Advice on my appeal

[Doppleganger]

Hello, I've been recently issued a fine for using a railcard on a off peak ticket bought on the trainpal app before 10am however the Wolverhampton station that I regularly use have an off peak time of 9:30am and above so they always let me through the gates without any problems in addition to the app only giving the discount price of the railcard to the time 10:27am and above so the ticket that was used and inspected was the 10:27am to Wolverhampton.

But since I used the gates 17 minute before 10am the inspector chose to give the fine anyways. When I appealed the first time the inspector told me that its my first fine, I've only recently started to take the train regularly & that I'm more than happy to pay the fine but then the appeal was denied.

The 2nd appeal I made was on about early comments about Wolverhampton station having an off peak time of 9:30am and always lets me through also bringing in the fact that the inconsistency of the inspectors shouldn't justify me getting issued a ticket & that being a first time offender with only a 17 minute difference should be considered

I got until the end of 13th of april to pay my penalty of £53.30, later than that & I'll have to pay the £103.30

So should I continue the 2nd appeal & fight it out more if denied or should I just get this headache out the way & pay for the fine while its still reduced

lastly is the issued penalty due to me using a railcard discounted off peak ticket before its intending time [10am] but if that's the case what argument do I have that the Wolverhampton station has a different tolerance as this issue has never been raised when I buy a 10:27am discount off peak ticket and use it on the gates around 9:45am?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello, I've been recently issued a fine for using a railcard on a off peak ticket bought on the trainpal app before 10am however the Wolverhampton station that I regularly use have an off peak time of 9:30am and above so they always let me through the gates without any problems in addition to the app only giving the discount price of the railcard to the time 10:27am and above so the ticket that was used and inspected was the 10:27am to Wolverhampton.

But since I used the gates 17 minute before 10am the inspector chose to give the fine anyways. When I appealed the first time the inspector told me that its my first fine, I've only recently started to take the train regularly & that I'm more than happy to pay the fine but then the appeal was denied.

The 2nd appeal I made was on about early comments about Wolverhampton station having an off peak time of 9:30am and always lets me through also bringing in the fact that the inconsistency of the inspectors shouldn't justify me getting issued a ticket & that being a first time offender with only a 17 minute difference should be considered

I got until the end of 13th of april to pay my penalty of £53.30, later than that & I'll have to pay the £103.30

So should I continue the 2nd appeal & fight it out more if denied or should I just get this headache out the way & pay for the fine while its still reduced

lastly is the issued penalty due to me using a railcard discounted off peak ticket before its intending time [10am] but if that's the case what argument do I have that the Wolverhampton station has a different tolerance as this issue has never been raised when I buy a 10:27am discount off peak ticket and use it on the gates around 9:45am?

Hi and welcome

I think we need some more clarity on the situation to give you the best advice for starters

1) - what type of Railcard was it (precisely)? there are various Railcards as you probably know eg are we talking about a Two Together Railcard, a Senior Railcard or a 26-30 Railcard etc etc?

2) - where was the journey from and to (from Wolverhampton? or to Wolverhampton? please can you state clearly where was the origin and destination on the ticket you held)? I assume fairly local as it looks like the fare was £3.30

3) What type of 'fine' was this (it sounds like a Penalty Fare is that correct)? What doe the paperwork you were given call it?

4) Where were you when issued with the penalty? On a trains? or at / beside the barriers / on the platform?

Things that may be helpful for you to know:

a) Some Railcards can not be used until 10am but this has no bearing on the off peak train times of say 9.30am - hence my questions above. Using a Railcard on an off peak train that departed at 9.40 am when the Railcard was not permitted to be used until 10am would be pointless appealing in my view.

b) not all trains departing after 9.30am are necessarily off peak anyway, tho most probably are - it depends on where the ticket is booked to in some cases. Hence where was your ticket booked to?

c) The appeal process stops the clock as I understand it on the payment being £50 Penalty Fare rather that the £100

d) Finally, and most importantly - any offence would be to travel on a train when the Railcard was not valid (eg say before 10am) - not about being let through the barriers before 10am. Hence question 4 where were you issued to penalty, on the train? by the barriers? What time train did you intend to catch and what time train did you actually catch? There are various reasons why you might be let through the ticket gates before 10am with a ticket or Railcard not valid to use on a train until 10am (eg my local station the toilets can only be accessed on the platform the other side of the barrier, but you may want to go through to get a coffee, or find a place to sit down in the waiting room etc etc.

