Alcohol Bans

[GlitterUnicorn]

I assure you, it isn't working.

The intention was to remove the low end of the low end, the absolute minimum, which mostly refers to people who you're probably unlikely to run into on the street. Less the "let's get tanked up" market, and instead people on low incomes who drank themselves to death.

There aren't many drinks that are affected other than the cheapest spirits and some of the cheapest high strength beers and ciders. Previously it was possible to buy three litres of high strength white cider for £2.50, which contained a week's worth of units of alcohol. Some people were getting through a few of these bottles a day. The problems posed there should be obvious.

See here for some studies into the effects of this policy,

How dramatic! Grand conspiracy? Oh dear..

And where has anyone said anything about the developed world? It's nothing to do with the rest of the world - just in England.

And they are anything but an obscure lobby group, with many of their members involved in carrying out alcohol studies with Public Health England.

People should be allowed to have a drink if they want to but be mindful of the potential consequences for themselves and others around them if they overindulge, whether on a train or not. Regrettably the minority of idiots spoil things for the sensible majority as seems to be the case with so many things nowadays.

You're blaming this group for wanting to reduce alcohol consumption on ideological grounds - not on public health grounds. Yet almost every government in Europe recognises that reducing alcohol consumption is important for public health reasons. What Britain is doing is nothing unique, despite whatever malign influence this lobby group supposedly has.

 

[CHAPS2034]

You're blaming this group for wanting to reduce alcohol consumption on ideological grounds - not on public health grounds. Yet almost every government in Europe recognises that reducing alcohol consumption is important for public health reasons. What Britain is doing is nothing unique, despite whatever malign influence this lobby group supposedly has.

Nothing wrong wanting to reduce to sensible levels. But as I and others have pointed out, this outfit see it as a step on the way to their aim of eventually getting the sale of alcohol banned

That will of course be politically be suicidal for any government but they are in a position to influence government thinking about making buying alcohol far more difficult.

 

[greyman42]

That will of course be politically be suicidal for any government but they are in a position to influence government thinking about making buying alcohol far more difficult.

Sales of alcohol bring in a lot of tax revenue and provide millions of jobs in the hospitality industry.

 

[al78]

Nothing wrong wanting to reduce to sensible levels. But as I and others have pointed out, this outfit see it as a step on the way to their aim of eventually getting the sale of alcohol banned

That will of course be politically be suicidal for any government but they are in a position to influence government thinking about making buying alcohol far more difficult.

It's not going to happen, lets not get melodramatric.

 

[alangla]

50p per unit is £1 a pint near enough. Other than Tesco Value Vodka there surely can't be much left that cheap.

You’d be surprised. If you’re bored, try going onto one of the supermarket websites, entering delivery addresses in England, Scotland and Wales and compare the prices of different products. You’ll probably find that run of the mill stuff like Carling multi packs are significantly cheaper in England, especially if bought in a multi buy (banned in Scotland, not sure about Wales). The minimum pricing legislation, needless to say, has done little to nothing to address problem drinking here.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

You’d be surprised. If you’re bored, try going onto one of the supermarket websites, entering delivery addresses in England, Scotland and Wales and compare the prices of different products. You’ll probably find that run of the mill stuff like Carling multi packs are significantly cheaper in England, especially if bought in a multi buy (banned in Scotland, not sure about Wales). The minimum pricing legislation, needless to say, has done little to nothing to address problem drinking here.

That's your opinion, but it's not backed up by the evidence.

 

[185143]

No, I disagree with that. I enjoy a beer on the train back from wherever I'm going on a Saturday.

I personally believe that if there is trouble on train (any trouble, not just booze related) it should be allowable to summon the nearest local police if BTP are unavailable.

I was on the Night Riviera in August on a night where the police had to be summoned at Exeter. It was local police that turned up rather than BTP, though wether the fact that it was nearly 02:00 had an influence on that I obviously don't know.

