Age discrimination on Railcards

[MML]

Am I the only one who objects to the use of blatant age discrimination for new railcards ?
Surely this should be illegal ?
What right does a 26-30 year old have to discount travel over a 25 or 31 year old?
It's as offensive as saying this fare is for a white customer or this railcard is for men only.

No issues with discount railcards but they should be available for the good of all without discrimination.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Am I the only one who objects to the use of blatant age discrimination for new railcards ?
Surely this should be illegal ?
What right does a 26-30 year old have to discount travel over a 25 or 31 year old?
It's as offensive as saying this fare is for a white customer or this railcard is for men only.

No issues with discount railcards but they should be available for the good of all without discrimination.

Yes, this is age discrimination. But not all forms of discrimination, and in particular age discrimination, are unlawful. With reference to age discrimination, if the discrimination is a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim", it is not unlawful, as per Section 13(2) of the Equality Act 2010.

Having Railcards that make rail travel more affordable for certain, typically less well off, parts of society is likely to be a legitimate aim - certainly in view of the fact that the TOCs will be under a legal obligation, thanks to Section 28(3) of the Railways Act 1993, to participate in a discount scheme for the "young, elderly or disabled".

Discriminating on the basis of gender or race is not permissible on the grounds of it being a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, and in any case it would be a lot harder to establish the legitimate aim.

As to whether it ought to be unlawful, if you think the exemption above should be scrapped, speak to your MP about it! (Not that I think it is likely to have any chance at all of gaining traction with the current political situation.)

In any case, scrapping this exemption would, for example, mean that everyone, no matter their age, would have to pay the same for car insurance (with it being adjusted solely by factors such as where they live and what car they drive). I'm sure older drivers would not be happy with the resultant massive increase in premiums!

Now, of course, there are those who support plans for a National Railcard that is available to all ages, and indeed such a concept exists in many other countries. Nevertheless, the vast majority of countries having such a scheme still do discriminate between different segments of society, at the very least in terms of the price and/or discount offered by the Railcard equivalent product.

 

[yorksrob]

Now, of course, there are those who support plans for a National Railcard that is available to all ages, and indeed such a concept exists in many other countries. Nevertheless, the vast majority of countries having such a scheme still do discriminate between different segments of society, at the very least in terms of the price and/or discount offered by the Railcard equivalent product.

Yes, I often wonder why other countries manage a decent National Railcard, when our own supposedly cutting edge, innovative paragon of private enterprise can't manage one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now, of course, there are those who support plans for a National Railcard that is available to all ages, and indeed such a concept exists in many other countries. Nevertheless, the vast majority of countries having such a scheme still do discriminate between different segments of society, at the very least in terms of the price and/or discount offered by the Railcard equivalent product.

It is in some ways a fairly blunt but cheap way of means testing.

 

[AM9]

Yes, this is age discrimination. But not all forms of discrimination, and in particular age discrimination, are unlawful. With reference to age discrimination, if the discrimination is a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim", it is not unlawful, as per Section 13(2) of the Equality Act 2010.

Having Railcards that make rail travel more affordable for certain, typically less well off, parts of society is likely to be a legitimate aim - certainly in view of the fact that the TOCs will be under a legal obligation, thanks to Section 28(3) of the Railways Act 1993, to participate in a discount scheme for the "young, elderly or disabled".

Discriminating on the basis of gender or race is not permissible on the grounds of it being a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, and in any case it would be a lot harder to establish the legitimate aim.

As to whether it ought to be unlawful, if you think the exemption above should be scrapped, speak to your MP about it! (Not that I think it is likely to have any chance at all of gaining traction with the current political situation.)

In any case, scrapping this exemption would, for example, mean that everyone, no matter their age, would have to pay the same for car insurance (with it being adjusted solely by factors such as where they live and what car they drive). I'm sure older drivers would not be happy with the resultant massive increase in premiums!

Now, of course, there are those who support plans for a National Railcard that is available to all ages, and indeed such a concept exists in many other countries. Nevertheless, the vast majority of countries having such a scheme still do discriminate between different segments of society, at the very least in terms of the price and/or discount offered by the Railcard equivalent product.

From a sales point of view, many of the railcards are designed to fill trains and use infrastructure that has been provided at great expense only because of peak hour services, (not so for 18-25 cards). However, as you say, there's nothing wrong with making offers to particular age groups, otherwise many wouldn't benefit from concession rates for attractions etc.. For those that do feel left out, they can rest assured that eventually, most of them will qualify for the 'seniors' discount.