If you can list out a bit more in answer to these points people will be able to tell you if it's worth pursuing an Appeal further, and advise you on the points to make in the next stage of the Appeal

 

[MrJeeves]

Hello, I've been recently issued a fine for using a railcard on a off peak ticket bought on the trainpal app before 10am however the Wolverhampton station that I regularly use have an off peak time of 9:30am and above so they always let me through the gates without any problems in addition to the app only giving the discount price of the railcard to the time 10:27am and above so the ticket that was used and inspected was the 10:27am to Wolverhampton.

But since I used the gates 17 minute before 10am the inspector chose to give the fine anyways. When I appealed the first time the inspector told me that its my first fine, I've only recently started to take the train regularly & that I'm more than happy to pay the fine but then the appeal was denied.

The 2nd appeal I made was on about early comments about Wolverhampton station having an off peak time of 9:30am and always lets me through also bringing in the fact that the inconsistency of the inspectors shouldn't justify me getting issued a ticket & that being a first time offender with only a 17 minute difference should be considered

I got until the end of 13th of april to pay my penalty of £53.30, later than that & I'll have to pay the £103.30

So should I continue the 2nd appeal & fight it out more if denied or should I just get this headache out the way & pay for the fine while its still reduced

lastly is the issued penalty due to me using a railcard discounted off peak ticket before its intending time [10am] but if that's the case what argument do I have that the Wolverhampton station has a different tolerance as this issue has never been raised when I buy a 10:27am discount off peak ticket and use it on the gates around 9:45am?

Some types of Railcard have minimum fares.

For example, both the 16-25 (excl July and August) and 26-30 railcards have a minimum price of £12 for all tickets before 10 am Mon-Fri.

If you bought a discounted ticket for a journey after 10am, but used it before 10am, then your ticket wasn't valid. Sure, the barriers might let you in and out, but that doesn't inherently mean the ticket is valid.

This is clearly stated in the Railcard terms and conditions you agreed to, as well as all over the Railcard websites.

If this was the case, I'd recommend you pay the penalty and chalk it up to experience. Fighting this won't result in success. Otherwise, I'd recommend answering @WesternLancer's questions above so we can help you further.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hello, I've been recently issued a fine for using a railcard on a off peak ticket bought on the trainpal app before 10am however the Wolverhampton station that I regularly use have an off peak time of 9:30am and above so they always let me through the gates without any problems in addition to the app only giving the discount price of the railcard to the time 10:27am and above so the ticket that was used and inspected was the 10:27am to Wolverhampton.

But since I used the gates 17 minute before 10am the inspector chose to give the fine anyways. When I appealed the first time the inspector told me that its my first fine, I've only recently started to take the train regularly & that I'm more than happy to pay the fine but then the appeal was denied.

The 2nd appeal I made was on about early comments about Wolverhampton station having an off peak time of 9:30am and always lets me through also bringing in the fact that the inconsistency of the inspectors shouldn't justify me getting issued a ticket & that being a first time offender with only a 17 minute difference should be considered

I got until the end of 13th of april to pay my penalty of £53.30, later than that & I'll have to pay the £103.30

So should I continue the 2nd appeal & fight it out more if denied or should I just get this headache out the way & pay for the fine while its still reduced

lastly is the issued penalty due to me using a railcard discounted off peak ticket before its intending time [10am] but if that's the case what argument do I have that the Wolverhampton station has a different tolerance as this issue has never been raised when I buy a 10:27am discount off peak ticket and use it on the gates around 9:45am?