 

[yorksrob]

I was on the Night Riviera in August on a night where the police had to be summoned at Exeter. It was local police that turned up rather than BTP, though wether the fact that it was nearly 02:00 had an influence on that I obviously don't know.

I expect the BTP are around all the time. Just depends on where.

Trouble on the Night Riviera ? What next !

 

[Bletchleyite]

You’d be surprised. If you’re bored, try going onto one of the supermarket websites, entering delivery addresses in England, Scotland and Wales and compare the prices of different products. You’ll probably find that run of the mill stuff like Carling multi packs are significantly cheaper in England, especially if bought in a multi buy (banned in Scotland, not sure about Wales). The minimum pricing legislation, needless to say, has done little to nothing to address problem drinking here.

I suspect to work well it'd need to be much higher, e.g. £1-2 per unit would bring supermarket prices close to pub prices.

It's not going to happen, lets not get melodramatric.

I wouldn't be surprised if it did, but it'll take 50-100 years to get there. People would have said that of tobacco 50 years ago, and alcohol causes far more problems than tobacco, and worse, most of those problems are caused to others, not the drinker who in most cases just has a headache the next morning.

 

[yorksrob]

I wouldn't be surprised if it did, but it'll take 50-100 years to get there. People would have said that of tobacco 50 years ago, and alcohol causes far more problems than tobacco, and worse, most of those problems are caused to others, not the drinker who in most cases just has a headache the next morning.

The late Roy Castle might have something to say about that hypothesis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The late Roy Castle might have something to say about that hypothesis.

I did say most, not all.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Surely we can come to some consensus that a limited alcohol ban on some trains is not the beginning of the downward spiral towards the ban of all alcohol?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely we can come to some consensus that a limited alcohol ban on some trains is not the beginning of the downward spiral towards the ban of all alcohol?

I don't think it is, but it is to me the way society is going when compared to 20 years ago. Most notably a lot of young people are shunning alcohol, and young people of course are the future of society.

 

[yorksrob]

Surely we can come to some consensus that a limited alcohol ban on some trains is not the beginning of the downward spiral towards the ban of all alcohol?

"a limited alcohol ban on some trains" is what we currently have in England.

Banning all alcohol on Scotrail, as an example is a slippery slope.

 

[dk1]

I don't think it is, but it is to me the way society is going when compared to 20 years ago. Most notably a lot of young people are shunning alcohol, and young people of course are the future of society.

Are young people shunning alcohol? I wonder why. Most of the young people I know drink more than I did at that age & that's saying something. I know some pre-load which was almost unheard of a few years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are young people shunning alcohol?

Certainly you hear of students being teetotal these days which was almost unheard of in the 90s. There also seems to be a move to spending money on electronics instead.

Pre-loading is just a way of saving money, really.

 

[dk1]

Certainly you hear of students being teetotal these days which was almost unheard of in the 90s. There also seems to be a move to spending money on electronics instead.

Pre-loading is just a way of saving money, really.

Teetotal students. That's mental & almost seems to negate the point of going to university. Not that I would know as I couldn't be bothered to see my time out at School let alone have any interest in further education.

 

[alangla]

That's your opinion, but it's not backed up by the evidence.

We may need to agree to disagree on this one, there's remarkably little evidence all round. Overall consumption has certainly fallen, but I was referring specifically to problem drinkers, where there doesn't really seem to be much data at all. In terms of underage drinking, the studies that have been done by the NHS indicate zero effect.
I've attached what I've found below, hopefully these aren't paywalled:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...pricing-fails-cut-underage-drinking-scotland/ - Daily Telegraph article citing an NHS Scotland study saying under-18s reported no change to their consumption or ability to obtain alcohol
https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/warning-that-minimum-alcohol-pricing-is-driving-drinkers-to-drugs/ - Sunday Post article titled "Warning that minimum alcohol pricing is driving drinkers to drugs"
https://eresearch.qmu.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/20.500.12289/4443/4443.pdf?sequence=4&isAllowed=y - Queen Margaret University research paper titled Heavy Drinkers’ Perspectives on Minimum Unit Pricing for Alcohol in Scotland: A Qualitative Interview Study

