Alternatives to the Bakerloo line extension

[NorthKent1989]

If the Bakerloo line extension doesn’t happen for whatever reason what alternatives could take it’s place?

1: A Light rail
2: An express bus transit
3: A tram

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

If the Bakerloo line extension doesn’t happen for whatever reason what alternatives could take it’s place?

1: A Light rail
2: An express bus transit
3: A tram

I think a tram has been suggested by Southwark Council.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think a tram has been suggested by Southwark Council.

Yes I’ve heard about a tram, I think a Trolleybus would be better, cheaper, and quicker

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Yes I’ve heard about a tram, I think a Trolleybus would be better, cheaper, and quicker

It would be yes but a tram may have more capacity

 

[Well Hall]

Bore it as crossrail 3 from Gatwick via Lewisham to The Elephant, Then on to Battersea Interchange, Bond Street, Edgware Road Interchange and then take over the Aylesbury Line to Marylebone.

 

[JonathanH]

Bore it as crossrail 3 from Gatwick via Lewisham to The Elephant, Then on to Battersea Interchange, Bond Street, Edgware Road Interchange and then take over the Aylesbury Line to Marylebone.

The reason for cancellation would be that it is unaffordable. More ambitious ideas aren't really what is appropriate.

The answer is buses on the surface roads just as it is today.

To some extent the Bakerloo Line extension is a solution looking for a problem (eg the line doesn't go anywhere at the south end and has spare capacity) but at the same time it does serve a potential development corridor. The issue is how to justify the cost of building it.

 

[NorthKent1989]

To some extent the Bakerloo Line extension is a problem looking for a solution (eg the line doesn't go anywhere at the south end and has spare capacity) but at the same time it does serve a potential development corridor. The issue is how to justify the cost of building it.

I think a shorter extension to Camberwell would be beneficial since Camberwell is poor linked by rail (Denmark Hill is up the road bu there does need to be a station in the centre of Camberwell)

But the corridor between E&C to Lewisham is pretty well connected with railways to central London

 

[S&CLER]

One supposed benefit of the Bakerloo extension was that it would relieve the pressure on inner suburban trains from Lewisham, as some passengers would transfer to the tube for the sake of a direct journey to the West End; and also free up more paths and remove a few conflicting movements in the Lewisham area by taking the Hayes trains out. But that may not be so necessary if peak loadings don't recover from Covid.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

One supposed benefit of the Bakerloo extension was that it would relieve the pressure on inner suburban trains from Lewisham, as some passengers would transfer to the tube for the sake of a direct journey to the West End; and also free up more paths and remove a few conflicting movements in the Lewisham area by taking the Hayes trains out. But that may not be so necessary if peak loadings don't recover from Covid.

That was always one half of the main argument in favour of this extension; the second half being that Lewisham is a natural public transport hub. However there was an equally good argument in favour of taking the extension through Walworth and Camberwell Green, neither of which has any rail service, to Denmark Hill and Herne Hill.

 

[Mikey C]

I think a shorter extension to Camberwell would be beneficial since Camberwell is poor linked by rail (Denmark Hill is up the road bu there does need to be a station in the centre of Camberwell)

But the corridor between E&C to Lewisham is pretty well connected with railways to central London

There's a big rail gap along the Old Kent Road. If anyone was building the Bakerloo Line now, you'd never terminate it at Elephant, when the corridor to New Cross or Peckham has so many underserved areas

 

[Horizon22]

One supposed benefit of the Bakerloo extension was that it would relieve the pressure on inner suburban trains from Lewisham, as some passengers would transfer to the tube for the sake of a direct journey to the West End; and also free up more paths and remove a few conflicting movements in the Lewisham area by taking the Hayes trains out. But that may not be so necessary if peak loadings don't recover from Covid.

Also the buses and congestion down Old Kent Road. For what is essentially Zone 2, it's got fairly dire connections to heavy/light/metro rail and buses packed.

In an ideal world the Bakerloo line would go even further than Lewisham. Taking over the Hayes line has had competing opinions and formal consultations and some have suggested taking over the Bromley North branch too, although bridging the gap between Lewisham - Grove Park may be challenging.

 

[Ianno87]

My money would be on the Bakerloo extension being a short extension as far as Lewisham to tie in with development on the route, in the manner of the Northern Line extension. Beyond Lewisham (to Hayes) will depend on what future peak capacity needs are.

 

[S&CLER]

Also the buses and congestion down Old Kent Road. For what is essentially Zone 2, it's got fairly dire connections to heavy/light/metro rail and buses packed.

In an ideal world the Bakerloo line would go even further than Lewisham. Taking over the Hayes line has had competing opinions and formal consultations and some have suggested taking over the Bromley North branch too, although bridging the gap between Lewisham - Grove Park may be challenging.

