Advice Only for Greater Anglia - Delay Repay Fraud

[Jo78]

Seems to be a lot of pro train spotters on here and probably have never commuted regularly over a number of years in their life, or are they're part of the rail network to make people pay back as much as they can. The chat seems to go of track (excuse the pun) on all sorts of different subjects in an attempt to scaremonger like GA.

I agree, I believe it is a fishing exercise as their revenue is down due to no one travelling. They gave me a list and all claims were made correctly and I logged into tfl to get my Oyster card record for when I’ve done meet and greet at evening events but they don’t hold data that far back 12-18 months. I wrote and said all my claims were genuine but offered them a small amount which they accepted. It was the threat of going to the police is what made me do this even though I did nothing wrong but how can I remember 18 months ago and especially during this pandemic which has affected people in many ways. They’re a despicable company and I travel on a branch line so you can guarantee at least 2-3 times a week my outbound journey is cancelled. The amount of money I’ve paid in taxis, no amount of DP will cover. Good luck but offer a small amount.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree, I believe it is a fishing exercise as their revenue is down due to no one travelling. They gave me a list and all claims were made correctly and I logged into tfl to get my Oyster card record for when I’ve done meet and greet at evening events but they don’t hold data that far back 12-18 months. I wrote and said all my claims were genuine but offered them a small amount which they accepted. It was the threat of going to the police is what made me do this even though I did nothing wrong but how can I remember 18 months ago and especially during this pandemic which has affected people in many ways. They’re a despicable company and I travel on a branch line so you can guarantee at least 2-3 times a week my outbound journey is cancelled. The amount of money I’ve paid in taxis, no amount of DP will cover. Good luck but offer a small amount.

If you did nothing wrong and there is no evidence you did, you should have just let them go to the police. The coppers wouldn’t be interested. It’s not up to you to prove you didn’t do something; it’s up to the police and GA to prove you did.

 

[BusterEdwards]

I’ve had a letter from GA telling me that some delay repay claims look suspicious, with a list of 5 or 6 claims from February/March 2020 and asking for an explanation within seven days.

1) is it reasonable at this stage to ask them for details as to why they think the claims are suspicious?
2) are there any similar threads on here that I can’t see - or does anyone have experience of dealing with this? Any signposting/guidance appreciated.

As a (previous) 4/5 day a week commuter I obviously can’t remember delays from almost a year ago. Thanks in advance.

Just to add a little salt into the wounds with regard to making supposedly fraudulent delay repay claims. It has been tacitly agreed that by jumping into a taxi or sharing a lift further down the line (when my branch line train is cancelled) to join a train heading to London from a different start point is not a delay repay but an abandoned journey and so my historic claims (7 in the last 15 mths) are theoretically fraudulent .In agreeing to pay for my “error” i naively thought i would at least be able to recoup the monies through customer relations team (which i should have initially contacted apparently despite the fact that the station staff hand out delay repay forms to angry customers when the train is cancelled ) but have been told that there is a strict 28 day policy for refunds for such occurrences and so i am not entitled to claim for the above 7 claims.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just to add a little salt into the wounds with regard to making supposedly fraudulent delay repay claims. It has been tacitly agreed that by jumping into a taxi or sharing a lift further down the line (when my branch line train is cancelled) to join a train heading to London from a different start point is not a delay repay but an abandoned journey and so my historic claims (7 in the last 15 mths) are theoretically fraudulent .In agreeing to pay for my “error” i naively thought i would at least be able to recoup the monies through customer relations team (which i should have initially contacted apparently despite the fact that the station staff hand out delay repay forms to angry customers when the train is cancelled ) but have been told that there is a strict 28 day policy for refunds for such occurrences and so i am not entitled to claim for the above 7 claims.

There is nothing "theoretical" about fraud. You either claimed dishonestly or you did not.

In your case, there is clearly no dishonesty, as you believed you were using the correct method for compensating you for disruption. Nor, in fact, did you probably benefit in any way, as an abandoned journey refund is usually superior in value to a delay repay claim.

