Another strike threat-southern drivers

[A-driver]

Only just come out but another threat of industrial action. I thought this would be the case as their pay talks have been going badly since October...

Excellent turn out though and very strong 'yes' vote. Once again way, way above Cameron's legal ballot proposals.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-05-20/southern-train-drivers-vote-to-strike-over-pay-row/

Train drivers on one of the country's busiest rail operators, Southern, have voted to go on strike in a row over pay, the Aslef union has announced.
Members of Aslef at Southern backed walkouts by 91% and other forms of industrial action by 95%. The turnout was 85.3%. The votes, and the turnout, were both well above a threshold being planned by the Government for union strike ballots.

Aslef said it is meeting the company tomorrow for talks to try to resolve the dispute.

 

[RJ]

A friend who works as a driver for them said he enjoys the "dinosaur" T&Cs. I say good on them if they can hold onto them. I wonder what has prompted the action - are they trying to get rid of some of the better T&Cs?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder if the Labour Party had been elected to power, then would we have seen the recent threat of strikes suddenly appearing.? Just like the old adage...None for ages then three come along at the same time...


There again, these might all be totally uncoincidental....:roll:

 

[A-driver]

A friend who works as a driver for them said he enjoys the "dinosaur" T&Cs. I say good on them if they can hold onto them. I wonder what has prompted the action - are they trying to get rid of some of the better T&Cs?

Not really, really pay talks have just dragged on far too long with southern refusing to budge being that it's the last year of the franchise. They are hiding behind the fact that the DfT need to sign off pay rises within the final year.

From what I understand from friends at southern they are fed up of being one of the worst paid TOCs (especially in/around London) and none of the offers from the company have been in any way reasonable to them.
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I wonder if the Labour Party had been elected to power, then would we have seen the recent threat of strikes suddenly appearing.? Just like the old adage...None for ages then three come along at the same time...





There again, these might all be totally uncoincidental....:roll:

Nothing to do with the government. This pay talk has been ongoing from October. This strike was inevitable the way the talks had been going. Same with the network rail strikes.

Sorry to disappoint you if you are after a good old conspiracy theory...

 

[SPADTrap]

I wonder if the Labour Party had been elected to power, then would we have seen the recent threat of strikes suddenly appearing.? Just like the old adage...None for ages then three come along at the same time...


There again, these might all be totally uncoincidental....:roll:

What are you wibbling on about?

 

[Tomnick]

I wonder if the Labour Party had been elected to power, then would we have seen the recent threat of strikes suddenly appearing.? Just like the old adage...None for ages then three come along at the same time...


There again, these might all be totally uncoincidental....:roll:

The balloting process for the first, and the biggest by far, of the three was well underway before the election. The majority of ballot papers would have been in the post long before the result was known, with very few expecting a Tory majority. Coincidence indeed!

 

[Kite159]

So what does the union want and what has Southern offered?

 

[Southern Dvr]

So what does the union want and what has Southern offered?

That is between Southern & the ASLEF membership & until it's resolved should not be discussed here. The action is not related to 'dinosaur T&C' it is related to SN not paying a competitive to other TOC salary.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Are there not "grandfather rights" or protection of T&C's for, perhaps the older, more senior drivers?

After all, they signed up to a contract when taken on (under BR) which (I assume) would have been TUPE'd across to Connex, then Southern and I can understand the upset if their contracts have been changed/eroded.

Not sure about the new(er) drivers who were taken on on Southern contracts

 

[LAX54]

I wonder if the Labour Party had been elected to power, then would we have seen the recent threat of strikes suddenly appearing.? Just like the old adage...None for ages then three come along at the same time...


There again, these might all be totally uncoincidental....:roll:

It could have been the Raving Loony Party in Office, the result would have been the same, Staff do not give two hoots who is in Number 10, if they are threatened, they will bite back. and anyway any current dispute will have started months and months ago, not last week !

 

[ComUtoR]

Are there not "grandfather rights" or protection of T&C's for, perhaps the older, more senior drivers?

After all, they signed up to a contract when taken on (under BR) which (I assume) would have been TUPE'd across to Connex, then Southern and I can understand the upset if their contracts have been changed/eroded.