Have you been inspected on a station or on a train? It's not quite clear. If it was on a train, which train, departing at what time? If it was at a station, which station, and where on the station?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Firstly, I don't understand how you think using the fact you regularly disregard the Ts&Cs of your railcard will help with an appeal. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with the gateline staff allowing you through at 09:45 for a 10:27 departure. Not everybody arrives at a railway station 2 minutes before their train departs. If you held a ticket with a departure time of 15:00 and arrived at 09:45 I would expect them to question it but not just over 1/2 hour beforehand.

Pay it.

 

[Doppleganger]

Hi and welcome

I think we need some more clarity on the situation to give you the best advice for starters

1) - what type of Railcard was it (precisely)? there are various Railcards as you probably know eg are we talking about a Two Together Railcard, a Senior Railcard or a 26-30 Railcard etc etc?

2) - where was the journey from and to (from Wolverhampton? or to Wolverhampton? please can you state clearly where was the origin and destination on the ticket you held)? I assume fairly local as it looks like the fare was £3.30

3) What type of 'fine' was this (it sounds like a Penalty Fare is that correct)? What doe the paperwork you were given call it?

4) Where were you when issued with the penalty? On a trains? or at / beside the barriers / on the platform?

Things that may be helpful for you to know:

a) Some Railcards can not be used until 10am but this has no bearing on the off peak train times of say 9.30am - hence my questions above. Using a Railcard on an off peak train that departed at 9.40 am when the Railcard was not permitted to be used until 10am would be pointless appealing in my view.

b) not all trains departing after 9.30am are necessarily off peak anyway, tho most probably are - it depends on where the ticket is booked to in some cases. Hence where was your ticket booked to?

c) The appeal process stops the clock as I understand it on the payment being £50 Penalty Fare rather that the £100

d) Finally, and most importantly - any offence would be to travel on a train when the Railcard was not valid (eg say before 10am) - not about being let through the barriers before 10am. Hence question 4 where were you issued to penalty, on the train? by the barriers? What time train did you intend to catch and what time train did you actually catch? There are various reasons why you might be let through the ticket gates before 10am with a ticket or Railcard not valid to use on a train until 10am (eg my local station the toilets can only be accessed on the platform the other side of the barrier, but you may want to go through to get a coffee, or find a place to sit down in the waiting room etc etc.

If you can list out a bit more in answer to these points people will be able to tell you if it's worth pursuing an Appeal further, and advise you on the points to make in the next stage of the Appeal

1- 16-25 railcard

2- dudley port to wolverhampton : the fare original price is £3.30 and the railcard discount is £2.20

3 - yes it was a penalty fare notice

4 - I was about to go through the barriers but the inspectors were there, scanned my ticket and pulled me to the side

4b - i usually grab the 9:27am dudley port to wolverhampton train and arrive 10 minutes later on the average, situations before this was inspectors on the train scannign my ticket but didn't have an issue with me riding the train thus the only time that its been an issue is this penalty fare and before i entered the barriers

 

[MrJeeves]

1- 16-25 railcard

2- dudley port to wolverhampton : the fare original price is £3.30 and the railcard discount is £2.20

3 - yes it was a penalty fare notice

4 - I was about to go through the barriers but the inspectors were there, scanned my ticket and pulled me to the side

4b - i usually grab the 9:27am dudley port to wolverhampton train and arrive 10 minutes later on the average, situations before this was inspectors on the train scannign my ticket but didn't have an issue with me riding the train thus the only time that its been an issue is this penalty fare and before i entered the barriers

Quick question... what day was this?

 

[Doppleganger]

from the messages

Quick question... what day was this?

it was issued on the 22nd of march

 

[AlterEgo]

4b - i usually grab the 9:27am dudley port to wolverhampton train and arrive 10 minutes later on the average, situations before this was inspectors on the train scannign my ticket but didn't have an issue with me riding the train thus the only time that its been an issue is this penalty fare and before i entered the barriers

And this is on completion of your journey, right, not at the start?