 

[maniacmartin]

It doesn't help that other TOCs (eg. GTR) explicitly tell you to use Delay Repay for abandoned journeys on season tickets.

I would argue that if you took a taxi to a station further down the line, then joined a train there, then the journey cannot be abandoned. You are still making the same journey, but using the taxi for part of it to mitigate the delay caused by the railway. As such, Delay Repay should still apply

 

[WesternLancer]

Again at risk of veering off topic but it seems to me like an industry watchdog body like Transport Focus needs to have a review of the whole Delay Repay process, looking for differing (and thus confusing) approached from different operators to it - the response to fraud, and clear guidelines about what a 'delay' is defined as - and make recc's to the industry that can be adopted overall.

Having said that - and this is now one of the longest threads on this part of the Forum so I've not checked carefully - if people are using apps / websites that help them find delayed trains that they 'might have been on' then applying on that basis is pretty clearly fraud - and I find it difficult to believe you would not know if you had done that.

I've done loads of DR claims (I always claim when delayed) but I know in every case that I was delayed. But it's annoying that with some TOCs you seem to have to appeal on almost every occasion!

 

[ashkeba]

- if people are using apps / websites that help them find delayed trains that they 'might have been on' then applying on that basis is pretty clearly fraud - and I find it difficult to believe you would not know if you had done that.

Surely it is only fraud if you apply for trains you were not on? Most apps seem to be just levelling the playing field of train company websites that make it difficult to check historical delays and make claims.

 

[AngryMan]

I have travelled into Liverpool Street many thousands of times, using the gate is required... However, it is common for:

1. a card or pass to fail at the gate, on which occasion either
1a. the guard flashes you through with their card
1b. you are ushered to the wheelchair access gate - where a guard will check your ticket or card and allow you through
2. The gates are open
3. The gates are not working
4. The platform/train to change and you are then asked to travel to another set of gates, at which point the card fails and the guard flashes you through on their card

 

[WesternLancer]

Surely it is only fraud if you apply for trains you were not on? Most apps seem to be just levelling the playing field of train company websites that make it difficult to check historical delays and make claims.

Yes, agree.

I got one of these letter also:

1. I requested a list
2. Some examples were provided.
3. I agreed to pay to make it go away (stipulating that I do not accept it is fraud but would pay for it to go away, given it was only a few claims from years of frequent travel)
4. A total made up of an unknown number of claims and a £50 charge for investigation was received...

Okay so far?

However... On analysis, the list assumed I should have caught trains that did not stop at my destination prior to the train I subsequently claimed against... I queried this and am waiting on a reply. I am fortunate I was able to see their mistake, many won't, I am livid.


I have travelled into Liverpool Street many thousands of times, using the gate is required... However, it is common for:

1. a card or pass not fail at the gate, on which occasion either
1a. the guard flashes you through with their card
1b. you are ushered to the wheelchair access gate - where a guard will check your ticket or card and allow you through
2. The gates are open
3. The gates are not working
4. The platform/train to change and you are then asked to travel to another set of gates, at which point the card fails and the guard flashes you through on their card

My problem is that I did not keep a record of these occurrences... Did anyone else?

On one specific claim, I remember getting to the train and seeing a wall of arms and legs... Apparently I was meant to board this train and the claim is considered fraud.

Well done for noticing it - and challenge it - if they don't accept your explanations try the Ombudsman or Transport Focus (the latter is probably better), copy it to your MP and ask them to raise it with DfT too. Make them prove their side of this. no one would be reasonably expected to keep a record of the occasions you cite - where common practice dictates such things.

 

[SteveM70]

I've done loads of DR claims (I always claim when delayed) but I know in every case that I was delayed. But it's annoying that with some TOCs you seem to have to appeal on almost every occasion

Out of interest, if you got a letter now challenging you on some of these claims - because you’d likely fit the bill as an “above average” claimant - could you prove each and every one was legitimate?

 

[MotCO]

We don't know their claim history, but given I used to work for a TOC doing Delay Repay, and given you could spot the dodgy claimants a mile off

If you could see that, why couldn't GA also see that, and refuse the pay out at the time?