Not sure about the new(er) drivers who were taken on on Southern contracts

No. Collective bargaining agreements are in place and the new contracts and conditions are accepted by ASLEF for all Drivers. Once you have been TUPE'd across you still get to a position where conditions will get renegotiated. TUPE protects your existing conditions but not new offers. Only if each Driver had single contracts would any form of T&C protection exist. BR conditions do exist in some form (Travel perks) and Some pension rights but those could easily be negotiated away but I think that would require ALL BR drivers to be involved in that change.

There are possibilities for new Drivers to have different terms and it is one technique that employers use to change terms but collective bargaining still covers most of the terms and remuneration levels. On my TOC new Drivers employees are automatically enrolled in the smart pension (at least that is what the literature states) but pensions are outside of the agreement so the TOC can set new contracts for new entrants.

 

[tony6499]

The sister company SE Trains got a far better deal for their drivers and negotiations have lingered on Southern for so long then a strike vote hopefully will ensure a deal is struck soon.

 

[ComUtoR]

The sister company SE Trains got a far better deal for their drivers and negotiations have lingered on Southern for so long then a strike vote hopefully will ensure a deal is struck soon.

The previous pay deal Southern Driver got a better deal.

With Southern due to be merged with GTR will the offer take you right up to the end of Southern ?

Hope you get a decent offer.

 

[LBSCR Times]

The sister company SE Trains got a far better deal for their drivers and negotiations have lingered on Southern for so long then a strike vote hopefully will ensure a deal is struck soon.

According to the ASLEF website, South Eastern drivers were on a lower basic salary to start with....

SE; £43,391
Southern; £44,776

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That is between Southern & the ASLEF membership & until it's resolved should not be discussed here.

So why bother opening this thread in the first place....or at least, not until more is forthcoming regarding the matter to which you allude above.
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It could have been the Raving Loony Party in Office, the result would have been the same, Staff do not give two hoots who is in Number 10, if they are threatened, they will bite back. and anyway any current dispute will have started months and months ago, not last week !

I was just making the point that the timing of those matters just seemed rather coincidental to the timing of the actual result of the General Election. Good to hear that some of the brothers "do not give two hoots who is in Number 10". Shades of Derek Hatton and the Militant Tendency come to mind when Neil Kinnock made his famous riposte to that extreme left-wing organisation when he made reference to "A Labour council using taxis to deliver redundancy notices"....or is that too, heretical to mention on this thread.

Or is it deemed heretical on this website to say such things at a time of negotiations backed by implied strike action when I am sure that some people on this website would have had us all "singing from the same hymn sheet in total posting solidarity with "the threatened" (your very own term)

We do not all espouse the aspiration to be as China was when the Red Terror had everyone waving their "Little Red Books" and no dissent was brooked.

 

[Southern313]

New offer on the table. Another referendum to take place.

 

[sarahj]

So why bother opening this thread in the first place....or at least, not until more is forthcoming regarding the matter to which you allude above.
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I was just making the point that the timing of those matters just seemed rather coincidental to the timing of the actual result of the General Election. Good to hear that some of the brothers "do not give two hoots who is in Number 10". Shades of Derek Hatton and the Militant Tendency come to mind when Neil Kinnock made his famous riposte to that extreme left-wing organisation when he made reference to "A Labour council using taxis to deliver redundancy notices"....or is that too, heretical to mention on this thread.

Or is it deemed heretical on this website to say such things at a time of negotiations backed by implied strike action when I am sure that some people on this website would have had us all "singing from the same hymn sheet in total posting solidarity with "the threatened" (your very own term)

We do not all espouse the aspiration to be as China was when the Red Terror had everyone waving their "Little Red Books" and no dissent was brooked.

The agreement that should have been done in October, has gone through so many offers and counter offers and discussions, splits in the union, local discussions, its just taken so long to get here and the timing is just purely coincidental. Other discussions with other grades are still ongoing, but have hit a brick wall as well. T&C's are involved as well.
Dissent is allowed, its just gets a bit boring when it becomes the 'I've not had a rise an XX years type and you should all just knuckle down'.

Dissent is also being miffed at those who rigged the FX for years and took massive bonuses and pays deals, yet seem to get away with it.
Dissent is also telling those who talk about trickle down and we should let folks hide all their cash away in Switzerland, to take a hike.
Dissent is also being miffed off being told how to vote by folks who run their companies via non dom shell's to avoid tax.

These, and many more are the things we should get miffed about and shout and scream, rather than at a few folks who would like a bit more cash to pay the bills, or better T&C's so they have the energy to have a life outside of work and not fall asleep as soon as they get home, or so the folks running your train are not having to work 5 hours non stop, perhaps never getting a chance to sit down for a moment, then having to rush a min break, before going out there and doing it all again.

