Am I entitled to anything?

[Darandio]

Today I did a trip from Darlington to Doncaster, first class on East Coast.

My first journey this morning was on the 08:00 from Darlington, all went swimmingly.

However, on the return I was due to catch the 16:34 from Doncaster back to Darlington, again first class. Now, as per other threads on the forum, there were OHLE issues this afternoon and on arrival at the station at around 16:15, all services northbound were shown as delayed, presumably indefinetely at that point.

Fortunately, a XC service was due, heading to Newcastle which arrived and I asked the EC guard on the platform what the situation was with northbound traffic. He replied that the wires were down. I asked whether I could get on the service with an EC advance and he said they were still clarifying exactly what was going on, it was all a bit of a panic. At the front of the train were the driver and a member of train staff so I approached and asked if I could use the EC advance given the situation and was given the go ahead, the member of staff said I might not get home otherwise!

Now, during the journey, my ticket wasn't checked so I am querying what I can get back from EC (if anything) with regards to my journey with them not being fulfilled despite the kind effort of XC and the fact I stood the hour or so in the vestibule when I should have been comfortable in first class with my advance ticket!

Should I have gained proof of some sort from a guard on the XC train, or would that get somebody into trouble as at that point, there was no official take on whether tickets were accepted by other TOC's. I have the unused/unstamped tickets.

Also, I have checked and it seems they started the service I was due to get on at Newcastle so its pretty obvious I didnt make the journey on the intended train.

Thanks in advance.

 

[rail-britain]

Obtain the East Coast Delay-Repay form (on their website)
Photocopy the ticket affected by the delay
Send in the claim
Put in the train you were supposed to travel on
See what comes back

30 to 59 minutes late and you will get 50% back for that ticket
More than 60 minutes late and you will get 100% back for that ticket

 

[yorkie]

I am guessing you boarded the 1617 XC service, and that you got to Darlington before the booked time. Therefore I reeckon that you are entitled to the difference between the price of the equivalent Standard Class ticket, and the price of your First Class ticket, as effectively FC accommodation and your booked seat were available. Without knowing what price you paid it is difficult to suggest what this amount may be, but if you had price level "OCS" at £20.50 the equivalent standard class ticket would be £9.50 so I'd say £10.50 in that example.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Obtain the East Coast Claim and Repay form (on their website)
Photocopy the ticket affected by the delay
Send in the claim
Put in the train you were supposed to travel on
See what comes back

30 to 59 minutes late and you will get 50% back for that ticket
More than 60 minutes late and you will get 100% back for that ticket

It wasn't a delay (as far as I can determine), although I guess there is no problem using that form providing it is completed correctly.

However if FC accommodation is available he is entitled to the difference between the SC and FC fare.

 

[Darandio]

Thats the thing, I wasn't actually late as they allowed me on an earlier train, albeit a different TOC. Quite amazing really.

What I am interested in is the first class part. I was booked in EC first class and stood in a vestibule on a Voyager. Really, I am grateful to get back so easily considering what the board was showing regarding northbound services but hey, you don;t know unless you try.

And yes Yorkie, it was the 16:17 I caught. The advance was £16.90 each way so we are not talking about mega amounts, its just nice to know. I was also more interested in what I could achieve considering there is no actual proof I boarded the XC service although on using the barriers at Darlington, would that record my exit?

 

[RJ]

Why not write to EC and see what they say?

 

[Darandio]

I most likely will, I was interested to see if there were any other similar situations that had happened although certain circumstances will of be of course unique for each case.

 

[John @ home]

Today I did a trip from Darlington to Doncaster, first class on East Coast. ... on the return I was due to catch the 16:34 from Doncaster back to Darlington ... I have checked and it seems they started the service I was due to get on at Newcastle

Agreed. The 16:34 Doncaster - Glasgow Central was cancelled between Doncaster and Newcastle today.

I am querying what I can get back from EC.

When your East Coast train is cancelled, your rights are set out in East Coast's Passenger Charter. The section most relevant to your experience seems to be 10.3 Seat Guarantee.

 

[142094]

Do remember to take a copy of your tickets in case they go missing - EC seem to be better than their predecessor for giving out refunds and the time taken to do so.

 

[laird]

I was rather dissapointed that under the delay repay scheme unlike the older version of sending in a comment/complaint now it seems to be just an automated system of repaying. In this case it might have been nice to have made comment about the confusion over whether alternate train operators are accepting tickets.