In terms of the differences in prices for run of the mill drinks between Scotland and England, a very quick look at asda.com shows Carling available in packs of 18 priced at 2 for £20. Using a Scottish delivery address shows the 18 pack as being priced at £15.84, so £31.68 for the same amount, or 58% more expensive. I'm sure there's other more extreme examples out there, but that's the first one I've looked at and I hope we can agree it's a fairly average brand of beer, not anything particularly cheap (e.g. an own-brand saver type) or expensive.

 

[cakefiend]

We may need to agree to disagree on this one, there's remarkably little evidence all round. Overall consumption has certainly fallen, but I was referring specifically to problem drinkers, where there doesn't really seem to be much data at all. In terms of underage drinking, the studies that have been done by the NHS indicate zero effect.
I've attached what I've found below, hopefully these aren't paywalled:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...pricing-fails-cut-underage-drinking-scotland/ - Daily Telegraph article citing an NHS Scotland study saying under-18s reported no change to their consumption or ability to obtain alcohol
https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/warning-that-minimum-alcohol-pricing-is-driving-drinkers-to-drugs/ - Sunday Post article titled "Warning that minimum alcohol pricing is driving drinkers to drugs"
https://eresearch.qmu.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/20.500.12289/4443/4443.pdf?sequence=4&isAllowed=y - Queen Margaret University research paper titled Heavy Drinkers’ Perspectives on Minimum Unit Pricing for Alcohol in Scotland: A Qualitative Interview Study

In terms of the differences in prices for run of the mill drinks between Scotland and England, a very quick look at asda.com shows Carling available in packs of 18 priced at 2 for £20. Using a Scottish delivery address shows the 18 pack as being priced at £15.84, so £31.68 for the same amount, or 58% more expensive. I'm sure there's other more extreme examples out there, but that's the first one I've looked at and I hope we can agree it's a fairly average brand of beer, not anything particularly cheap (e.g. an own-brand saver type) or expensive.

Context is important. The Sunday Post is a traditionally Labour supporting paper that is known for being a strong critic of the SNP Scottish Government, but it's also known for strong campaigning and investigative journalism. That said, this ain't one of their best pieces of work.

Their lead source is a single off licence owner quoting circumstantial evidence with no figures provided to back up their assertions.

A quick Google establishes that Dr Colvin is a consulting in paediatrics. I can't establish any link with him and research on harm reduction policy, but I'm happy to be corrected. Regardless, he states that he supports minimum pricing in his quote.

Next, the Scottish Drugs Forum - they say themselves “no clear evidence has emerged” that minimum pricing is pushing people to drugs. They mention street valium being used as a possible substitute, but the spokesperon for Simon Community Scotland (also quoted) says that it's more to do with the cheapness of said drug rather than the cost of alcohol.

Finally, Scottish Families Affected by Drugs and Alcohol, who say 5% of those contacting their helpline had mentioned that minimum pricing had resulted in problem drinkers switching to other types of alcohol. While that is genuinely concerning, there is not empirical evidence to stand up these claims. If there was something to back it up available, the reporter would have undoubtedly led their story with that.

Ultimately, this is a chat with a shop owner written down accompanied by a handful of wishy-washy quotes from third sector organisations that don't add any credence of note to the claims being made.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Certainly you hear of students being teetotal these days which was almost unheard of in the 90s. There also seems to be a move to spending money on electronics instead.

Pre-loading is just a way of saving money, really.

I think the 90s stereotype of University being primarily for drinking, with study a distant second, is severely outdated. Students still drink a huge amount though.

