Advice Only for Greater Anglia - Delay Repay Fraud

[eoff]

Then it will perhaps surprise you to learn that not only do TOCs conduct their own criminal investigations (though some use a shoddy third-party outfit) but indeed prosecute their own criminal cases at court! You might want to have a read through the 'Legal' section of our ticketing guide (here) for more information.*

Note that I'm perfectly aware that the TOCs can take a case to court. The term "criminal investigation" seems quite specific, is mentioned in various legislation and typically applies to the police, I have yet to find any mention in law of who the "other" people are who can conduct criminal investigations and would presumably have to meet the same standards.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Note that I'm perfectly aware that the TOCs can take a case to court. The term "criminal investigation" seems quite specific, is mentioned in various legislation and typically applies to the police, I have yet to find any mention in law of who the "other" people are who can conduct criminal investigations and would presumably have to meet the same standards.

As I've said before, investigation is completely unregulated, aside from having to comply with whatever laws everybody else has to comply with, e.g. Data Protection. You don't even need an SIA license (yet anyway) to be a private investigator.

Anyone can start their own criminal investigations into anyone and anything. However with some specific powers only available to the police etc, the investigation may not always get very far, however the rail industry have access to lots of their own data sources, experts and legal teams which make investigation and prosecution relatively straightforward without even needing extra powers.

However, once the investigation is complete, the prosecution process itself is regulated, although there is a surprising amount of flexibility and latitude afforded within the relatively informal Magistrates Court. However, cases prosecuted on indictment will have to be pretty watertight procedurally.

 

[MotCO]

Yes, I do have a J first name. I just want to say as well that the reason I am a new joiner is because I googled 'delay repay fraud' and this forum and a MSE expert forum came up. This had the most traffic, so I signed up.

Did you claim personally, or through a third party company?

 

[87electric]

I am not sure that is “fishy” in and of itself; if AGA sent out a large batch of letters in one go it is entirely possible they arrived all at the same time.

I remain sceptical. Uploads of each new forum member’s received letters would convince me, but I’m not asking them to do that. They have come here for info and my ticketing knowledge isn’t that hot.

 

[GreenTea]

I replied using the Delay Repay website. I didn’t even know about Genie or whatever it’s called. I just used their website.

Here you go 87electric. I have even tried to keep the J in for you!!!

 

[AlterEgo]

Many people will claim for journeys of which there is no actual proof what train they intended to catch. The system requires a certain level of trust between the parties in order to function and absent that it basically falls apart. Now of course a TOC may wish to check the validity of some of these claims more closely where it spots a pattern emerging ("hmm, Mr Smith does seem to manage to end up being 'delayed' a lot more than you'd expect and always seems to conveniently be intending to catch the only delayed train on his season ticket route") but outside of that a lack of evidence that you intended to catch a specific train really isn't proof of anything one way or another.

I have ended up being delayed whilst having never left home because I could see the train service was up the spout so didn't bother leaving until it was clearly sorted out. I still claimed Delay Repay as I had been delayed (just from the comfort of my bed rather a cold platform) and was able to offer precisely zero proof that of the service I claimed for I had intended to catch.

This is a valid point.

Delay Repay is essentially an honesty box system. Abuse is rife and catching people bang to rights is quite difficult. There is evidently something very alarming - to the TOC at least - about the claim patterns of the posters in this thread for GA to contact them.

We have already had someone say at the start of the thread that essentially they just claim for delays the subscription service tells them about with no correlation as to whether they travelled on it or not.

 

[MotCO]

I replied using the Delay Repay website. I didn’t even know about Genie or whatever it’s called. I just used their website.

Thanks. There was a suggestion further up that GA was targetting only those who used Genie, but that is obviously not the case. It must just be a trawl of claims which look strange (and submitted by people whose names begin with J?)

 

[35B]

That image is a useful reminder that the letters are not just fishing, but (as per the OP) specific questions about specific journeys/claims.

 

[ashkeba]

I am a silent onlooker and like to read this section
I agree there are a lot of things that do not add up and "seems fishy" to me.
It is stated that someone can just claim delay repay by sitting at home.