The long term benefits haven't been touched upon much here, but the obvious ones are, these people (whether they were in the wrong or not) are much much less likely to claim delay repay again. With fewer claims comes another tidy little increase in profit.

Alternatively, those passengers who felt hard done by will now claim every single cent, whereas they may not have done previously. Also, we have seen at least two posters who reckon that they will no longer travel by train - reducing GA's profit.

For someone who buys a paper ticket from a machine, then gets delayed, but for whatever reason doesn't claim, how will the TOC "trace" them?

The ideal system would be for the barrier at the end of the journey to calculate the time between tapping in and tapping out, and if excessive, i.e. there was a delay, it would print out a voucher to accompany your claim for DR. The voucher would verify the times you made the journey, so could also be used by season ticket holders, and would provide evidence that you made the journey. The TOC would also be reassured that the chance of fraud was minimised.

 

[Andrew S]

The ideal system would be for the barrier at the end of the journey to calculate the time between tapping in and tapping out, and if excessive, i.e. there was a delay, it would print out a voucher to accompany your claim for DR. The voucher would verify the times you made the journey, so could also be used by season ticket holders, and would provide evidence that you made the journey. The TOC would also be reassured that the chance of fraud was minimised.

That would work well for smartcard users, whether daily tickets or season tickets. The printed voucher part could optionally be replaced by an email to the customer prompting them to claim.

This wouldn't work for paper ticket users though, which is what I was thinking of, unless the magnetic stripe stores the entry/exit times. Does anyone know if they do?

 

[WesternLancer]

Out of interest, if you got a letter now challenging you on some of these claims - because you’d likely fit the bill as an “above average” claimant - could you prove each and every one was legitimate?

Good question. In every case no I could not I guess - and my claims will be with several different Train companies (due to my travel patterns) so unless they have a central database I might not in fact show up as 'above avg'

BUT I do - if I remember (and if I'm late it would be in my mind), often take quick picture of the platform clock as I get off the train - mostly to help me fill in my claim and also in the event of it being different to what sites like Real Time Trains say - esp if I'm on the threshold of a level of compensation eg 31 mins late when they might claim train was 29 mins late. So in those cases I would be able to present the TOC with info that put me in a strong position 'balance of probabilities' wise as I've probably got the photos sitting on some download along with any other pics I've not sifted through and deleted!

But if I had made a claim, had it paid, knew I had not lied, I like to think I would tell them to come up with some clear evidence against me. But as it has not happened to me I guess I can't be 100% sure how I would react when faced with their allegation.

That would work well for smartcard users, whether daily tickets or season tickets. The printed voucher part could optionally be replaced by an email to the customer prompting them to claim.

This wouldn't work for paper ticket users though, which is what I was thinking of, unless the magnetic stripe stores the entry/exit times. Does anyone know if they do?

I suspect someone would just decide it was cheaper to pay out the DR claims than modify all the hardware at gates to make this happen!

We have to recall that D-R was a big DfT idea as we can all recall how much ministerial press releases welcoming all the benefits of every new franchises that included it shouted from the rafters about it - of course that was before DfT started taking all the revenue risk for every TOC post covid and now probably has a rather different idea on how much of a good idea D-R actually was. I bet rail travel vouchers are looking decidedly attractive these days, at meetings between DfT and HM Treasury...., those being vouchers only exchangeable in person at station ticket offices....

This being an example

Half of department’s rail operators now delivering improved delay repay compensation

Passengers on 50% of DfT operated franchises are now eligible for improved compensation schemes when their trains are delayed by 15 minutes or more.

www.gov.uk

and this, from 2016, shedding light on the origins of it all:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/568401/improving-access-to-passenger-compensation.pdf

Clue in the title of course!

 

[eoff]

i naively thought i would at least be able to recoup the monies through customer relations team (which i should have initially contacted apparently despite the fact that the station staff hand out delay repay forms to angry customers when the train is cancelled ) but have been told that there is a strict 28 day policy for refunds for such occurrences and so i am not entitled to claim for the above 7 claims.

As far as I can see there is no limit in you bringing a claim under the Consumer Rights Act (I'm not a lawyer though).