I don't think it's a matter of money, culture and society have just moved on,

We may need to agree to disagree on this one, there's remarkably little evidence all round. Overall consumption has certainly fallen, but I was referring specifically to problem drinkers, where there doesn't really seem to be much data at all. In terms of underage drinking, the studies that have been done by the NHS indicate zero effect.
I've attached what I've found below, hopefully these aren't paywalled:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...pricing-fails-cut-underage-drinking-scotland/ - Daily Telegraph article citing an NHS Scotland study saying under-18s reported no change to their consumption or ability to obtain alcohol
https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/warning-that-minimum-alcohol-pricing-is-driving-drinkers-to-drugs/ - Sunday Post article titled "Warning that minimum alcohol pricing is driving drinkers to drugs"
https://eresearch.qmu.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/20.500.12289/4443/4443.pdf?sequence=4&isAllowed=y - Queen Margaret University research paper titled Heavy Drinkers’ Perspectives on Minimum Unit Pricing for Alcohol in Scotland: A Qualitative Interview Study

In terms of the differences in prices for run of the mill drinks between Scotland and England, a very quick look at asda.com shows Carling available in packs of 18 priced at 2 for £20. Using a Scottish delivery address shows the 18 pack as being priced at £15.84, so £31.68 for the same amount, or 58% more expensive. I'm sure there's other more extreme examples out there, but that's the first one I've looked at and I hope we can agree it's a fairly average brand of beer, not anything particularly cheap (e.g. an own-brand saver type) or expensive.

There have been a couple of medical and public health studies into the policy, especially with regards to it's impact on "problem drinkers". With respect to this policy, problem drinkers are defined as drinkers who consume alcohol greatly in excess of the recommended safe level, to the point that it's seriously detrimental to their health. This is opposed to underage drinkers, or people who's drinking is linked to anti-social behaviour.

There's also a fair amount of research to back this up.

https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5274 - Examines what groups are the most affected by the policy. It concludes that moderate drinkers are minimally affected, while those who drink harmful amounts reduced their consumption by a substantial amount.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(13)62417-4/fulltext - As above, also attempts to model the health benefits of the policy, notes the link to decreased deaths, increased quality of life etc.

I won't link to them because of the multiple paywalls that journal articles are plagued with, but there are also a lot of articles documenting the attempts of Alcohol manufacturers and industry lobbyists to influence politicians and media coverage over this policy area. As Cakefiend has said, there are a lot of groups who's interests it would be in to muddy the waters around this issue.

You mention the price of a crate of Carling in Asda, which is one of the cheapest branded beers they sell. The policy affecting the price in that case though isn't minimum unit pricing. A separate law in Scotland bans multi-buy discounts on the sale of alcohol, hence that special offer wouldn't be legal. The regular price in Asda is £13, so the affect of minimum unit pricing is £2.84 at most, or just under 16p per can. If you buy the cans in packs of 4 there is little/no price difference.

If you were to buy Hawksridge 2 litre bottle of cider though you'd see the price rise from £2 to about £4.50. Supermarkets are responsible enough not to sell it but if you were to find two litres White Star Cider on sale in a corner shop somewhere then the price would rise from as little as £1.50 to about £8 or more. The stuff tastes like drain cleaner so virtually no responsible drinkers will take it, but it's popular among people who abuse alcohol. This is exactly what the policy is meant to target!

 

[LucyP]

Students are not turning into puritans! They are simply using more drugs and less alcohol. These are just three headlines/results for NHS publications from the last 2 years. There are many more.

Class A drug use 'at record levels due to young people' - BBC ...​

Drugs 'used by two in five students' - BBC News​

large and unexpected rise in overall drug use prevalence; 14.6% in 2014, to 24.3% in 2016 and 23.7% 2018.

 

[khib70]

Context is important. The Sunday Post is a traditionally Labour supporting paper that is known for being a strong critic of the SNP Scottish Government, but it's also known for strong campaigning and investigative journalism. That said, this ain't one of their best pieces of work.

Their lead source is a single off licence owner quoting circumstantial evidence with no figures provided to back up their assertions.

