Alstom and Hitachi now announced as winners of HS2 rolling stock supplier contract

[Bletchleyite]

Why would you go for 25m bogie spacing? That would mean 30m vehicles (which doesn't go cleanly into 200m).

25m vehicles (8 of which add up to 200m) is what it will be.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Why would you go for 25m bogie spacing? That would mean 30m vehicles.

25m vehicles (8 of which add up to 200m) is what it will be.

2.3 metres wide!

 

[Bletchleyite]

2.3 metres wide!

25m vehicles are not 2.3m wide. IETs are 26m vehicles and are 2.7m other than the end taper.

 

[Bald Rick]

Pendolinos induce claustrophobic even when standing at the station.

For a small minority of people.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Sorry if it's been mentioned but I forget where I read basically the HS2 trains at 200m will be 8 coaches so 16 coaches (400m) will be a huge increase in capacity of course!

 

[RAGNARØKR]

For a small minority of people.

Evidence, based on preferences between two alternatives?

The cabin space is small, the seating layout is cluttered, the windows are small and lot of the bodyside length is not glazed. Even tube trains let in more light from the outside than a Pendolino; after the City and South London Railway's "padded cells", it was realised that passengers prefer to be able to see out of the trains, even if most of the journey is in a tunnel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Evidence, based on preferences between two alternatives?

The cabin space is small, the seating layout is cluttered, the windows are small and lot of the bodyside length is not glazed. Even tube trains let in more light from the outside than a Pendolino; after the City and South London Railway's "padded cells", it was realised that passengers prefer to be able to see out of the trains, even if most of the journey is in a tunnel.

You can see out of a Pendolino. While the windows are quite small, they are positioned pretty perfectly for looking out while seated. There are some rows without, though, and these are best avoided. My main dislike of them is the poor legroom, which I'm hoping the new thinner seats (said to be the same as Lumo's) will solve.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

25m vehicles are not 2.3m wide. IETs are 26m vehicles and are 2.7m other than the end taper.

A vehicle with bogies spaced 25 metres apart, or a 25 metre articulated vehicle, would have to be 2.3 metres wide between the bogies. You can check it out for yourself with the formula on the spreadsheet.

A 20 metre vehicle with bogies spaced 14.17 metres apart can be 2.82 metres wide.
A 23 metre vehicle with bogies spaced 16 metres apart can be 2.74 metres wide.
The IEP vehicles have a bogie spacing of 17 metres and are 2.75 metres wide (apart from the tapered ends). I assume this takes advantage of tolerances or is based on restricted route availability.

The small, low windows on the Pendolinos mean that not much daylight can get in, which creates the gloomy interior ambience, much like an aircraft interior. Compare it with London Underground surface line stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A vehicle with bogies spaced 25 metres apart, or a 25 metre articulated vehicle, would have to be 2.3 metres wide between the bogies. You can check it out for yourself with the formula on the spreadsheet.

Nobody is proposing to build a 25m articulated vehicle. Articulation is not allowed in the spec, but even if it was you would typically have vehicles of 16-18m. Does any train in the world have 25m articulated vehicles?

8 x 25m individually-bogied vehicles (or thereabouts) are the most likely scenario to give 200m.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Nobody is proposing to build a 25m articulated vehicle. Articulation is not allowed in the spec, but even if it was you would typically have vehicles of 16-18m. Does any train in the world have 25m articulated vehicles?

8 x 25m individually-bogied vehicles (or thereabouts) are the most likely scenario to give 200m.

I was answering your hypothetical question in response #151. Articulated vehicles seem to be about 16 metres long eg the centre cars in the Danish IC3 3-car sets.

 

[superalbs]

How long are the FLIRT XL vehicles? Pretty sure they are articulated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long are the FLIRT XL vehicles? Pretty sure they are articulated.

The intermediates look about 18m based on the window size. Normal FLIRT vehicles are about 16m.

 

[Bald Rick]

Evidence, based on preferences between two alternatives?

Based on the fact that the trains are routinely busy; so if claustrophobia is induced, it doesn’t seem to be putting swathes of the travelling public off.

Anecdotal evidence - of the hundreds of people I know who have used and continued to use them, not one has said they feel claustrophobic in them. And that includes two people I know who do have claustrophobia.

What is your evidence that ‘Pendolinos induce claustrophobia’ ?

 

[Roast Veg]

Based on the fact that the trains are routinely busy; so if claustrophobia is induced, it doesn’t seem to be putting swathes of the travelling public off.

