains but rarely for driverless cars? Driverless cars have successfully operated in built-up areas across the US with unpredictable humans and other vehicles, and the accident rate has been significantly less than with human drivers. After all, the response rate of computers is better. Computers also don’t get bored, lose concentration or fall asleep.

With the increasingly advanced sensors, I see no reason why trains in the future couldn’t be better than today’s humans at object detection. Some people in this thread talk about object detection as if it’s impossible for driverless trains.

Again this is a Metro vs Mainline thing I think. Operating in a built up area in the US will be at comparatively slow speeds in a vehicle that can stop quickly compared to a 125mph train which cannot. They are totally different things. A human can identify what the 'obstruction' is at half a mile away as opposed to there being an obstruction. Whether long range obstacle detection is viable with all the lineside stuff such as OLE and other structures is undetermined too. All this fanciful stuff about trackworkers wearing tags for identification is total nonsense........

 

[Jordeh]

Again this is a Metro vs Mainline thing I think. Operating in a built up area in the US will be at comparatively slow speeds in a vehicle that can stop quickly compared to a 125mph train which cannot. They are totally different things. A human can identify what the 'obstruction' is at half a mile away as opposed to there being an obstruction. Whether long range obstacle detection is viable with all the lineside stuff such as OLE and other structures is undetermined too. All this fanciful stuff about trackworkers wearing tags for identification is total nonsense........

A 125mph train can rarely stop in time if it sees an object on the tracks - whether it's a computer or human driving. Driverless cars have also been tested on motorways with speeds around 70mph and they will only get better (I concede they are not perfect yet by any means).

I do not think in the future it is unrealistic for a train to track objects in the distance, they could begin building up a database of constantly evolving images of what the railways are like and could use that to detect changes (ie objects). There's nothing particularly fanciful about track workers wearing RFID tags, they're cheap and reliable. RFID technology was in fact popularised by US railroads decades ago for tracking containers.

However, I do not think driverless trains on the mainline are likely until driverless cars are mainstream and widely accepted by the public - which is at least 15-20 years away based on today's estimates. The railways after all do have higher safety standards and are unlikely to use unproven technology.

 

[whhistle]

Not everyone feels particularly comfortable with a driverless train you see. I think the psychological effect would apply more to potential mainline driverless services.

There are still many that don't like contactless payments.
But then they got round to using chip and pin. So it'll be the same... eventually people will come round to it.
I mean, a rarely see the plane pilot. If British Airways were "found out" to not have pilots on board, they may see a very short term dip in sales but people would still use them.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I mean, a rarely see the plane pilot. If British Airways were "found out" to not have pilots on board, they may see a very short term dip in sales but people would still use them.

Aircrafts can operate on autopilot for the majority of the journey anyway. The only pilot control I know of is take-off and landing, and maybe when autopilot goes wrong. I imagine that after trains are driverless for a while people will come around because of how it simply works. In fact, the DLR has probably removed most people's uneasiness by now.

 

[Dave1987]

Aircrafts can operate on autopilot for the majority of the journey anyway. The only pilot control I know of is take-off and landing, and maybe when autopilot goes wrong. I imagine that after trains are driverless for a while people will come around because of how it simply works. In fact, the DLR has probably removed most people's uneasiness by now.

Do you actually understand how the auto flight systems on an aircraft work? It’s not as automated as you seem to believe. I’ve not contributed to this thread as it’s the same arguments over and over again in a new thread every few months or so.

FWIW in response to the title of this thread the only advantage I could foresee in a “driverless” train is the customer service aspects. But the disadvantages are way way more than the advantages.

 

[jdxn]

I do not think in the future it is unrealistic for a train to track objects in the distance, they could begin building up a database of constantly evolving images of what the railways are like and could use that to detect changes (ie objects). There's nothing particularly fanciful about track workers wearing RFID tags, they're cheap and reliable. RFID technology was in fact popularised by US railroads decades ago for tracking containers.

Do you actually understand how the auto flight systems on an aircraft work? It’s not as automated as you seem to believe. I’ve not contributed to this thread as it’s the same arguments over and over again in a new thread every few months or so.

+1 on the aircraft autopilot. The idea that a pilot is sitting there most of the time doing nothing is ridiculous but one put out by the consistently by the media. It's exactly the same with signallers. On a large IECC worksation most trains are signalled from the timetable by ARS but the signaller can still have a massive workload.

Of course its possible for a trackworker to wear a RFID tag in the same way its possible for them to wear an orange top hat. And yes they use them in many places to count things. However they are unidirectional and there is no safety critical elements to the way they operate. If you miscount a container its not a life and death matter. It would need additional equipment like GPS etc to make it work. What happens if the RFID fails? It's just not failsafe.

As per my previous post, and I urge you to read the report the Watford crash could have been very serious indeed. It was by a fluke of axle/transmission design that the trains didn't collide head on in a tunnel. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...t_data/file/636626/R112017_170810_Watford.pdf The independent report says:

The consequences of the accident were mitigated by the actions of the train
crews in the following ways:
a. Early use of the GSM-R emergency button by the driver of train 2K04 before
his train stopped moving (paragraph 33).
b. Quick response to the emergency stop message by the driver of train 2Y59, by
applying his train’s brakes in time to significantly reduce the speed of collision.
It is likely that this reduced both the extent of injuries and the amount of
damage (paragraph 34).
c. Early notification of the accident to the signaller by both drivers (paragraphs
37 and 45).
d. Actions of the guards, including checking and reporting that no passengers
were seriously injured, communicating with the drivers, keeping passengers
informed, and assisting with detrainment (paragraphs 40 and 47).

It also notes that the crash happened at 06.55 and that the first person MOM got to an access point at 07.20 which was 400m away from the crash site. Not bad although could have been way longer on other parts of the network. If they had been crewless as people seem to be clamouring for there may have been an uncontrolled evacuation on to the main lines. Sense says we need proper trained crew on the trains as well as technology.

 

[irish_rail]

Autopilot is totally irrelevant as planes will not come into contact with obstructions when at 30,000 feet. And goes without saying that Autopilot isn't engaged when the plane is on the ground taxiing to the runway, that is very much pilot controlled.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Do you actually understand how the auto flight systems on an aircraft work? It’s not as automated as you seem to believe

I can't say I do. I don't pretend to be an expert in aviation.

 

[Dave1987]

I can't say I do. I don't pretend to be an expert in aviation.

I’m confused as to why you made the comment then really. If you don’t really know much about aviation then why make a comment about the extent of automation and pilot control if you don’t really know? I can assure you in aviation automation is used to assist pilot workload.