 

[fandroid]

We're you pulled up at the barriers when you tried to leave the station at Wolverhampton?

 

[Doppleganger]

Firstly, I don't understand how you think using the fact you regularly disregard the Ts&Cs of your railcard will help with an appeal. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with the gateline staff allowing you through at 09:45 for a 10:27 departure. Not everybody arrives at a railway station 2 minutes before their train departs. If you held a ticket with a departure time of 15:00 and arrived at 09:45 I would expect them to question it but not just over 1/2 hour beforehand.

Pay it.

so there is nothing wrong with gateline staff letting me through into wolverhmapton and 9:45am even though my ticket is arrival at 10:27am?

And this is on completion of your journey, right, not at the start?

yes this is the completion of my outbound journey

We're you pulled up at the barriers when you tried to leave the station at Wolverhampton?

yes

 

[AlterEgo]

so there is nothing wrong with gateline staff letting me through into wolverhmapton and 9:45am even though my ticket is arrival at 10:27am?

No.

yes this is the completion of my outbound journey


yes

Then you have no grounds to appeal as per @MrJeeves earlier post save for technical arguments about signage.

 

[MrJeeves]

from the messages

it was issued on the 22nd of march

Thanks.

Sounds like you've been lucky to not receive a penalty before then.

As per one of my earlier messages, your railcard has a minimum fare of £12 (except Advance fares) before 10am Mon-Fri, excluding bank holidays and the months of July and August. You have been buying a ticket intended for a service after 10am, hence you are being charged £2.20 instead of £3.30. Using this discounted ticket before 10am is not allowed, and boarding a service departing before 10am means you do not have a valid ticket for this service.

Boarding a train without a valid ticket is technically a strict liability (no intent to avoid the fare is needed) criminal offence, but genuine mistakes are often taken care of by way of a penalty fare, like in your case,

so there is nothing wrong with gateline staff letting me through into wolverhmapton and 9:45am even though my ticket is arrival at 10:27am?

Staff letting you through the barriers does not inherently mean your ticket is valid. As someone else said earlier, you may have arrived early for your train, intending to wait on the platform until a suitable train arrives after 10am. Not all staff know the ins and outs of railway ticketing, hence why this hadn't been spotted before. Whether they should or not is a separate question.

Your appeals will almost certainly be futile. By appealing once, you have made sure (as per the penalty fare legislation) that this situation cannot be referred to prosecution and cannot get you a criminal record. I would recommend paying the reduced penalty now.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Getting confused here.

There are fairly regular midweek departures from Dudley Port to Wolverhampton at 0927, 0957 and 1027 and thereafter at half hourly intervals. Journey time is usually ten minutes.

@Doppleganger. Which time train did you actually travel on, presume this was on Wednesday 22nd March 2023?

 

[Haywain]

so there is nothing wrong with gateline staff letting me through into wolverhmapton and 9:45am even though my ticket is arrival at 10:27am?

If staff have allowed you through the barriers at Wolverhampton at 09:45 when you have not paid the correct fare then they have made a mistake (possibly multiple mistakes) and it haas been to your good fortune. However, it doesn't mean that you have any reasonable expectation to continue to not pay the correct fare on further occasions.

 

[MrJeeves]

Which train did you actually travel on?

Going through the barriers 17 mins before 10am would place them on the 0927, allowing about 6 mins between exiting the train and getting to the barriers, I would assume.

 

[Doppleganger]

Getting confused here.

There are fairly regular midweek departures from Dudley Port to Wolverhampton at 0927, 0957 and 1027 and thereafter at half hourly intervals. Journey time is usually ten minutes.