Swathes? No. I do know a few people that choose to travel on LNWR over Avanti because they prefer the ambiance of a 350 though.

 

[Bald Rick]

I do know a few people that choose to travel on LNWR over Avanti because they prefer the ambiance of a 350 though.

Some people have strange preferences!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Swathes? No. I do know a few people that choose to travel on LNWR over Avanti because they prefer the ambiance of a 350 though.

Some people have strange preferences!

I have certainly done so even on an Any Permitted walk up. More legroom (except some centre sections), better window view, better seats. What's not to like other than it being a bit slower?

 

[py_megapixel]

I have certainly done so even on an Any Permitted walk up. More legroom (except some centre sections), better window view, better seats. What's not to like other than it being a bit slower?

Maybe from Milton Keynes or Rugby, but substantially slower from further afield. Depending on which exact trains you choose you're talking 40-ish minutes more from either Crewe or Birmingham

 

[43096]

Some people have strange preferences!

You said it!

 

[Mordac]

The only time I do that is from the airport to New Street, and even then only when loaded with heavy baggage as the door at thirds 350s are so much easier to board.

 

[trebor79]

If you read the spec, unless they get to deviate from it it looks like the units will be very comfortable. Things like seat quality, very generous spacing and window alignment in Standard are all specified.

The irony! So much of the route will be in tunnel or deep cuttings a window view will hardly matter!

 

[mmh]

The irony! So much of the route will be in tunnel or deep cuttings a window view will hardly matter!

Well, not so if you believe that services will still reach as far as Glasgow!

 

[trebor79]

Well, not so if you believe that services will still reach as far as Glasgow!

Oh yes, I'd forgotten that minor detail!

 

[mmh]

Oh yes, I'd forgotten that minor detail!

As I believe will be conveniently forgotten by the Government in due course!

 

[tomuk]

As I believe will be conveniently forgotten by the Government in due course!

What are you talking about. When Phase 1 opens the existing West Coast services to Scotland will use HS2 via the Handsacre Link north of Birmingham. After Phase 2 this will be extended to Crewe.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The irony! So much of the route will be in tunnel or deep cuttings a window view will hardly matter!

Plus all the sound barriers on embankments...

 

[Meerkat]

They need to commission some art along the inside of the sound barriers to add some interest!

 

[RAGNARØKR]

They need to commission some art along the inside of the sound barriers to add some interest!

They will probably acquire "art" even before the trains start running.

Based on the fact that the trains are routinely busy; so if claustrophobia is induced, it doesn’t seem to be putting swathes of the travelling public off.

Anecdotal evidence - of the hundreds of people I know who have used and continued to use them, not one has said they feel claustrophobic in them. And that includes two people I know who do have claustrophobia.

What is your evidence that ‘Pendolinos induce claustrophobia’ ?

Unless a survey has been done, nobody can possibly know what people's preferences are. Nor can anyone estimate the effect of having more comfortable trains. Rooms with very small windows are routinely provided in punishment institutions. Most trains are generously glazed. One can only assume that passengers prefer the latter. There is certainly no shortage of passengers willing to fork out large sums of money to travel in trains built in the 1950s.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unless a survey has been done, nobody can possibly know what people's preferences are.

indeed, which is why your original statement, which seemed rather certain of the matter, is open to debate.

fortunately I have done a survey, of people I know, and none of them think ‘Pendolinos induce claustrophobia’

Pendolinos induce claustrophobic even when standing at the station.

 

[Mikey C]

indeed, which is why your original statement, which seemed rather certain of the matter, is open to debate.

fortunately I have done a survey, of people I know, and none of them think ‘Pendolinos induce claustrophobia’

Claustrophobia is a strong, but plenty of people think the small windows on the 390s are a bit rubbish!

Apart from the restriction on your side (if a pillar blocks or partially blocks your view), the view out of the other side is dreadful too, especially in airline seats

 

[RAGNARØKR]

indeed, which is why your original statement, which seemed rather certain of the matter, is open to debate.

fortunately I have done a survey, of people I know, and none of them think ‘Pendolinos induce claustrophobia’

A survey would mean you had offered some alternative. If your acquaintances had been used to some other types of trains then an equiry about their preferences would have been meaningful. If a Pendolino is compared with, say, a Boeing 737 then it looks light and spacious. Judged as a train, it is another matter. The Voyagers are cramped and cluttered inside but at least they have decent sized windows. Shrunken windows are not a new thing - they started with the air conditioned mark 2 stock. The first class compartments on the latter were particularly nasty, especially compared to those of the earlier builds