I'm sure some will say, be glad you have a job. Perhaps we should all be on zero hour contracts, never knowing how to pay the bills and relying on benefits to top up wages and pay the rent. (which is what most of the benefit bills that does not go the OAP's goes on, wages top up to live.) In a land of food banks and zero hours and min wage jobs, I'm glad we have a union to help us shout and scream.

Anyway, my two cents.

 

[bussnapperwm]

The agreement that should have been done in October, has gone through so many offers and counter offers and discussions, splits in the union, local discussions, its just taken so long to get here and the timing is just purely coincidental. Other discussions with other grades are still ongoing, but have hit a brick wall as well. T&C's are involved as well.
Dissent is allowed, its just gets a bit boring when it becomes the 'I've not had a rise an XX years type and you should all just knuckle down'.

Dissent is also being miffed at those who rigged the FX for years and took massive bonuses and pays deals, yet seem to get away with it.
Dissent is also telling those who talk about trickle down and we should let folks hide all their cash away in Switzerland, to take a hike.
Dissent is also being miffed off being told how to vote by folks who run their companies via non dom shell's to avoid tax.

These, and many more are the things we should get miffed about and shout and scream, rather than at a few folks who would like a bit more cash to pay the bills, or better T&C's so they have the energy to have a life outside of work and not fall asleep as soon as they get home, or so the folks running your train are not having to work 5 hours non stop, perhaps never getting a chance to sit down for a moment, then having to rush a min break, before going out there and doing it all again.

I'm sure some will say, be glad you have a job. Perhaps we should all be on zero hour contracts, never knowing how to pay the bills and relying on benefits to top up wages and pay the rent. (which is what most of the benefit bills that does not go the OAP's goes on, wages top up to live.) In a land of food banks and zero hours and min wage jobs, I'm glad we have a union to help us shout and scream.

Anyway, my two cents.

Well said!

 

[FordFocus]

I wonder if the Labour Party had been elected to power, then would we have seen the recent threat of strikes suddenly appearing.? Just like the old adage...None for ages then three come along at the same time...


There again, these might all be totally uncoincidental....:roll:

What a load of boll*cks.

Talks started back in October. It does seem a while for pay talks and to stall after 7 months is not uncommon. The Northern Rail dispute took nearly 8 months to sort out and that also resulted in an ASLEF ballot with a high turnout (way more than the proposed new strike rules coming in) and a high percentage voting 'yes'. In the end a deal was made and no one lost out.

Southern never provided a offer suitable for the union after lots of meetings, so it ballots members to move things along. There reaches a point where action needs to be taken. The timing of an election has nothing to do with it, the company was given plenty of time to put forward something substantial for members to vote on but they never delivered.

What do you propose ASLEF do then? Sit on their hands for months waiting for the election to blow over and stall on progress for it's members? Company Council and the EC would have to go into hiding from the mob... Southern is a private company, so I fail to see which political party in power has anything to do with this dispute whether it be Labour, Tories or TUSC.

Sorry to wee on your anti-union post.

 

[Carlisle]

Southern never provided a offer suitable for the union after lots of meetings, so it ballots members to move things along. There reaches a point where action needs to be taken.

So clearly intimidation can come from both sides then

 

[otomous]

So clearly intimidation can come from both sides then

Yeah and the labour movement should have just not bothered organising itself in the first place. Comments like this make me weep, especially after we've just spent the last 40 years willingly accepting the widening gap between rich and poor, the curtailing of union power and the destruction of our industrial base. Let's just make the slide of the masses even easier shall we?

SarahJ, your comment was better than 2 cents, it was more like a couple of million. Thank you.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

.....we've just spent the last 40 years willingly accepting the widening gap between rich and poor, the curtailing of union power and the destruction of our industrial base. Let's just make the slide of the masses even easier shall we?

Not wishing to rain on your parade, but the antics of people like "Red Robbo" went a long way to achieving what other car-manufacturing nations could have only dreamed about. At the ago of 70, I can still remember those heady days of trades union militancy and wondered at the time who would have had the vested interests that lay behind some of the industrial debates in the once great heavy and manufacturing industries of Britain.