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

As far as I can see there is no limit in you bringing a claim under the Consumer Rights Act (I'm not a lawyer though).

The "problem" with Consumer Rights Act 2015 is that you are essentially the claimant, and the liability is initially placed on you to make your case.

I rate the chances of anyone recovering "taxi" fares via CRA as extremely poor, unless:

1) You were told to take a taxi by someone appearing to act with authority from the operator or;
2) Other (cheaper) public transport / alternatives did not exist (you have a legal duty to minimise your losses) or;
3) Staff were not available and the situation was extreme, i.e. last train of the day, exceptionally long delays AND;
4) The reason for the delay (or the length of the delay) was within their control as a competent service provider.

A commuter simply avoiding trying to be late for work, is unlikely to be able to reclaim taxi fares unless the above applies.

 

[Ediswan]

(you have a legal duty to minimise your losses)

This should be stated more often. I have always taken it to indicate that even if you are a 5* traveller, you can only claim for 1*.

 

[gingerheid]

Something that I think should be mentioned here to take things right back to first principals is "What is Fraud"? Fraud can only occur where someone acts dishonestly, with the intent of making a gain for themselves or another, or with the intent of causing a loss or a risk or a loss to another. In the context of fraud "dishonesty" is something that you can never achieve by accident (and not even if the accident might have been quite careless). You can only commit fraud if you decide one day that you are going to do something wrong.

Where someone whose train was cancelled claims the amount of money they are due (or believe to have been due), but under the wrong heading or to the wrong department, they could never conceivably commit fraud and GA know that well.

If Greater Anglia want to start a money claim saying that someone owes them money because they claimed from the wrong department then it's open for them to do so and they can try to prove it on balance of probability, but I can't imagine a court humouring a case where at the time there was a valid set off against other money also due from GA.

In those circumstances I'd tell GA to take a hike, and not particularly politely.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This should be stated more often. I have always taken it to indicate that even if you are a 5* traveller, you can only claim for 1*.

The principal is sound, but it's on a case by case basis really

You don't have to "suffer"... you just need to be able to justify your actions and show some due diligence.

If a reasonable public bus alternative was available and would cost £5, and the taxi cost £20 - depending on the circumstances, and it got to court (unlikely!) - a judge may find that the £5 is all that's recoverable.

Highly speculative though, but certainly can't just be hiring taxis and submitting receipts and expecting guaranteed reimbursement.

 

[NotGreaterA]

The principal is sound, but it's on a case by case basis really

You don't have to "suffer"... you just need to be able to justify your actions and show some due diligence.

If a reasonable public bus alternative was available and would cost £5, and the taxi cost £20 - depending on the circumstances, and it got to court (unlikely!) - a judge may find that the £5 is all that's recoverable.

Highly speculative though, but certainly can't just be hiring taxis and submitting receipts and expecting guaranteed reimbursement.

Ummm not sure you understand the different scenarios.... Get out of London and arrive at your branch line late and the last train haa gone.. it's midnight.... What do you do? Wait for the 6:30am bus?

 

[Andrew S]

I suspect someone would just decide it was cheaper to pay out the DR claims than modify all the hardware at gates to make this happen!

I agree, installing printers to produce vouchers which many people would not take is probably a counter-productive idea. If all smartcards are registered with contact details then an automatically generated email saying "Were you delayed? Claim here." would do the job just as well. The touch in/out data will be held by the TOC to verify claims anyway. The thing is a system relying on touch in/out data is only good if all stations have gates or readers, and all tickets are available on smartcards. In my experience daily tickets usually aren't available as a smartcard ticket. I'm getting off topic though.

For those who use paper tickets the option to pick up a paper form, or fill in something online will suffice.

 

[simonw]

I agree, installing printers to produce vouchers which many people would not take is probably a counter-productive idea. If all smartcards are registered with contact details then an automatically generated email saying "Were you delayed? Claim here." would do the job just as well. The touch in/out data will be held by the TOC to verify claims anyway. The thing is a system relying on touch in/out data is only good if all stations have gates or readers, and all tickets are available on smartcards. In my experience daily tickets usually aren't available as a smartcard ticket. I'm getting off topic though.