@Doppleganger. Which time train did you actually travel on, presume this was on Wednesday 22nd March 2023?

i travelled on the 9:27 with a 10:27 ticket

 

[WesternLancer]

1- 16-25 railcard

2- dudley port to wolverhampton : the fare original price is £3.30 and the railcard discount is £2.20

3 - yes it was a penalty fare notice

4 - I was about to go through the barriers but the inspectors were there, scanned my ticket and pulled me to the side

4b - i usually grab the 9:27am dudley port to wolverhampton train and arrive 10 minutes later on the average, situations before this was inspectors on the train scannign my ticket but didn't have an issue with me riding the train thus the only time that its been an issue is this penalty fare and before i entered the barriers

Thanks for clarifying the various points.

Basically if you check the main T&Cs of your Railcard you will see it is subject to a minimum fare at the time you travelled, as mentioned by other people. So you have essentially been travelling on a Railcard Discounted ticket at a time when that is not permitted, thus your ticket has no validity (and the railway company would also be able to have prosecuted you, which is much worse, as you would get a criminal record as well as a court fine and have to pay the fare and railway costs of prosecuting you - probably all add up to about c£400 maybe) you have avoided that luckily.

I would concur with the other advice on here ie:

- pay the Penalty Fare and Fare demanded (£53.30) ASAP to resolve the matter

- do not waste any further time on an Appeal, I do not believe you would win

- have a look through your Railcard conditions so you know when you can use it and on what time trains (esp weekdays)

- avoid making this mistake again as the Railway typically checks addresses and if you have had a Penalty Fare before (as you now have) they are much less likely to issue one again in future and more likely to refer you to their Revenue Protection team for possible prosecution for Fare Evasion - and that is best avoided.

Hope all this helps.

should I just get this headache out the way & pay for the fine while its still reduced

Yep - pay the Penalty Fare before the headache becomes a bad migraine....

 

[Doppleganger]

Thanks for clarifying the various points.

Basically if you check the main T&Cs of your Railcard you will see it is subject to a minimum fare at the time you travelled, as mentioned by other people. So you have essentially been travelling on a Railcard Discounted ticket at a time when that is not permitted, thus your ticket has no validity (and the railway company would also be able to have prosecuted you, which is much worse, as you would get a criminal record as well as a court fine and have to pay the fare and railway costs of prosecuting you - probably all add up to about c£400 maybe) you have avoided that luckily.

I would concur with the other advice on here ie:

- pay the Penalty Fare and Fare demanded (£53.30) ASAP to resolve the matter

- do not waste any further time on an Appeal, I do not believe you would win

- have a look through your Railcard conditions so you know when you can use it and on what time trains (esp weekdays)

- avoid making this mistake again as the Railway typically checks addresses and if you have had a Penalty Fare before (as you now have) they are much less likely to issue one again in future and more likely to refer you to their Revenue Protection team for possible prosecution for Fare Evasion - and that is best avoided.

Hope all this helps.

Thanks for the reply everybody &Westernlancer - just the consequences of me not reading the T&C and just an expensive life lesson i guess

But before I pay this I want to make some of my clarification clear

I've already sent the 2nd but since I got my answer from everyone, when I pay will that just delete the appeal or mark it as already payed so they don't look at it

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Getting confused here.

There are fairly regular midweek departures from Dudley Port to Wolverhampton at 0927, 0957 and 1027 and thereafter at half hourly intervals. Journey time is usually ten minutes.

@Doppleganger. Which time train did you actually travel on, presume this was on Wednesday 22nd March 2023?

i travelled on the 9:27 with a 10:27 ticket

Thanks for clarifying. Presumably booking a ticket for the 1027 departure on Trainline allowed the cheaper railcard discounted off peak (day return?) fare to be enabled to be purchased, which shouldn't have been possible, wouldn't be valid midweek for the 0927 departure.

 

[WesternLancer]

But before I pay this I want to make some of my clarification clear

I've already sent the 2nd but since I got my answer from everyone, when I pay will that just delete the appeal or mark it as already payed so they don't look at it

I don't know on this question, but suspect that if you pay it it prevents any risk of the sum increasing so that is best thing to do 1st.