I've seen this a few times where if you go via a website you can find a comment that says you can use alternate services yet that message isn't being shared fairly with those accessing information via alternate methods, including station staff. Perhaps if there were simple rules that governed when alternate operators would accept tickets that would help?
It would also get round the problem where I've had to throw myself on the mercy of a train operator and explain the sad tale of an earlier cancellation - I must look reasonably honest in doing it as I've not had to enter an argument yet about a penalty fare or buying a new ticket but it would have been nice not to have had to beg.
I think its also an interesting example where a passenger arrives at the station early discovers there are delays and so sets about mitigating the loss, it seems like Darandio has done the right thing in minimising the potential payout, presumably CrossCountry should receive something in exchange for the standing space they provided. Yes Darrandio is probably still due his refund for the difference between First and Standard class but he has saved the company the delay payment. Should there be an obligation like with insurance to minimise the losses?

 

[scotsman]

I'm told that a copy of tickets isn't necessary, and they prefer a bank statement

 

[mumrar]

I understand why you're asking, but bearing in mind an agreement had not been reached regarding the permission to use an EC ticket on XC, I presume that from the conversation you had with the EC guard, are you not wanting to have your cake and eat it?

You were permitted travel with an invalid ticket and would have arrived within a whisker of your booked time, when you could have been told to wait or purchase a new ticket. At cost or incovenience to yourself

It just seems like claiming money back against a goodwill gesture from the XC crew is a bit of a mickey take, others might not agree.

 

[142094]

I'm told that a copy of tickets isn't necessary, and they prefer a bank statement

What about if you buy using a different method of payment to a card? Plus bank statements normally come at the end of the month which is no help if the journey is at the start.

 

[scotsman]

What about if you buy using a different method of payment to a card? Plus bank statements normally come at the end of the month which is no help if the journey is at the start.

That's ScotRail's Customer Relations for you

 

[142094]

Thankfully I've never had to send in a claim yet with Scotrail.

 

[Darandio]

I understand why you're asking, but bearing in mind an agreement had not been reached regarding the permission to use an EC ticket on XC, I presume that from the conversation you had with the EC guard, are you not wanting to have your cake and eat it?

Of course I am but I could just as easily been 2 minutes later and then been stuck indefinetely given that my service didn't even run as intended!

As I said above, I am very grateful that XC allowed me to travel but I would never have even had a chance of that given the reply from the EC guard, everything was up in the air at that moment. I guess that means my endeavour managed to get me home.

At the same time though, EC didn't provide the journey and nor did they provide first class as per what I had paid for. Should I have sat around and waited, caused myself a major inconvenience and arrived very late thus giving me a more clear conscience for a claim? I doubt it.

Of course, we are talking about buttons here in terms of what, if anything would be due to me but would you be saying the same thing if I had a ticket worth in excess of £100? After all, it isn't my fault what happened, happened.

 

[mumrar]

At the same time though, EC didn't provide the journey and nor did they provide first class as per what I had paid for

Yes but conversly XC did provide you with a journey, and one which you didn't pay for, and I presume if you'd have boarded without finding the guard and got stung for an excess you'd be complaining at having to pay.

Seems like double standards to me.

 

[Darandio]

Yes but conversly XC did provide you with a journey, and one which you didn't pay for, and I presume if you'd have boarded without finding the guard and got stung for an excess you'd be complaining at having to pay.

Seems like double standards to me.

Are you trying to paint a picture of me? If so, you are completely wrong. How can it be double standards if I never had the intention of doing what you say in the latter part?

For one, I wouldn't board any train without a valid ticket hence the reason why I first asked the platform guard and then the train staff as well. If I couldn't find a guard or had indeed been told to hang fire because nothing was arranged, I'm not the type to just jump on.

In the thread I only asked if I was entitled to anything. If there had been a "no" answer, fair enough and judging by the small amounts involved, its probably not worth it anyway. However, in exactly the same way that I managed to get home, I won't find out without asking.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But you were told that nothing had been arranged, you admitted that in your first post. You then proceeded to find someone else who would let you onboard, and now you are asking about getting money back!

 

[Darandio]

Because my first class journey was not fulfilled, it's not that hard to understand is it?

Was I wrong to ask politely if I was able to board?

 

[mumrar]

Because my first class journey was not fulfilled, it's not that hard to understand is it?