For those who use paper tickets the option to pick up a paper form, or fill in something online will suffice.

SWR do offer such a system for smartcards

 

[WesternLancer]

Ummm not sure you understand the different scenarios.... Get out of London and arrive at your branch line late and the last train haa gone.. it's midnight.... What do you do? Wait for the 6:30am bus?

Think Tazi H has considered that in post 743 really - ie it would be justifiable in that sit'n (and rail staff if advised en route should in theory have the taxis booked ready and waiting for you by alerting their duty control office.....tho that can be easier said than done).

 

[furlong]

Someone's gone to the press.

Miscarriage of justice: Commuter is targeted in fraud probe after receiving £1,100 payout for repeated train delays

Having paid nearly £7,000 for her annual season ticket but suffered from disruption on an almost daily basis, commuter Karen Ward felt entitled to claim compensation.

But the City of London insurance broker was ‘shocked’ when a manager from rail operator Greater Anglia’s fraud investigation team contacted her.

Mrs Ward said that before lockdown, the service was so bad almost half of her journeys were disrupted over a six-month period.

...

The letter did not specify which claims Greater Anglia was suspicious about and would only say: ‘Your claim pattern is not in line with what we see as standard.’

Mrs Ward had made the commute for 11 years prior to lockdown. She said: ‘I was shocked and affronted. I’m not a fraudster. The letter was frightening but I don’t like giving in... when I haven’t done anything wrong.’

She added that she fears the rail company is trying to recoup some of its losses from ‘easy targets’ as the pandemic has hit its income.

A Greater Anglia spokesman said the case was ‘under investigation’, adding: ‘We are sorry for any distress we have caused Mrs Ward.’

 

[MikeWh]

Good. Hopefully some others will now decide to do the same.

 

[Haywain]

Well, they’ve dealt with people with initials J and K, so this would appear to have a long way to go yet.

 

[NotGreaterA]

Someone's gone to the press.

Miscarriage of justice: Commuter is targeted in fraud probe after receiving £1,100 payout for repeated train delays

Good on her

 

[MP33]

I held a Greater Anglia season ticket until I surrendered it as I have not been using the service since the first lockdown. In the seven months of the last ticket I did not make any claims and for the two tickets before I only made 3 or 4 claims a year. I am able to use an alternative route during disruption and the delay would rarely be other an hour. In the evening if I had to get a bus for the last part of the journey, this would save time as the bus stops right outside my house.

There have been times when there has been major disruption when I have not been using the service. I have never made a claim as it is not worth the risk.

It appearsto me that the users of one branch line and long distance commuters are being targeted.

 

[AlterEgo]

Someone's gone to the press.

Miscarriage of justice: Commuter is targeted in fraud probe after receiving £1,100 payout for repeated train delays

118 claims over six months (which is what the article implies) is...a lot. A TOC assumes 232 single journeys in a six month period.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The news article and response from GA doesn't seem to imply the investigation has been stopped. Surely it gives GA even more of an incentive to find an illegitimate claim now?!

Generally I'm disapproving of such stories because:

1) It doesn't appear to have changed anything and only drew attention to the incident and herself;

2) People on this forum have accepted previously some of their claims have been essentially fraudulent, and it gives a misleading view that you should always stand your ground or run to the media, which, if you're not squeaky clean, is not going to end well.

That's not to say the lady in the story isn't genuine, of course, but I hope for her sake she hasn't dug a hole. Surely you go to the media AFTER the TOCS conclude you're innocent, rather than during the investigation? I'd also not want to highlight personally that I was being investigated for fraud, even if I was innocent, especially when she appears to be working in a regulated sector and will now likely have to declare to the relevant body she is being investigated for fraud.

 

[FOH]

118 claims over six months (which is what the article implies) is...a lot. A TOC assumes 232 single journeys in a six month period.

Indeed. I ensured that during the London Bridge rebuilding disaster performance on Southern I claimed every valid journey I was disrupted on (it felt like it was every day) and it totalled about 40 over more than a year.