And why not? Nicer to wait at home if train is cancelled rather than stand on windy rural station mile away for an hour.

Someone cannot stand up on a train yet can do 30 minutes walk to their station.

That seems OK to me- I can walk with stick but balancing on a moving train is much more difficult!

Did not keep a copy or note when they applied for their claim.

I only keep notes for busimess travel claims. For personal or medical jourmeys, I could not prove in 2019. I fear getting a GA letter but I think most of my claims will have been to GN or maybe Thameslink.

 

[GreenTea]

I emailed Andy Hillier asking for more information and he (or someone in the team) replied with a list of journeys where I had claimed that cancelled trains were 120 minutes late. I was told this is incorrect as I was not 120 minutes late. Basically, I have been filling out the Delay Repay website incorrectly. I have now been asked how I would like to proceed.... The thing is, why did they approve the claim in the first place if I had claimed incorrectly.

 

[Titfield]

And why not? Nicer to wait at home if train is cancelled rather than stand on windy rural station mile away for an hour.

Because there should be provable intent to travel.

Otherwise if you were working from home (authorised) you could look up a delay and submit a claim even though you had no need or intention of travelling.

In fact you could be on annual leaving sunning yourself in Barbados or wherever and look up a delay and submit a claim.

Perhaps there has been a very significant uptick in claims relative to passenger numbers / number of delayed trains and GA have decided that this is indicative of an unlikely change in passenger behaviour and thus are scrutinising claims made and paid to try and establish what has caused this change in behaviour.

If systems based in part on trust are abused then it is inevitable that eventually they will come under scrutiny and changes made to reduce the abuse.

Legitimate claims should and must be paid but surely fake claims should be viewed in the same way as "fare dodging" and can not be condoned.

 

[ashkeba]

Because there should be provable intent to travel.

Otherwise if you were working from home (authorised) you could look up a delay and submit a claim even though you had no need or intention of travelling.

I probably could prove it with appointment letters or meeting agendas in the 28 days or whstever to make a claim but I do not remember being told I need to keep that prove for a year or more.

I agree that fake claims should be rejected but sure they should be rejected not paid and then challenged long after evidence will be disposed of. I also disagree that we should have to go to stations for trains we know to be cancelled, or go early for delayed trains, else what is point of train running info apps, including some by TOCs.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thank you all for your concerns regarding whether something "fishy" is going on or not regarding various members joining up. We are aware of the concerns and so I would ask that we leave any further comments off the thread as they are not helpful in helping any of the posters seeking assistance. As a reminder if anyone does have concerns the correct method of raising those is to use the 'Report' button rather than take a thread potentially off-topic.

Thanks,
ainsworth74

 

[NSB2017]

I emailed Andy Hillier asking for more information and he (or someone in the team) replied with a list of journeys where I had claimed that cancelled trains were 120 minutes late. I was told this is incorrect as I was not 120 minutes late. Basically, I have been filling out the Delay Repay website incorrectly. I have now been asked how I would like to proceed.... The thing is, why did they approve the claim in the first place if I had claimed incorrectly.

Were you completing the forms incorrectly intentionally or in error? How delayed were you with regards to the journeys you claimed a delay of 120 minutes for?

 

[GreenTea]

I had filled in a few in genuine error. You have to say why you are claiming and even if you say 'Cancelled' it asks you to fill in a time, so I would fill in 120+ min delay as that was the longest delay and the one I thought most accurately reflected a cancelled train. What it actually means is how late I was to my destination as a result of cancelled train and me having to get the next train. I think.

 

[Chew Chew]

I emailed Andy Hillier asking for more information and he (or someone in the team) replied with a list of journeys where I had claimed that cancelled trains were 120 minutes late. I was told this is incorrect as I was not 120 minutes late. Basically, I have been filling out the Delay Repay website incorrectly. I have now been asked how I would like to proceed.... The thing is, why did they approve the claim in the first place if I had claimed incorrectly.

On how many occasions did you make this 'mistake'?

How much extra DR did you receive that you were not entitled to?