You can then probably just let the Appeal process play out (I'd be confident in it being rejected anyway) - keep copies of all messages and correspondence and keep a record of you paying the Penalty they are demanding - all as proof - and hang on to them for a good while in case of crossed wires their end.

Others may be able to answer about that will happen.

You could always e-mail as a follow up to your 2nd Appeal to say 'I have now paid the Penalty fare demanded and would like my subsequent 2nd Appeal to be ignored' or some such wording. Juts quote the ref numbers and your name and address in that and leave them to sort it out.

 

[Doppleganger]

Thanks for clarifying. Presumably booking a ticket for the 1027 departure on Trainline allowed the cheaper railcard discounted off peak (day return?) fare to be enabled to be purchased, which shouldn't have been possible, wouldn't be valid midweek for the 0927 departure.

i use the trainpal app

 

[Haywain]

i use the trainpal app

The point still stands that you have deliberately been buying tickets for a later and cheaper train than you have been using, so it should come as no surprise that sooner or later you encounter a problem doing so. You should also consider that had you been reported for potential prosecution there would be a clear trail of evidence of doing this regularly, which could be considered fare evasion.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

i use the trainpal app

Noted. Probably similar issue with them. We've had one or two folk on here not being able to book a discounted ticket for the next available departure, this for one reason or another, and who have booked their ticket, on an app, for a later train, at a time when discounted tickets are showing as available/valid, but then have travelled early.

Not all circumstances are necessarily identical, hence the various clarificatory questions but as @Haywain has just mentioned, probably for the best if you don't do this again, and you certainly don't want the train company's investigation team to trawl through your ticket purchasing history to look for any previous similar circumstances if you've ever done this before.

 

[Watershed]

Can you clarify whether you actually took the 10:27 service to Wolverhampton? Or did you simply select this and then take an earlier train?

Have you previously used Railcard-discounted tickets before 10am (that cost less than the minimum fare of £12 which applies to certain Railcards before 10am)?

A Railcard discounted ticket is not fundamentally invalid before 10am, but it requires payment of the excess to the undiscounted, or £12 minimum, fare. As such, you shouldn't have been issued with a Penalty Fare even if you did travel before 10am.

However, if there is evidence that you have repeatedly travelled before 10am on fares discounted to less than £12, there could be an allegation that you have travelled without paying the correct fare, and with intent to avoid payment. Therefore your purchase and travel history may be relevant in that respect.

I would disagree with others that there are no grounds for appeal here. Firstly, as always you can challenge the operator to prove that the required signage was in place at all entrances to your origin station. It is for the operator to disprove any allegation you bring, and signage is definitely non-compliant at several of the stations in the West Midlands in my experience.

Furthermore, as previously mentioned, a Penalty Fare cannot be issued merely for a ticket that is invalid due to a time restriction. An excess is the correct outcome for that situation, as stated in condition 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

Finally, I would note that now that you have brought a first stage appeal and this has been decided (presumably without you having been notified that the Penalty Fare has been cancelled), you can no longer be prosecuted in relation to this incident. The only recourse available to the operator, should you decide not to pay the wrongly issued Penalty Fare, would be to bring a civil claim against you for the value of the Penalty Fare.

We have never heard of an operator doing this before, although that obviously isn't to say they would never do so. It is perhaps more likely that they might prosecute you even though the Penalty Fares Regulations don't allow them to do so in these circumstances. Which approach you take is something you'll have to make your own decision on, but certainly the one thing that there's no harm in doing is sending in a further appeal.

Feel free to post a draft appeal here and I'm sure you'll receive some feedback on it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Can you clarify whether you actually took the 10:27 service to Wolverhampton? Or did you simply select this and then take an earlier train?

Was mentioned in post #18.

i travelled on the 9:27 with a 10:27 ticket

 

[fandroid]

If you are going to do this journey regularly, I think you need to understand exactly how much you should be paying and when using your Railcard is worthwhile. If the train leaves Dudley Port before 10am Monday to Friday excluding Bank Holidays, your Railcard is useless and you should generally pay £3.30 Single or £5.00 Return. These are Anytime prices. If it's the 09.57 then an Offpeak Return is valid. But you still cannot use your Railcard to discount that fare further. If the train is due to leave after 10am then you can apply your Railcard discount and save a few pennies. As it is you've been clobbered for £53.30 on top of the fare you already paid. Quite correctly it seems!

