All Line Rover [ALR] restrictions from 2 January 2011

[John @ home]

It is included as a 'Season ticket or Leisure pass' so you most certainly can use combinations of tickets without the train calling. However this is a complex issue, and I am not sure it is as simple as this. How is the restriction worded? if it says where you board, you can't really say you boarded at Harringay can you? That said, it may be valid, or it may not be, it needs careful analysis.

Yes, it certainly needs careful analysis. Even before these recent posts, I was puzzling over the curious choice of words. Perhaps the words have been chosen to attempt to avoid the ALR being used in conjunction with another ticket around 1000 M-F.

I can see lots of scope for conflict, for example the passenger with a reservation for a train immediately after 1000 who is refused access to the platforms until 1000 and misses the train.

Is this restriction unique in depending on when a train actually leaves a station, rather than when it is timed to leave? I expect debates on whether the 0935 Kings X - Leeds was running 5 or 7 minutes late when the passenger boarded at Stevenage.

My prediction is that the restriction will have to be re-worded.

 

[blackfive460]

Enough people are willing to pay the extra for convenience and speed to make that fare acceptable.

How can £230 be ludicrous if people are willing to pay it? Companies are run by people, who assess the circumstances, and decide that £230 is good value to get a highly paid executive speedily to London and back. If the fare was too high, they would not pay it. Nobody is forced to use the train.

But then there is always the 'distress purchase'.
For example; I need to be in London by 9AM. The journey by car would make this excessively difficult to do. Flying isn't an option. Neither is travelling the day before and staying over. What choice do I have?

 

[Chapeltom]

As someone planning to do an ALR next September I'm a bit dissappointed to say the least. It doesn't entirely affect the schedule I was going to do, I don't go to London until my 3rd day but wouldn't get there till 4pm (going via Norwich, Southend before anyone asks). The Cross Country bit doesn't affect me either as I'm planning on FGW sleeper to Penzance on the 3rd day. However despite the fact it wouldn't affect my personal schedule it will have a bearing if I want to do an ALR in 2012 or 2013.

 

[swidnod]

Hi Gang;

I'm disappointed at the introduction (possibly) of these restrictions....but I think that people who do ALRs for leisure can probably work around them. Those who use an ALR in preference to a 'normal' ticket will realise that a loophole, like many in all walks of life has eventually been closed. Doesn't mean to say that I agree with the introduction of restrictions though.

Secondly, is the HMF & Family Railcard easements being applied to all the other Regional rovers also???

Regards;
STU from EGDL
http://stusphotos.fotopic.net
(HMF Railcard holder!!!)

 

[Zoe]

The New St restriction will be difficult to enforce I think, are the XC train managers going to physically stop people getting of there, I think not.

Good luck getting through any ticket checks though.

 

[nedchester]

Good luck getting through any ticket checks though.

Why you get on a AXC train say going from Manchester to Reading and tell the grip you are going to Birmingham Int. On arrival at New Street you jump off the train and go through the barriers at New Street saying you've come from somewhere else (if you have to explain yourself?) Easy!

 

[dinlobill]

The All Line Rover is not a loophole. It is an unrestricted week or fortnights pass first or second class. Putting ** any ** time restrictions restrictions upon it is a real mistake. It is a great shame it was not protected as a ticket type at privatisation as the BritRail Pass is.

 

[Zoe]

But at the end of the day as I said the TOCs are losing revenue by people using the ticket for return journeys to London to avoid having to pay for the Standard Anytime Return.

 

[nedchester]

But at the end of the day as I said the TOCs are losing revenue by people using the ticket for return journeys to London to avoid having to pay for the Standard Anytime Return.

I find it hard to understand anyone trying to justify what ATOC are doing.

The price of the Anytime returns is far too high which is what the problem is!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The wording on the staff brief is "....not valid to board or alight...."

It says nothing about travelling before 10:00.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, you just can't get on or off at those listed stations (which sort of makes it impossible to take trains in either direction at that time). It's quite cheeky, but you can probably get around it in some cases by taking a slower commuter service (e.g. FCC to Peterborough) to join an EC train that left in the morning - if they stop at Peterborough of course.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I was thinking more of buying a single from say St Pancras to West Hampstead or Kentish Town and travelling on EMT all the way from St Pancras. I'll have to see what they put under restriction code 'AL' in the FRPP.

 

[rail-britain]

If these restrictions are to be applied, then there should be a leaflet available
When buying mine in 2009 I was advised the only restriction was to the actual TOC providers, and that there was no leaflet available

 

[jon0844]

Well it is quite likely that most railway staff won't know about any changes to the restrictions. I'm really not convinced that that many people know about ALRs (even after more publicity in recent years) and buy them as an alternative to a rip-off open ticket for certain routes.

 

[theblackwatch]

But at the end of the day as I said the TOCs are losing revenue by people using the ticket for return journeys to London to avoid having to pay for the Standard Anytime Return.

Is this a fact or an assumption? If it's a fact, do you know how many ALR's are sold and used for this purpose?

 

[HORNIMANS]

A single to West Hampstead or kentish Town is no good as you have to buy a single to the next stopping station after 1000 whichever it is.
ie 0730 London Euston to Glasgow Ctrl a single ticket would have to be purchased from London Euston to Warrington Bank Quay as that is the first station stop.
Birmingham new Street is the different one, how is anyone one on the gateline going to know where you came from.! Doesn't XC change crew there, so nobody would know if you boarded or alighted there. could be travelling from Bristol TM to York for example.

 

[Striker]

All this moaning. In reality, you'd be very unlucky to find ticket inspectors knowing about all these restrictions. This is another one of those occassions when it's an advantage that most people don't do their job properly.