 

[AM9]

Yes, I often wonder why other countries manage a decent National Railcard, when our own supposedly cutting edge, innovative paragon of private enterprise can't manage one.

Senior railcards were introduced in the '80s as were Network Railcards. Reduced fares for children have been around for over a century. Is there a clamour for making them pay the full adult fare at all times?

 

[yorksrob]

Senior railcards were introduced in the '80s as were Network Railcards. Reduced fares for children have been around for over a century. Is there a clamour for making them pay the full adult fare at all times?

Why would they pay the full adult fare if there was a National Railcard ? They would still have access to the railcard.

 

[jon0844]

With the new 16-17 railcard, I can see why they want to get everyone using the smartphone app - there will soon be loads of railcards to manage.

It really would be nice to see some attempt to simplify by offering everyone in the UK a discount, at any age, and not just those in the former Network Southeast area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the new 16-17 railcard

The what? What's the point in that when the 16-25 covers it? Is it cheaper?

 

[jon0844]

The what? What's the point in that when the 16-25 covers it? Is it cheaper?

It gives 50% off.

 

[theironroad]

The what? What's the point in that when the 16-25 covers it? Is it cheaper?

The BBC website is saying that the 16-17 Railcard will give child rate( rather than 1/3 off.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The BBC website is saying that the 16-17 Railcard will give child rate( rather than 1/3 off.)

Ah.

That seems a bit bizarre in terms of admin etc. Why not just extend child rate to the 18th birthday?

 

[Mag_seven]

We need a national "Bahn Card" like they have in Germany.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We need a national "Bahn Card" like they have in Germany.

Agreed. I'd pay quite a hefty sum for one (more if it was monthly direct debit) and would significantly increase rail use as a result.

 

[theironroad]

Ah.

That seems a bit bizarre in terms of admin etc. Why not just extend child rate to the 18th birthday?

Quite, unless it's going to be time limited or something. Seems that it's been announced today but won't start until September. More details to come I expect.

 

[kristiang85]

We need a national "Bahn Card" like they have in Germany.

I totally agree with this.

Or even just some form of loyalty scheme, where the more you spend on the network you can cash in later, e.g. with air miles, would be a vast improvement on what we have now.

This whole 26-30 railcard thing just seems so arbitrary. Although 'millennials' are seen as needing financial help, many are actually fine. What about those in older age brackets who are struggling?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, I agree that either having them in the child fare bracket, or the YP railcard bracket makes much more sense administratively.

Just more pussyfooting around the elephant in the room - the lack of a national railcard/bahncard by the Government/rail industry.

 

[jon0844]

I can't see why it wouldn't be easier to just raise the child rate age to 18, but it's something for the Government to announce on the day of the rail fare increases and hope it will deflect attention. Of course it won't, given the media gets at least three opportunities to write stories about fare rises and get voxpops from angry commuters, and people saying how it's cheaper to drive or fly.

In London it's already a right mess for children with different age restrictions, and even free travel for many if accompanied by an adult. Some level of standardisation would be good, although clearly it would likely mean privileges being taken away.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes, I often wonder why other countries manage a decent National Railcard, when our own supposedly cutting edge, innovative paragon of private enterprise can't manage one.

It could be argued that the majority of the country does have Railcard equivalent discounts - within the Gold Card area (which extends beyond the Network Area), the likes of a Hatton to Lapworth annual season is the de facto National Railcard, at a price that is steep compared to the cost of a regular Railcard, but probably fair considering the use it is likely to see from the average purchaser!

Ah.

That seems a bit bizarre in terms of admin etc. Why not just extend child rate to the 18th birthday?

Presumably because of difficulties regarding proof of age (seeing as there is no obligation to have ID at any age).

I think Railcards is definitely an area ripe for simplification. Far more so than changing the routes of tickets away from Any Permitted.

There ought to be two Railcards at most, a social Railcard for those who would qualify under the terms of Section 28 of the Railways Act 1993 (perhaps updated to take into account the likes of a Family and Friends Railcard, and to include recipients of certain benefits), and a regular Railcard for everyone else. The former should be valid at all times, give the 34% discount on all fares (including season tickets) and cost the current £30. The latter should only be valid after a set time (say, 09:30 Monday-Friday) but it should not have any minimum fare, and should give a 34% discount on all non-season fares, with a cost of say £80.