Was I wrong to ask politely if I was able to board?

I'm not trying to paint a picture of you, I am trying to get a handle on the scenario that occurred and your expectations upon learning the answer to the question.

Fair enough if it's idle curiosity, but I thought you were actually keen on persuing the money.

 

[GB]

Surely, however small the amounts maybe, what you are trying/suggesting is tantamount to fraud or obtaining money by deception?

 

[142094]

I don't see how this can be fraud. As he has said, he had a 1st class ticket and was not able to use first class. If I was in that situation I'd expect the difference between a 1st class and standard class ticket to be refunded.

 

[Darandio]

Surely, however small the amounts maybe, what you are trying/suggesting is tantamount to fraud or obtaining money by deception?

How exactly? Who am I/have I decepted/decepting?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The thing is Darandio, for all you know, EC could have agreed with all other train companies that first class tickets would be accepted in first class on all services that have it, but you didn't wait for that, you took it upon yourself to get back. Had the guard come through the train you could have been facing a full standard single fare for the journey, simply because you did not want to wait for anything official to come through.

I think EC would be right to turn down any request for money back and pass on your details to XC so they can send you a letter asking for the full single fare for the journey made.

 

[GB]

You didn't use the service you are claiming a delay for for a start.

Edit: OK I have re read your second post and realise it relates to the first class travel, however I do think its still a little cheeky as it was ultimately your decision to board the XC service rather than use the EC or wait for further clarification.

 

[Darandio]

Had the guard come through the train you could have been facing a full standard single fare for the journey, simply because you did not want to wait for anything official to come through.

Surely not when I had asked beforehand if my ticket would be accepted in the circumstances? The guard/staff (with driver there as well) said yes, surely final discretion is on them anyway?

And who mentioned claiming for a delay? I certainly didn't. I was merely asking about the non first class issue.

The replies in the thread recently seem to be holding accusation that maybe I have defrauded XC and should be liable to pay a fare to them. Why?

 

[mumrar]

The replies in the thread recently seem to be holding accusation that maybe I have defrauded XC and should be liable to pay a fare to them. Why?

I'm certainly not accusing you of defrauding XC, I'm more saying it is an affront to the good nature of the staff at XC who let you use a totally invalid ticket in view of the disruption. They bent/flexed a bit to help you out with your journey, but your concerned with the service you'd paid for and DIDN'T get, as opposed to the service you got but DIDN'T pay for.

I don't see how I can illustrate it more clearly, but basically I think *if* you did claim, then it would be taking the p!!! a little.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Depends who you actually asked, the Train Manager/guard will have final say usually, but who is to say that the Train Manager/guard was the person you spoke to?

If you had spoken to the guard, why did you not go through to first class?

 

[Darandio]

Call it how you did earlier than and say "idle curiosity". My response that you quoted was more to hairyhandedfool and the line........

"I think EC would be right to turn down any request for money back and pass on your details to XC so they can send you a letter asking for the full single fare for the journey made."

First part fair enough, turn it down but why should XC want a full single fare for the journey made? If I had just jumped on the service, had a guard arrive, argued the toss and got an UPFN and probably got chucked off at York then yes. But to ask politely first in view of the emerging situation and be allowed to travel, then no.

It has me wondering now if the arrangement was made afterwards for EC ticket holders to use other TOC's and if so, how long before the arrangement was made. If not, what time did traffic start coming through and information boards revert from showing everything "delayed" to actually giving a later time. Or did traffic coming southbound terminate at Doncaster and then return north? I am guessing not the latter because only one XC passed southbound, and there were 3 Mk4 sets sat at York when we arrived.

Not sure who I spoke to, they released the doors then went and spoke to the driver and that is when I approached, to my knowledge that would be the train manager but may not be. All he said was to go and try and find a seat, there wasn't one so I stood in the vestibule with a couple of other people. To be honest, I am a decent enough guy hence why I asked in the first place, others wouldn't and I equally wouldn't have been comfortable sat in first class on the XC service when I had been let on in a goodwill gesture.

Again, call the thread idle curiosity.

 

[Flamingo]

You'd probably be entitled to the difference between what you had paid, and what the journey that you did do would have cost. So the difference between an Advance 1st class, and a STD off-peak any permitted.

If the Std off-peak would have cost more than the Advance First Class, you can send them a cheque, postal order or Credit/Debit card details to cover the shortfall, no cash!