If you use Trainpal correctly, it will be telling you this already, but you focussed on an incorrect understanding of when Offpeak applies to your journey and over-rode what the App was plainly telling you.

If you want help in understanding how to get correct tickets for journeys you plan, ask on the Fares Advice & Policy forum here and there will be plenty of expert advice available.

Edit: I've since seen what @Watershed has written. The OP seems to have regularly travelled on a discounted ticket before their Railcard was valid. Only they can decide whether to still challenge the Penalty Fare, but it seems that their misunderstanding of how Offpeak works with some added confusion about how that relates to Railcard validity has possibly caused them to effectively admit doing it more than once in the wording of their appeals.

They have come to the attention of the Train Company, so might be vulnerable to prosecution if even small things go wrong in future. I would advise saying sorry and paying up.

2nd Edit! I've corrected the fare info so that poor advice isn't left here permanently. Apologies

 

[WesternLancer]

Can you clarify whether you actually took the 10:27 service to Wolverhampton? Or did you simply select this and then take an earlier train?

Have you previously used Railcard-discounted tickets before 10am (that cost less than the minimum fare of £12 which applies to certain Railcards before 10am)?

A Railcard discounted ticket is not fundamentally invalid before 10am, but it requires payment of the excess to the undiscounted, or £12 minimum, fare. As such, you shouldn't have been issued with a Penalty Fare even if you did travel before 10am.

However, if there is evidence that you have repeatedly travelled before 10am on fares discounted to less than £12, there could be an allegation that you have travelled without paying the correct fare, and with intent to avoid payment. Therefore your purchase and travel history may be relevant in that respect.

I would disagree with others that there are no grounds for appeal here. Firstly, as always you can challenge the operator to prove that the required signage was in place at all entrances to your origin station. It is for the operator to disprove any allegation you bring, and signage is definitely non-compliant at several of the stations in the West Midlands in my experience.

Furthermore, as previously mentioned, a Penalty Fare cannot be issued merely for a ticket that is invalid due to a time restriction. An excess is the correct outcome for that situation, as stated in condition 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

Finally, I would note that now that you have brought a first stage appeal and this has been decided (presumably without you having been notified that the Penalty Fare has been cancelled), you can no longer be prosecuted in relation to this incident. The only recourse available to the operator, should you decide not to pay the wrongly issued Penalty Fare, would be to bring a civil claim against you for the value of the Penalty Fare.

We have never heard of an operator doing this before, although that obviously isn't to say they would never do so. It is perhaps more likely that they might prosecute you even though the Penalty Fares Regulations don't allow them to do so in these circumstances. Which approach you take is something you'll have to make your own decision on, but certainly the one thing that there's no harm in doing is sending in a further appeal.

Feel free to post a draft appeal here and I'm sure you'll receive some feedback on it.

Thanks Watershed - this is all fair comment actually.

I guess for @Doppleganger - who is not perhaps as fully familiar with the ins and outs of the complex ticket rules as many of us here - what you are saying is that an Appeal could / should be based on the fact that instead of issuing a Penalty Fare the Train staff should have charged an Excess Fare to make the ticket held valid before 10am (ie basically made the OP pay £3.30 instead of £2.20 or charged them £1.10 excess).

This could save the OP a fair sum.

However, this has to be set against the risk of the Railway company looking ito it more closely and detecting through ticket purchase history that what the OP did and got stopped for may have been done on regular basis in the past (even if by completely innocent mistake) and choose to initiate prosecution for fare evasion.

I can't personally give any indication of the risk of this so it would be up to @Doppleganger to decide which option they want to go for.

If they wish to pursue the Appeal on the basis that an Excess Fare should have been charged I am sure people here will help with that.

