Another landslip - Knottingley (Pontefract East area)

[johntea]

Another headache for Northern (and to a lesser extent Grand Central) today in that there has been a landslip in the Pontefract East area meaning no rail service at all for Knottingley, the inspections and works seem to have been extended until 'at least the end of Tuesday 12 March' now too

Incident: Knottingley | National Rail

Disruption between Leeds / Wakefield Kirkgate and Knottingley until the end of the day on Monday 6 May. Find details of all current incidents on National Rail Enquiries.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

A safety inspection of the track between Pontefract Monkhill and Knottingley means all lines are blocked. As a result, trains running between these stations will be cancelled or revised.

Disruption is expected to continue until the end of the day on Tuesday 12 March.

Customer advice:

Services between Pontefract Monkhill and Knottingley are currently being disrupted due to a re-occurrence of a landslip in the Pontefract East area.

Network Rail engineers are still in attendance and have observed further deterioration at the site. Further specialist teams and equipment are required to fix the issue.

Grand Central

Trains between Bradford Interchange and London Kings Cross will be diverted and as a result will no longer call at Pontefract Monkhill.

Rail replacement transport will operate between Pontefract Monkhill and Doncaster.

Northern

Trains between Leeds and Knottingley via Castleford, in both directions, can only operate between Leeds and Pontefract Monkhill.

Trains between Leeds and Knottingley via Wakefield, in both directions, can only operate between Leeds and Pontefract Monkhill.

Until the issue is rectified, Knottingley will not have a train service.

Passengers at Leeds wishing to travel to Wakefield should use alternative Northern services.

To assist customers to complete their journey, road transport is operating. This will be provided by Ross Travel, Elite 16 seat vehicles and DM Motors as follows:

From Pontefract Monkhill to Knottingley at 06:30, and then XX:40 every hour from 07:40 until 21:40, then 22:45 and 23:59.

From Knottingley to Castleford at 07:10, and then XX:20 every hour from 08:20 until 21:20, then 22:25 and an additional 23:15 Knottingley stations to Glasshoughton and drop as required stations to Leeds.

Journey times will be extended by up to 45 minutes whilst travelling by rail replacement transport.

Should this issue continue, more road transport will be recruited and advertised.

A journey of around 5 minutes between Pontefract Monkhill and Knottingley must be close to some sort of record for shortest rail replacement bus journey! (although luckily Ross Travel are only down the road)

 

[skyhigh]

I don't think it's a landslip, but more an issue with ballast moving through/on a bridge. I think it first occurred on Saturday but has got progressively worse.

 

[yorkshireguy21]

I was travelling back from King's Cross up to Wakefield on GC on the Saturday that the landslip occurred (9th). The table adjacent to us were not happy about not being able to stop at Pontefract - as they had to get off at Doncaster instead!

Once we were at Wakefield Kirkgate, I noticed a small army of Network Rail vans leave the compound next to the station, I assume they were going to Knottingley.

Are there any images of the damage at/near Knottingley?

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Something sent from a friend of a colleague

 

[BrianW]

Something sent from a friend of a colleague

Another fine example of the need for ongoing attention to supporting infrastructure and resisting deferment and cuts to 'maintenance'.

 

[185]

I wonder if NR's tree-a-geddon a couple of years ago to reduce wheelslip is now at the point where the roots are rotting and the embankments are falling apart...

Twas an extremely unpoplar decision.

 

[The exile]

I wonder if NR's tree-a-geddon a couple of years ago to reduce wheelslip is now at the point where the roots are rotting and the embankments are falling apart...

Twas an extremely unpoplar decision.

Of course, if they’d not allowed the trees to grow in the first place - but accountants know best, don’t they!
As for the “unpoplar” decision - groan! Took me a couple of looks to twig!
Sure someone can do a root cause analysis.

 

[yorksrob]

The fact that it seems to be piddling down all the time probably doesn't help.

 

[duffield]

I wonder if there are any year-by-year railway landslip stats available?

The appearance is (to me anyhow) that this issue is getting very much worse, very rapidly. But some hard data on the number of landslip incidents leading to (say) the unplanned closure of at least one running line, broken down by year (and month), would be a lot more informative.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It's been a prolonged winter with record ground saturation which has been constantly topped up. No big Desmond style events but just constant.

 

[mpthomson]

Another fine example of the need for ongoing attention to supporting infrastructure and resisting deferment and cuts to 'maintenance'.

Much more likely related to the basically constant rain since November, leading to more ground saturation than I can remember for many years.

 

[BrianW]

It's been a prolonged winter with record ground saturation which has been constantly topped up. No big Desmond style events but just constant.