It certainly would be challenging. Years ago I used to live on Springbank Road, Hither Green, which runs alongside the railway, so I can understand exactly how difficult a tube extension to Grove Park would be, unless it were to be bored under the existing line and the former Continental Freight Depot (no idea what's become of that, I left the area in 1980).

 

[telstarbox]

Although I think Lewisham makes sense for the terminus if it goes ahead, does it give that many more connections from the Southeastern network? All the current Metro routes from Dartford, Hayes or Orpington carry on to Charing Cross where you can already change to the Bakerloo line.

It certainly would be challenging. Years ago I used to live on Springbank Road, Hither Green, which runs alongside the railway, so I can understand exactly how difficult a tube extension to Grove Park would be, unless it were to be bored under the existing line and the former Continental Freight Depot (no idea what's become of that, I left the area in 1980).

What if the Bakerloo took over the slows as far as Orpington (maybe including Bromley North)? I appreciate that would leave Dunton Green / Knockholt / Chelsfield on a limb but maybe they could be folded into the slower of the Tonbridge line services?

 

[30907]

Although I think Lewisham makes sense for the terminus if it goes ahead, does it give that many more connections from the Southeastern network? All the current Metro routes from Dartford, Hayes or Orpington carry on to Charing Cross where you can already change to the Bakerloo line.

Agreed, but I think Lewisham is much more about relieving the SE into London from there - plus it is a significant local centre these days.

What if the Bakerloo took over the slows as far as Orpington (maybe including Bromley North)? I appreciate that would leave Dunton Green / Knockholt / Chelsfield on a limb but maybe they could be folded into the slower of the Tonbridge line services?

I think LUL would prefer segregated track (platform heights as well as operational separation), and I don't think you could manage Orpington as a 2-track railway. Hence Hayes has always been the first choice.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Weren’t there plans at one point to extend the Bakerloo to not only Lewisham but also up to Deptford to Charlton, and beyond Lewisham to Dartford via Bexleyheath? Leaving the Lewisham-Woolwich route and the Sidcup line (the lines with longer distance outer suburban services) with National Rail or was this plan just a crayonista on another forum?

I don’t quite know how an extension to the Bexleyheath line would work, but I can see the appeal of the Hayes line seeing its self contained, but I don’t think the Hayes line commuters are happy about the Bakerloo extension anyway.

 

[JohnElliott]

Apparently in the 1950s the crayon design of choice was to have it take over the Crystal Palace High Level branch.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes it would be an improved frequency for the Hayes, but nowhere else in London has a tube line taken over an electrified railway with full length trains on it, so it's a very different scenario from the London Transport era extensions where the Northern and Central Lines took over sleepy steam operated branch lines and massively improved the service.

 

[cle]

I don’t think we need precedent. Hayes is within the zones and needs no less of an NR service than the folks of Epping or Stanmore.

It keeps it neatly within TfL and a self-contained/terminating service - unlocks a solid 4tph through London Bridge and Lewisham which could be put to great use - and would give Hayes line users frequencies far higher - ie seats, especially for inner stations like Catford Bridge and Ladywell.

New trains by then too - and options to change for the city still. To Oxford Circus, it would likely be quicker and way easier. No brainier.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes I’ve heard about a tram, I think a Trolleybus would be better, cheaper, and quicker

Even cheaper and even quicker would be an electric bus that doesn’t need millions spent on stringing up the wires and providing a power supply, ie like the buses TfL are buying in quantity.

 

[Mikey C]

I don’t think we need precedent. Hayes is within the zones and needs no less of an NR service than the folks of Epping or Stanmore.

It keeps it neatly within TfL and a self-contained/terminating service - unlocks a solid 4tph through London Bridge and Lewisham which could be put to great use - and would give Hayes line users frequencies far higher - ie seats, especially for inner stations like Catford Bridge and Ladywell.

New trains by then too - and options to change for the city still. To Oxford Circus, it would likely be quicker and way easier. No brainier.

But slower to London Bridge or Cannon Street. Changing at Lewisham for a Southeastern train or Elephant for a rammed Northern Line train is hardly an appealing prospect

More frequency yes, but an Underground train is a lot smaller than a 10 car Southeastern train. And less comfortable too, whether to stand or sit in. By the time an extension happens, the current Networkers will be long gone.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It’s critical to remember that the Bakerloo to Hayes does absolutely stacks of things to change the make-up of suburban rail and housebuilding.

Examples:
- Eventually (I am quite sure), the Bexleyheath line and potentially the Sidcup / Orpington lines via Lewisham will operate solely to Cannon Street. The Bakerloo line at Lewisham is pivotal to doing this as it makes Charing Cross, Waterloo and the West End more accessible on a high-frequency basis.
- The Hayes line brings 6-7 peak services per hour, and the only way to get those off the network is to use the Bakerloo line. Assuming they run to a mix of Hayes and Beckenham, you’re looking at a good load of added capacity, especially to/from Charing Cross.
- You open up a good load of development and improve transport across South London.