A course of action could be to Pay the Penalty Fare, pursue the matter further (the Excess Fare angle) and ask for the Penalty Fare to be refunded if the Railway company accept their staff did the wrong thing by not requesting an Excess Fare payment instead of issuing a Penalty Fare.

It's going to depend on the extent to which the OP wishes to argue this point.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If the train leaves Dudley Port before 10am Monday to Friday excluding Bank Holidays, your Railcard is useless and you should pay £3.30 Single or £3.40 Return.

£3.40 midweek on the 0957 (Off Peak Day Return fare, which is normally only valid outward at or after 0930) or £5.00 (Anytime Day Return fare) if travelling midweek beforehand, such as on the 0927.

Or there's the £3.30 Anytime Day Single fare if travelling one-way.

 

[Doppleganger]

Can you clarify whether you actually took the 10:27 service to Wolverhampton? Or did you simply select this and then take an earlier train?

Have you previously used Railcard-discounted tickets before 10am (that cost less than the minimum fare of £12 which applies to certain Railcards before 10am)?

A Railcard discounted ticket is not fundamentally invalid before 10am, but it requires payment of the excess to the undiscounted, or £12 minimum, fare. As such, you shouldn't have been issued with a Penalty Fare even if you did travel before 10am.

However, if there is evidence that you have repeatedly travelled before 10am on fares discounted to less than £12, there could be an allegation that you have travelled without paying the correct fare, and with intent to avoid payment. Therefore your purchase and travel history may be relevant in that respect.

I would disagree with others that there are no grounds for appeal here. Firstly, as always you can challenge the operator to prove that the required signage was in place at all entrances to your origin station. It is for the operator to disprove any allegation you bring, and signage is definitely non-compliant at several of the stations in the West Midlands in my experience.

Furthermore, as previously mentioned, a Penalty Fare cannot be issued merely for a ticket that is invalid due to a time restriction. An excess is the correct outcome for that situation, as stated in condition 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

Finally, I would note that now that you have brought a first stage appeal and this has been decided (presumably without you having been notified that the Penalty Fare has been cancelled), you can no longer be prosecuted in relation to this incident. The only recourse available to the operator, should you decide not to pay the wrongly issued Penalty Fare, would be to bring a civil claim against you for the value of the Penalty Fare.

We have never heard of an operator doing this before, although that obviously isn't to say they would never do so. It is perhaps more likely that they might prosecute you even though the Penalty Fares Regulations don't allow them to do so in these circumstances. Which approach you take is something you'll have to make your own decision on, but certainly the one thing that there's no harm in doing is sending in a further appeal.

Feel free to post a draft appeal here and I'm sure you'll receive some feedback on it.

Basically like i said ive only been regularly the train from 2 places, dudley port to wolverhampton and so forth before my means of travel was the bus and thats it.

like most young people they dont read the T&C which i also did and led me to this sitation. I havent been paying the excess of the undiscounted price or the £12 min and have been selecting the 10:27 train but riding on the 9:27 train and using that same ticket to get past the barriers & like i said i havent been stop by the local staff on the barriers apart from that specific inpector [wearing purple i think] therefore until now ive doing this is as i havent been stop before leading me to assum that i was'nt doing anything wrong

Im happy to hear that i wont be prosecuted but since ive been doing this regualary without being aware of it being wrong i dont really have the time & mind power to go through this civil claim where they most likely dig up from train pal my travel history & probs prosecute me plus i dont think a good arguemnt is me not reading the T&C and being unware that what ive been doing is wrong.

from the info i gathered to answer your question of giving a penalty fare for a time restriction - its probably because even though wovlo have an off peak time of 9:30 i still ride the train before 10am

its too late though as i've already paid the fare before it turned into £103.30 and thats the harm of going further as on 13th is my last day to pay the reduced fare

does anyone know what happens now?

so they've logged me for having 1 penalty fare been issued and paid for - what other actions do precisely if anyone knows