I wonder if there are any year-by-year railway landslip stats available?

The appearance is (to me anyhow) that this issue is getting very much worse, very rapidly. But some hard data on the number of landslip incidents leading to (say) the unplanned closure of at least one running line, broken down by year (and month), would be a lot more informative.

The fact that it seems to be piddling down all the time probably doesn't help.

I wonder if NR's tree-a-geddon a couple of years ago to reduce wheelslip is now at the point where the roots are rotting and the embankments are falling apart...

Twas an extremely unpoplar decision.

Does Network rail have resources and capability to assess the scale of the issue and what could/ should be done- to rectify and better still avoid this growing problem? have reports and recommendations been produced- and maybe ignored or deferred or sidelined?
Is it decided, for instance, whether trees, their leaves and their roots are good or bad overall?
Are lighter or heavier trains 'better'?
What is the appropriate cycle of 'tree management'- is it an art or science.or purely of economics and budget-reduction?
The Met Office and others have been predicting more, and more intense, 'rainfall events' for years, decades even- to what effect?
The data exists to be able to move beyond anecdote to informed action.'There's none so deaf as those who will not hear'.

Much more likely related to the basically constant rain since November, leading to more ground saturation than I can remember for many years.

 

[northwichcat]

A journey of around 5 minutes between Pontefract Monkhill and Knottingley must be close to some sort of record for shortest rail replacement bus journey! (although luckily Ross Travel are only down the road)

I think the Liverpool city centre loop closure on Merseyrail resulted in the shortest rail replacement bus journeys.

You should count yourself lucky it is a short replacement bus. All too often one little issue can cause half a line to be closed to trains. For instance, a fallen tree at Delamere can result in rail replacement buses from Greenbank to Chester.

 

[Crossover]

There now appears to be another T3 block between Pontefract West Junction and Featherstone - one of the berths says "WIRE"

The 12:58 service from Leeds is making its way towards Castleford currently, but the 13:45 Monkhill to Leeds service is already listed as cancelled between Monkhill and Kirkgate, so not sure what is due to happen to the 12:58, currently

EDIT: It looks like the 12:58 service has terminated at Castleford and I guess will proceed empty to Kirkgate

 

[skyhigh]

There now appears to be another T3 block between Pontefract West Junction and Featherstone - one of the berths says "WIRE"

The 12:58 service from Leeds is making its way towards Castleford currently, but the 13:45 Monkhill to Leeds service is already listed as cancelled between Monkhill and Kirkgate, so not sure what is due to happen to the 12:58, currently

EDIT: It looks like the 12:58 service has terminated at Castleford and I guess will proceed empty to Kirkgate

They are changing over the signalling power supply so needed a block on trains in the area.

 

[al78]

I wonder if there are any year-by-year railway landslip stats available?

The appearance is (to me anyhow) that this issue is getting very much worse, very rapidly. But some hard data on the number of landslip incidents leading to (say) the unplanned closure of at least one running line, broken down by year (and month), would be a lot more informative.

We've just gone through the fourth wettest 12 month period since records began in 1766 and March has started off with frequent rain with no sign of any prolonged settled period. Until the jet stream shifts back north to its climatological position the risk of landslips is going to remain elevated, especially across central and southern England where rainfall anomaly last month was highest.

 

[Crossover]

They are changing over the signalling power supply so needed a block on trains in the area.

Is that as a result of the issue with the slip?

 

[skyhigh]

Is that as a result of the issue with the slip?

Yes, I understand there's a cable that passes the site so they're swapping to provide power from elsewhere so the cable can be disturbed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does Network rail have resources and capability to assess the scale of the issue and what could/ should be done- to rectify and better still avoid this growing problem? have reports and recommendations been produced- and maybe ignored or deferred or sidelined?
Is it decided, for instance, whether trees, their leaves and their roots are good or bad overall?
[…]

You’ll probably never get a quick answer to that question. Some people believe tree roots help, and you’ll see others saying they are the cause of the problem. It’s been discussed in numerous previous threads often with contrary explanations.

It‘s also possible that some embankment failures are due to poor quality construction by the original builders, with faults lying dormant for generations...

 

[BrianW]

You’ll probably never get a quick answer to that question. Some people believe tree roots help, and you’ll see others saying they are the cause of the problem. It’s been discussed in numerous previous threads often with contrary explanations.

It‘s also possible that some embankment failures are due to poor quality construction by the original builders, with faults lying dormant for generations...

Indeed. Although, as I see, some Forumites may (think that they) know a thing or two about trees and their roots, I was hoping that, by now, and with the known consequences of inattention to them, someone may have commissioned/ undertaken a proper study of the matter and determined 'official' recommendations. maybe no-one is prepared to put their head above the parapet (to mix metaphors).