Those discounts should be reflected on Oyster and contactless rather than the current mess of different discounts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could be argued that the majority of the country does have Railcard equivalent discounts - within the Gold Card area (which extends beyond the Network Area), the likes of a Hatton to Lapworth annual season is the de facto National Railcard, at a price that is steep compared to the cost of a regular Railcard, but probably fair considering the use it is likely to see from the average purchaser!

The lack of InterCity validity is a killer for me. If it had such validity I'd certainly have one, and I'd imagine word would get around quite a lot more. The price is about right, too.

 

[yorksrob]

It could be argued that the majority of the country does have Railcard equivalent discounts - within the Gold Card area (which extends beyond the Network Area), the likes of a Hatton to Lapworth annual season is the de facto National Railcard, at a price that is steep compared to the cost of a regular Railcard, but probably fair considering the use it is likely to see from the average purchaser!

No, I don't think so at all. The gold card area is next to useless for anyone who does most of their travelling outside of the South East.

And the fact that its so expensive makes it far less affordable for those living just outside but might make some use, than an ordinary railcard.

 

[big all]

be careful what you ask for
men complained about women getting pensions at 60 so it equilized at 67
people complain similar houses in there road are paying less council tax all reassesed and council tax increased

 

[yorksrob]

be careful what you ask for
men complained about women getting pensions at 60 so it equilized at 67
people complain similar houses in there road are paying less council tax all reassesed and council tax increased

I would agree if people were just complaining about the unfairness of it all, however most are arguing for a National railcard which would enable residents across the country to enjoy a discount in exchange for a sunk cost.

 

[ac6000cw]

be careful what you ask for
men complained about women getting pensions at 60 so it equilized at 67
people complain similar houses in there road are paying less council tax all reassesed and council tax increased

Exactly - any changes to the system have to be a least 'overall revenue neutral' (or preferably generate more revenue).

The original principle behind railcards (in BR days) was to increase revenue by making it more likely that the holders of them would buy more tickets for off-peak train services that were not heavily loaded i.e. they were/are a commercial discount incentive scheme (with the bonus for the railway that it gets money from the railcard purchase up-front).

 

[30907]

There ought to be two Railcards at most, a social Railcard for those who would qualify under the terms of Section 28 of the Railways Act 1993 (perhaps updated to take into account the likes of a Family and Friends Railcard, and to include recipients of certain benefits), and a regular Railcard for everyone else.

I am not sure that any of the Railcards mentioned in the Act - which includes the F and F - are "social" in origin or intent. With the exception of the DSB, they were certainly introduced as commercial products.
Their inclusion in the Act is on a par with regulating Saver and Season fares, to make privatisation politically palatable, because of concerns that privatised companies would start ripping customers off.

 

[kristiang85]

The railcard system, like the tickets themselves, is now a complete mess - there are so many available now, all with completely different eligibility criteria, and it is unfair in that some people will not quality for any of them, depending on age, location, whether you're a couple, etc.

It needs simplification - i.e. under 18 and over state pension age, automatic qualification for discounts. The 18-25 (and indeed 26-30) should be put into a student railcard that you can buy very cheaply if you can prove you're a student in full-time education (with no age restrictions). Then everyone else, of whatever age, can be eligible for a national railcard with a flat 1/3 off fares for something like £100 PA.

Obviously also keep disabled railcards as is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I think one set of T&Cs but different prices. And as for that 16-17 thing, just extend child fare to 18.

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly - any changes to the system have to be a least 'overall revenue neutral' (or preferably generate more revenue).

The original principle behind railcards (in BR days) was to increase revenue by making it more likely that the holders of them would buy more tickets for off-peak train services that were not heavily loaded i.e. they were/are a commercial discount incentive scheme (with the bonus for the railway that it gets money from the railcard purchase up-front).

I think it was in around 2008 when Railfuture did a study which concluded that a national railcard scheme would increase revenue, on account of additional journeys and the sale of the cards themselves.

I'll try and find a link tonight.

 

[kristiang85]

I think it was in around 2008 when Railfuture did a study which concluded that a national railcard scheme would increase revenue, on account of additional journeys and the sale of the cards themselves.

I'll try and find a link tonight.

Is this the report you're referencing? https://www.railfuture.org.uk/display64

 

[yorksrob]

Is this the report you're referencing? https://www.railfuture.org.uk/display64

Yes, that'll be the one. Cheers.