A quick Google establishes that Dr Colvin is a consulting in paediatrics. I can't establish any link with him and research on harm reduction policy, but I'm happy to be corrected. Regardless, he states that he supports minimum pricing in his quote.

Next, the Scottish Drugs Forum - they say themselves “no clear evidence has emerged” that minimum pricing is pushing people to drugs. They mention street valium being used as a possible substitute, but the spokesperon for Simon Community Scotland (also quoted) says that it's more to do with the cheapness of said drug rather than the cost of alcohol.

Finally, Scottish Families Affected by Drugs and Alcohol, who say 5% of those contacting their helpline had mentioned that minimum pricing had resulted in problem drinkers switching to other types of alcohol. While that is genuinely concerning, there is not empirical evidence to stand up these claims. If there was something to back it up available, the reporter would have undoubtedly led their story with that.

Ultimately, this is a chat with a shop owner written down accompanied by a handful of wishy-washy quotes from third sector organisations that don't add any credence of note to the claims being made

While the Sunday Post is undoubtedly a vehement critic of the SNP, it is a million miles away from "traditionally Labour". It is and always was, rampantly Conservative with both a small and capital 'c'. Its hostility to the SNP stems from its dogmatic Unionism. It is a product of the ultra Conservative, anti-union DC Thomson group.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Students are not turning into puritans! They are simply using more drugs and less alcohol. These are just three headlines/results for NHS publications from the last 2 years. There are many more.

Class A drug use 'at record levels due to young people' - BBC ...​

Drugs 'used by two in five students' - BBC News​

large and unexpected rise in overall drug use prevalence; 14.6% in 2014, to 24.3% in 2016 and 23.7% 2018.

It's anecdotal, but if I compare my own student experience at the start of the century with that of my niece nowadays, today's students seem far more open-minded about people choosing not to drink. One of my university friends was teetotal for personal reasons (a family member with a drinking problem) and got fed up of being treated as if he had sprouted a third arm from the top of his head when asking for a coke in the SU!

 

[yorksrob]

One of my university friends was teetotal for personal reasons (a family member with a drinking problem) and got fed up of being treated as if he had sprouted a third arm from the top of his head when asking for a coke in the SU!

To be fair, that would be handy when getting in a round !

 

[cakefiend]

While the Sunday Post is undoubtedly a vehement critic of the SNP, it is a million miles away from "traditionally Labour". It is and always was, rampantly Conservative with both a small and capital 'c'. Its hostility to the SNP stems from its dogmatic Unionism. It is a product of the ultra Conservative, anti-union DC Thomson group.

Have you read The Courier recently?

 

[al78]

Teetotal students. That's mental & almost seems to negate the point of going to university. Not that I would know as I couldn't be bothered to see my time out at School let alone have any interest in further education.

So that is where I went wrong, I thought I went to university to get a degree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So that is where I went wrong, I thought I went to university to get a degree.

It serves two purposes, really - a degree and life experiences. Some people need the latter more than others.

 

[al78]

It serves two purposes, really - a degree and life experiences. Some people need the latter more than others.

Yes the second was valuable for me, I had led a sheltered life up to the point I left home for uni. I never did get why students were so enthusiastic about alcohol. My parents introduced me to alcohol from a young age so throughout my childhood, it was normal for me to have a glass of wine with a meal when we ate out or occasionally at home. I was never a great fan of beer so never developed the urge to down several pints, usually one was enough. Being aware I had a low tolerance for alcohol also inhibited my enthusiasm for drinking more than one or two glasses of beer/wine at a time.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

It serves two purposes, really - a degree and life experiences. Some people need the latter more than others.

Honestly often I find that the problem is that my fellow students consider drinking to be a substitute for a personality and a source of life experience...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Honestly often I find that the problem is that my fellow students consider drinking to be a substitute for a personality and a source of life experience...

Not very many university students have much life experience, and often when they do it's due to sad circumstances e.g. family problems. I'd cut them some slack there - they're young. I'd say I went in a kid and left a proper adult.