Remember, YOU made the claim and not anybody else.

 

[jon0844]

And why not? Nicer to wait at home if train is cancelled rather than stand on windy rural station mile away for an hour.

As I said before, if you were at the station you might be put into a taxi or there might be a bus waiting to take you because the delays were quite severe.

You might still make a claim, but it might be for less money due to the delay being shorter.

 

[GreenTea]

Why have you written mistake like this: 'Mistake'? Are you suggesting I submitted false claims on purpose?

I have emailed AH today and just told the truth. What more can I do? He replied, very politely, explaining the situations and the incidents in question and I have paid up (plus an admin fee). It is all sorted now and I understand the error when I was submitting my claim.

 

[SteveM70]

As I said before, if you were at the station you might be put into a taxi or there might be a bus waiting to take you because the delays were quite severe.

You might still make a claim, but it might be for less money due to the delay being shorter.

Ive had this debate with Northern and I’ve won. If there’s chaos in Manchester, I’ll wait in the relative comfort of the coffee shop rather than standing in the smog of platform 6 at Victoria.

 

[sheff1]

Because there should be provable intent to travel.

If a TOC wants 'proof' you intended to travel on a cancelled they need to state upfront what constitutes such proof and how long it needs to be retained for. Then at the time of claim ask you to confirm you have the proof.

If they want the proof to be retained for well over a year, waving at the CCTV when you turn up at a rural station to find the train cancelled will not do much good, as CCTV footage is apparently only retained for a much shorter period. I suppose the TOC could state that you must use a help point and get a reference number (as with Manchester Metrolink) but as, to my knowledge, no TOC demands that you do that or even mandates any other proof then there is, seemingly, no requirement to have and keep proof.

If you, in fact, can point to a TOC(s) stating a requirement for proof then that would be helpful.

 

[Chew Chew]

Why have you written mistake like this: 'Mistake'? Are you suggesting I submitted false claims on purpose?

I have emailed AH today and just told the truth. What more can I do? He replied, very politely, explaining the situations and the incidents in question and I have paid up (plus an admin fee). It is all sorted now and I understand the error when I was submitting my claim.

I wrote it as that as, IMO, to errouneously claim once is an accident, to continue to do it shows a pattern. If you weren't delayed for over 2 hours why claim for that delay?

Anyway, it is all sorted now.

 

[Jo78]

Ive had this debate with Northern and I’ve won. If there’s chaos in Manchester, I’ll wait in the relative comfort of the coffee shop rather than standing in the smog of platform 6 at Victoria.

I’ve usually had to pay for a taxi or share as there are 45 minutes in between trains peak and 1 an hour off peak.

 

[maniacmartin]

It is a common misconception that Delay Repay is claimed on how late the trains use intended to use are, rather than how late you are arriving at your destination (which could be less if there were alternative trains to take). We get many posts on this very forum where people have got it wrong. Greater Anglia's PDF claim form is much more misleading than other TOCs in this respect. It says:

With our Delay Repay scheme, if your train is delayed by 15 minutes or more you can claim compensation.
• If your train is delayed by 15 to 29 minutes you will be entitled to 25% of the cost of your single ticket or 12.5% of the cost of your return ticket.
• If your train is delayed by 30 to 59 minutes you will be entitled to 50% of the cost of your single ticket or 25% of the cost of your return ticket.
• If you are delayed between 60 and 119 minutesyou will be entitled to 100% of the cost of your one way ticket or 50% of the cost of your return ticket.
• If you are delayed by 120 minutes or moreyou will be entitled to 100% of the cost of your ticket whether single or return

(emphasis mine)

Given all the references to your train for delays under 60 minutes, I think it is their own fault if people are keying in how late their train is, instead of the delay to their journey.

I am not a lawyer and this post is not legal advice

 

[jon0844]

Ive had this debate with Northern and I’ve won. If there’s chaos in Manchester, I’ll wait in the relative comfort of the coffee shop rather than standing in the smog of platform 6 at Victoria.

As I said, it will depend on the circumstances.