Bakerloo to Hayes and Beckenham Junction is pretty important. All this “Covid” stuff is nonsensical as the likelihood is by the time it’s built we’ll all have forgotten about it.

 

[cle]

But slower to London Bridge or Cannon Street. Changing at Lewisham for a Southeastern train or Elephant for a rammed Northern Line train is hardly an appealing prospect

More frequency yes, but an Underground train is a lot smaller than a 10 car Southeastern train. And less comfortable too, whether to stand or sit in. By the time an extension happens, the current Networkers will be long gone.

Agreed, for the most part. But, travel patterns will have to adapt, and it's better for the broader network - both NR paths, SE simplification and TfL Tube capacity (Bakerloo and released, e.g. Jubilee at London Bridge). A few stations may see some changes they are unhappy with, but the network, it nets out to a positive.


For example, patterns evolve to availability, especially jobs. Essex and Kent people work a lot more in the City, historically due to the direct links. Essex especially, and Fenchurch folks being a perfect example, with little onward options. Crossrail will massively change that perception and patterns. A role in Paddington is suddenly less of a big deal.

Similarly, Hayes people don't necessarily need Cannon St access (Bromley South manages with Victoria only, and East Croydon have LB only) - and their commuting patterns and appeal of job locations will evolve. They will still have Lewisham for Docklands, and arguably quicker/simpler to the West End.

10 cars @ 4tph is not the same capacity as tube stock @ 24tph+. I don't know what the Beckenham and Lewisham turnback plans would be, but let's assume minimum 12tph to Hayes. No timetables ever needed again - again, an aggregate shorter journey vs average waits or the possibility of missing a train/it being full.

 

[adamedwards]

The answer for Camberwell is a station on Thameslink served by the Sutton Lop trains. BR had that in their plans when Thameslink first opened. It of course is not cheap as on a viaduct, but less that a tube tunnel.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The answer for Camberwell is a station on Thameslink served by the Sutton Lop trains. BR had that in their plans when Thameslink first opened. It of course is not cheap as on a viaduct, but less that a tube tunnel.

Realistically we need to close Loughborough Junction, and spend some serious money on a Brixton station on LOROL / SE Atlantic lines to interchange; as well as a Camberwell station on the Blackfriars lines.

 

[adrock1976]

Realistically we need to close Loughborough Junction, and spend some serious money on a Brixton station on LOROL / SE Atlantic lines to interchange; as well as a Camberwell station on the Blackfriars lines.

Being as the lines south of the Thames are a foreign country to me, is the Se Atlantic Lines the pair of tracks that run beside Atlantic Road in Brixton, or is it the other pair?

I recall one pair of tracks remains level, but the other pair rises up onto a viaduct near the station at Brixton and crosses above another line.

 

[Bald Rick]

The answer for Camberwell is a station on Thameslink served by the Sutton Lop trains. BR had that in their plans when Thameslink first opened. It of course is not cheap as on a viaduct, but less that a tube tunnel.

It is a lot more than ‘not cheap’, as it requires the viaduct to be widened (significantly) over much more than the former station area, and that means lots of demolition. It’s been looked at several times, and quietly dropped several times, until someone new comes in with the same bright idea.

 

[telstarbox]

I go to Camberwell often and it seems to manage without its "own" station. You have Denmark Hill, Elephant and Castle and Peckham Rye not too far away and a lot of people cycle around there.

 

[zwk500]

Being as the lines south of the Thames are a foreign country to me, is the Se Atlantic Lines the pair of tracks that run beside Atlantic Road in Brixton, or is it the other pair?

I recall one pair of tracks remains level, but the other pair rises up onto a viaduct near the station at Brixton and crosses above another line.

The Atlantic lines are the southernmost pair, on the higher viaduct. The level pair are the Catford Loop Lines.

Neither pair has any platforms at Brixton, although IIRC there were previously platforms on the Atlantic lines, but only 1 platform for the Up Catford Loop line. AFAIK the Down Catford Loop has never had a platform. To put platforms on all lines would be monumentally expensive given how tight buildings are to the line and the engineering required as all lines are on viaducts. There'd also be the issue of the overlap conflict with the Up Catford Loop platform over the junction.

 

[30907]

Neither pair has any platforms at Brixton, although IIRC there were previously platforms on the Atlantic lines,

Those were East Brixton, halfway to Loughborough Jn

but only 1 platform for the Up Catford Loop line. AFAIK the Down Catford Loop has never had a platform

It did when the Victoria to Widened Lines service (withdrawn in WW1) operated! But that was 100+ years ago

Realistically we need to close Loughborough Junction, and spend some serious money on a Brixton station on LOROL / SE Atlantic lines to interchange; as well as a Camberwell station on the Blackfriars lines.

Realistically, that would be neither cheap nor convenient, as the Atlantic platforms would be well towards East Brixton.