By the way. Just booked ... <removed>

 

[MCR247]

A single to West Hampstead or kentish Town is no good as you have to buy a single to the next stopping station after 1000 whichever it is.
ie 0730 London Euston to Glasgow Ctrl a single ticket would have to be purchased from London Euston to Warrington Bank Quay as that is the first station stop.

No you don't, an ALR is classed as a season....

 

[scotsman]

All this moaning. In reality, you'd be very unlucky to find ticket inspectors knowing about all these restrictions. This is another one of those occassions when it's an advantage that most people don't do their job properly.

By the way. Just booked a two day all-England BritRail Pass in FIRST CLASS with NO RESTRICTIONS whatsover for 61 British Pounds. Can't wait to use this over Christmas. The resourceful people out there will find a way of getting their hands on one.

How can you criticise Rail staff for giving free rides to other staff, then openly suggest that people purchase tickets they are not entitled to?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A single to West Hampstead or kentish Town is no good as you have to buy a single to the next stopping station after 1000 whichever it is....

Not true.

No you don't, an ALR is classed as a season....

Exactly, and under NCoC condition 19, the other ticket only has to cover the part of the journey not covered by the ALR, ie. getting on and/or off the train.

 

[yorkie]

A single to West Hampstead or kentish Town is no good as you have to buy a single to the next stopping station after 1000 whichever it is.

Why? That's your interpretation but you word it as fact. However the more I think about it, the less I agree with that interpretation. If you can give me reasons for it then maybe I will understand.

 

[HORNIMANS]

Its not the train that is retricted but the journey. if you come from the north on say the 0600 Newcastle to London KX[0859] because the restriction of not arriving before 1000 for EC trains the ALR becomes invalid at the last station stop ie Peterborough, where upon an excess fare is payable or in this case an anytime single. to avoid could change on to a FCC to KX AS NO RESTRICTION APPLIES. Can also do this in reverse.

 

[tony_mac]

but there is an argument that, if you also have a ticket from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross - then you can combine the two tickets without the train stopping.

The ALR is valid until Finsbury Park, and then you switch onto your other ticket for arrival into Kings Cross.

I can't decide which way I would go on this one, but then I am not going to buy an ALR, so it doesn't really matter to me!

 

[Striker]

How can you criticise Rail staff for giving free rides to other staff, then openly suggest that people purchase tickets they are not entitled to?

Because I have no conflict of interest and my job isn't to enforce the TOC's regulations and therefore I'm not abusing my position.

An employee going against their employers terms & conditions because they felt like it should face the consequences, just like if somebody did get caught using a ticket they're not entitled to. They'd have to accept the punishment too.

My issue is with train crew on here saying that they shouldn't have to face the consequences and members of the public should "keep their noses out".

But, on the subject of using a ticket they're not entitled to, how is it ethical that in a free market such as the EU, somebody can be charged SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than a resident of another EU country? This goes against everything the EU stands for and is discrimination.

 

[Zoe]

But, on the subject of using a ticket they're not entitled to, how is it ethical that in a free market such as the EU, somebody can be charged SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than a resident of another EU country? This goes against everything the EU stands for and is discrimination.

By that argument though the Britrail pass would likely be made unavailable to all EU citizens.

 

[TEW]

Remember that there is a similar pass for all EU countries, and whichever country you live in you can't buy a pass for your own country, I think that makes it fair.

 

[Zoe]

The US equivalent is also available to US citizens but as I said above, each pass has a limited number of segments available. Each journey counts as one segment whether this is Chicago to LA or just a one stop journey.

 

[Striker]

By that argument though the Britrail pass would likely be made unavailable to all EU citizens.

So be it.

Remember that there is a similar pass for all EU countries, and whichever country you live in you can't buy a pass for your own country, I think that makes it fair.

Not really "fair" when fares bought within other European countries are so much cheaper than they are bought within the UK. Therefore the French or Dutch or Germans have less to gain from buying a national rail rover in their own countries than the Brits do from having access to this extremely cheap Britrail pass.

Is everybody aware too that Eurostar charge much more for the same journeys from UK IP addresses? So a London to Brussels one way (for example) can be more expensive than a London to Brussels one way (ON EXACTLY THE SAME TRAIN) bought using a computer outside the UK. How this is legal under EU law I do not know. :roll:

 

[nedchester]

If you fancy writing to someone 'at the top' then these addresses may be helpful (from wnxx):

The All Line Rover is the responsibility of Head Of Marketing, ATOC Andrew Robertson Tel 0207 841 8054
Email [email protected]
Direct dial 0207 841 8054
Fax 020 7841 8266

but I suggest all on here email their "worst" to the Chief Executive of ATOC, Michael Roberts (as well as your MP/Private Eye,etc) on this subject
Email [email protected]
Direct dial 0207 841 8007
Fax 020 7841 8260

 

[John @ home]

if you come from the north on say the 0600 Newcastle to London KX[0859] because the restriction of not arriving before 1000 for EC trains the ALR becomes invalid at the last station stop ie Peterborough, where upon an excess fare is payable or in this case an anytime single.

As yorkie says, that's your interpretation, HORNIMANS, but you still word it as fact.

It seems to me that your interpretation is in conflict with the rules.

19. Using a combination of tickets

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

1. they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
2. the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one ticket to another; or
3. one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10). If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.

For the purposes of this Condition, a "leisure travel pass" means any multi–journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:

1. at least 7 consecutive days; or
2. at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days

and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

The wording of the restriction is not fit for purpose. I repeat my prediction in post #91 above.

My prediction is that the restriction will have to be re-worded.