Regarding existing constructions, the 'knowledge' at the time may have been imperfect, though many might think better than today's standards. I felt at the time that the investigations in regard of the Carmont derailment gave some impetus to this, but it seems that lessons are hard to learn and put into effect. The Yarnton 'wing walls' are further evidence of need for continuing vigilance.

 

[snowball]

In discussions on here about trees near the line, the most usual concern is opposite to that expressed by BrianW above: the need to remove trees to reduce the danger caused by adhesion problems in autumn, such as the crash near Salisbury in October 2021, or the danger of trains hitting fallen trees, such as the HST that was badly damaged near Broughty Ferry in December 2023. Both of these could easily have caused fatalities.

As swt_passenger says, there has also been lots of discussion about whether tree roots strengthen or weaken earthwork slopes, with sometimes contrary views. On a forum like this some contributors have less knowledge and experience than others, so apparent chaos here may not necessarily mean that those who need to know, do not know.

 

[skyhigh]

From what I've read, it looks as if discussion around trees is a red herring here. The root cause (or even where all the ballast has actually gone) has yet to be discovered.

 

[Class 170101]

Note the map on Open train times appears to be mis-leading and is missing a crossover between Up and Down lines just 'west' of Monkhill to allow trains to Tanshelf to regain right road running.

 

[Kite159]

Note the map on Open train times appears to be mis-leading and is missing a crossover between Up and Down lines just 'west' of Monkhill to allow trains to Tanshelf to regain right road running.

I presume trains can't run 'wrong line' towards Glasshoughton and use the crossover between Monkhill & Glasshoughton? Assuming said crossover is available for use and isn't simply locked out of use?

 

[Class 170101]

I presume trains can't run 'wrong line' towards Glasshoughton and use the crossover between Monkhill & Glasshoughton? Assuming said crossover is available for use and isn't simply locked out of use?

But that takes you to Castleford not Tanshelf, there is a separate crossover for each route according to Quail.

 

[Bevan Price]

Some trees have deep roots, others have shallow roots, and as most of you will have noticed, some roots can push up the surface -- raised concrete pavements for example That affects how they behave in various weather conditions.
(Just don't ask me which trees have which type of roots.)

 

[Kite159]

But that takes you to Castleford not Tanshelf, there is a separate crossover for each route according to Quail.

So Northern can provide a service from Monkhill towards Leeds via Castleford in addition to the hourly Monkhill - Wakefield - Leeds service [so a passenger at Glasshoughton can travel to Leeds without the need to go via Monkhill + Wakefield]

 

[skyhigh]

I presume trains can't run 'wrong line' towards Glasshoughton and use the crossover between Monkhill & Glasshoughton? Assuming said crossover is available for use and isn't simply locked out of use?

You can turn back at Monkhill and continue in service towards either Glashoughton or Tanshelf.

It's not ideal though as the only signal provided is a position light. It'll be easier when the new signalling goes live as there will be a colour light too.

 

[BrianW]

From what I've read, it looks as if discussion around trees is a red herring here. The root cause (or even where all the ballast has actually gone) has yet to be discovered.

Red herring? I think I can see slipped land and trees in post#4.

Some trees have deep roots, others have shallow roots, and as most of you will have noticed, some roots can push up the surface -- raised concrete pavements for example That affects how they behave in various weather conditions.
(Just don't ask me which trees have which type of roots.)

Managed embankments should have 'known' tree species with root habits that will be known; unmanaged ones- who knows what has grown up?

It might be possible to exploit technology here too- drones and ground penetrating radar? Or a Measurement Train?? Should be possible to plot, and predict, changes in geological and hydrological behaviours in the 21st Century.

 

[Crossover]

Note the map on Open train times appears to be mis-leading and is missing a crossover between Up and Down lines just 'west' of Monkhill to allow trains to Tanshelf to regain right road running.

It is shown on Traksy, however

I presume trains can't run 'wrong line' towards Glasshoughton and use the crossover between Monkhill & Glasshoughton? Assuming said crossover is available for use and isn't simply locked out of use?

I did wonder the same, as trains are currently doing a roundabout. However the last train of the night last night (Monday), at least, terminated from Glasshoughton and then ran empties to Stourton

You can turn back at Monkhill and continue in service towards either Glashoughton or Tanshelf.

It's not ideal though as the only signal provided is a position light. It'll be easier when the new signalling goes live as there will be a colour light too.

Is this having to be done under some special arrangements (given that trains can’t ordinarily despatch against a position light)?