 

[joharry]

Why have you written mistake like this: 'Mistake'? Are you suggesting I submitted false claims on purpose?

I have emailed AH today and just told the truth. What more can I do? He replied, very politely, explaining the situations and the incidents in question and I have paid up (plus an admin fee). It is all sorted now and I understand the error when I was submitting my claim.

have you paid and had confirmation of payment?

 

[PL80]

I have been following this thread with interest as I too received the 'letter' recently. At first I thought it was a mate on a wind up as it was printed on flimsy paper with scanned letterhead and not stamped via franking machine. Upon querying it I was provided with a list of the DR claims made, but not the ones they considered fraudulent.

My claims were made direct via GA, not 'genie' or whatever, and I had season tickets in paper form, not smartcard. I also commute from a rural station with no barriers.

Now, I can't remember what I did yesterday, nevermind a train journey year ago. I do about 500 train journeys a year. Some claims may well have been erroneous, but they were rejected at the time. It's likely there were services I DIDN'T claim for; I'm not the type that rushes on to the DR site the minute I get home after a delay. As a season ticket holder I could if I wanted to travel up and down the line all day. Whilst in reality I don't, it shouldn't be for GA to decide that I MUST get the same train to/from London each day, and every claim due to a diversion from such travel pattern is assumed to be fraudulent.

I sense this is a 'fishing' exercise by GA as let's face it the staff must be sat waiting for the tap on the shoulder atm. But sinse I have no way of proving I was on x train on x date, I will agree a settlement to just close the matter.

As others on this forum will attest, the GA service was an absolute shambles at times last year - cancellations, short-formed trains, speed-restrictions etc - so of course there would be an uptick in claims.
If I intended to defraud GA I wouldn't be doing it via a few snide £3 claims for a 15 min delay. I'd simply get on at my station (no barriers, remember), then when I got to London hop on the DLR and alight barrier-free. £5,000 saved p.a.

 

[Djgr]

There must come a point where this is simply unreasonable behaviour by the TOC.

It is hard enough expecting customers to go back one year to be able to "prove" their right to compensation for poor TOC performance. Are they going to delve two years, five years, ten? Surely the TOC has had a reasonable opportunity to assess the claim before it accepted it in the first place?

 

[Jo78]

Me too. My first name is J but not my surname and there is nothing fishy going on. We are individuals who have had these letters. Today I received a spreadsheets of those in question from October 2019 to March 2020, I use a branch line which weekly has delays and cancellations on the branch line. When analysing the spreadsheet one stood out that was evident that would look suspicious.this was a day I went into the office as the US law firm always have cover day and night, weekends and xmas. On that day I purchased a daily ticket to Stratford as I used the tube to St. Paul’s. I was working until 11pm, as I say regular for me, left work at 10;45 walked down to bank, tapped my Oyster card. Platform busy as signal fault And no trains moving on central line so went back up escalator tapped out and almost ran all the way to Liverpool Street. The 11:02 was delayed so I tapped my oyster as my ticket with GA was Stratford/witham and problems with the train, driver didn’t turn up for some time. I purchased a daily as I was flying to Singapore the next day. Yes to someone this does look odd as I always use Liverpool Street and it was late at night. I’ve logged onto my oyster account as it will show me tapping in at bank at 10:50 and back out at 10;52 and then after 11 at Liverpool Street. I am tired after a long day at work and just want to get home so wasn’t prepared to wait for the central line to Stratford.

I like your reply and true. We purchase season tickets like everyone else and don’t have to travel in the peak times. As I’ve said I work to GA I work for a US firm and lawyers need us to be there for 8am, weekends, to 11pm, meet and greet for seminars and entertainment, all of which is optional for staff and I am on such rota. My doctor and dentist is in my home town, which I attend and just days where I’ve felt unwell in the morning and gone in later. It’s almost a forgone conclusion on Monday mornings after engineering works the train is cancelled.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

There must come a point where this is simply unreasonable behaviour by the TOC.

It is hard enough expecting customers to go back one year to be able to "prove" their right to compensation for poor TOC performance. Are they going to delve two years, five years, ten? Surely the TOC has had a reasonable opportunity to assess the claim before it accepted it in the first place?

Doesn't seem at all unreasonable seeing as though several people on this forum alone accept they've done something wrong (whether fraudulent, accidental or mindless). I think some people are quite lucky to be getting a letter rather than a knock on the door from the police, for passengers who presumably travelled regularly with season tickets, and obviously became familiar with the delay repay claims process, several of you have displayed surprising naivety if not something more suspicious.

If you actually read the pages, you will find that I have explained already why a fraud investigator would permit suspicious claims to be approved in this situation, it provides an opportunity to observe those that customers that go on to repeatedly abuse it, whilst filtering out those making a one-off error. A honeytrap of sorts.

In everyday life, in England and Wales, the civil claim period is generally 6 years. So a TOC (in a civil procedure) can come after you for up to 6 years to recover the money theoretically. In criminal proceedings for fraud, there is no limit in the Crown Court.

You made a formal demand for compensation by using Delay Repay, and the TOC agreed to settle on the basis that everything you say is accurate, factual and representative of your experience. If they find out that was not the case, at any point, I do not feel it is unreasonable to seek an explanation, and if necessary, recover request a financial settlement themselves. Applying for compensation using the delay repay scheme should never be seen as a simple, casual matter. It's a legal process, and both you and the TOC have responsibility and liability. I can guarantee the TOC kept all their records, so you should to.

 

[Jo78]

I have been following this thread with interest as I too received the 'letter' recently. At first I thought it was a mate on a wind up as it was printed on flimsy paper with scanned letterhead and not stamped via franking machine. Upon querying it I was provided with a list of the DR claims made, but not the ones they considered fraudulent.

My claims were made direct via GA, not 'genie' or whatever, and I had season tickets in paper form, not smartcard. I also commute from a rural station with no barriers.

Now, I can't remember what I did yesterday, nevermind a train journey year ago. I do about 500 train journeys a year. Some claims may well have been erroneous, but they were rejected at the time. It's likely there were services I DIDN'T claim for; I'm not the type that rushes on to the DR site the minute I get home after a delay. As a season ticket holder I could if I wanted to travel up and down the line all day. Whilst in reality I don't, it shouldn't be for GA to decide that I MUST get the same train to/from London each day, and every claim due to a diversion from such travel pattern is assumed to be fraudulent.

I sense this is a 'fishing' exercise by GA as let's face it the staff must be sat waiting for the tap on the shoulder atm. But sinse I have no way of proving I was on x train on x date, I will agree a settlement to just close the matter.

As others on this forum will attest, the GA service was an absolute shambles at times last year - cancellations, short-formed trains, speed-restrictions etc - so of course there would be an uptick in claims.
If I intended to defraud GA I wouldn't be doing it via a few snide £3 claims for a 15 min delay. I'd simply get on at my station (no barriers, remember), then when I got to London hop on the DLR and alight barrier-free. £5,000 saved p.a.

Actually my husband thought it was a scam. I’m going to report it to my MP for what he’s worth. To explain this behaviour by GA when people are suffering all kinds of mental health, anxiety issues, job losses etc during this time. The claims were paid at the time and they are querying them 18 months later. It’s despicable to be honest.

Doesn't seem at all unreasonable seeing as though several people on this forum alone accept they've done something wrong (whether fraudulent, accidental or mindless). I think some people are quite lucky to be getting a letter rather than a knock on the door from the police, for passengers who presumably travelled regularly with season tickets, and obviously became familiar with the delay repay claims process, several of you have displayed surprising naivety if not something more suspicious.

If you actually read the pages, you will find that I have explained already why a fraud investigator would permit suspicious claims to be approved in this situation, it provides an opportunity to observe those that customers that go on to repeatedly abuse it, whilst filtering out those making a one-off error. A honeytrap of sorts.

What 18 months later and all at the same time. They’ve started this to clear a gap in their plunging revenue stream. If they could prove beyond reasonable doubt you were not delayed then fine they would just do that. We have come here for some help and guidance.