Then of course, in that same period, we saw the rise of the Militant Tendancy and of the iconic personage of Derek Hatton...:roll:

 

[otomous]

Not wishing to rain on your parade, but the antics of people like "Red Robbo" went a long way to achieving what other car-manufacturing nations could have only dreamed about. At the ago of 70, I can still remember those heady days of trades union militancy and wondered at the time who would have had the vested interests that lay behind some of the industrial debates in the once great heavy and manufacturing industries of Britain.

Then of course, in that same period, we saw the rise of the Militant Tendancy and of the iconic personage of Derek Hatton...:roll:

Oh please don't be coy...you clearly wished to rain on my parade. Human beings will take personal advantage of a situation as figures on the right and left have always done, sometimes notoriously. The state can act as a balance to extreme activities. But power from the workforce, unions, etc, are as pinpricks to the rise of global capital over the last few decades, using its influence on governments and media to foster its interests, trashing heavy industry, growing the financial sector and deliberately undermining labour rights to do so. And of course, achieve British Leyland-style state bailouts when it suits them. When they're not banging on about rolling back the frontiers of the state of course.

 

[FordFocus]

So clearly intimidation can come from both sides then

Wouldn't call it intimidation, I call it action. You do a series of negotiations to reach an agreement. When you start altering T&Cs, usually at the companies request and benefit then the union(s) have weigh up what the consequences and the effect on staff so these things can take longer to sort out.

When meetings reach lack of progress or agreement, the union will ballot for strike action. It's either that or the company just turn up at each meeting and propose exactly the same thing time and time again with zero progress been made. A ballot for action and a good result in favour normally gets the company to sit down and listen without any strike action going ahead. Look at the Northern Drivers dispute and Network Rail recently.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not wishing to rain on your parade, but the antics of people like "Red Robbo" went a long way to achieving what other car-manufacturing nations could have only dreamed about. At the ago of 70, I can still remember those heady days of trades union militancy and wondered at the time who would have had the vested interests that lay behind some of the industrial debates in the once great heavy and manufacturing industries of Britain.

Then of course, in that same period, we saw the rise of the Militant Tendancy and of the iconic personage of Derek Hatton...:roll:

Trade Unions have moved on since then Paul. No one turns up in the company back car park for a quick union meeting and a ballot for action by a show of hands during a fag break. It's done democratically and independently verified, which admittedly I think is a good thing. I doubt the majority of workers can afford even a week long strike compared to the 70s.

British Leyland died through a variety of different reasons. Lack of integration between brands, lack of R&D, poor management so not just industrial relations. This is about Southern though so I guess we won't go down that tangent

 

[Carlisle]

HVV

Oh please don't be coy...you clearly wished to rain on my parade. Human beings will take personal advantage of a situation as figures on the right and left have always done, sometimes notoriously. The state can act as a balance to extreme activities. But power from the workforce, unions, etc, are as pinpricks to the rise of global capital over the last few decades, using its influence on governments and media to foster its interests, trashing heavy industry, growing the financial sector and deliberately undermining labour rights to do so. And of course, achieve British Leyland-style state bailouts when it suits them. When they're not banging on about rolling back the frontiers of the state of course.

The rise of global capitalism has no doubt caused harm but much of the decline in the UKs industrial manufacturing can be traced alot further back to our various industries and governments failure to plan/modernise and invest long term to stay competitive in what became a much tougher worldwide market (rather than rely on international trade mostly with our former colonies) as we had done historically

 

[whoosh]

According to the ASLEF website, South Eastern drivers were on a lower basic salary to start with....

SE; £43,391
Southern; £44,776

SE is out of date (another pay deal that was running late). That's the figure from March 2013. March 2014's pay wasn't sorted out until about December 2014. A four year deal was then agreed.

A rise from March 2014, then a further rise in March 2015 means the current pay for South Eastern drivers is £47,067.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yeah and the labour movement should have just not bothered organising itself in the first place. Comments like this make me weep, especially after we've just spent the last 40 years willingly accepting the widening gap between rich and poor, the curtailing of union power and the destruction of our industrial base. Let's just make the slide of the masses even easier shall we?

SarahJ, your comment was better than 2 cents, it was more like a couple of million. Thank you.

Scargill has a lot to answer for.

 

[carriageline]

That is between Southern & the ASLEF membership & until it's resolved should not be discussed here. The action is not related to 'dinosaur T&C' it is related to SN not paying a competitive to other TOC salary.

Disagree. The Network Rail pay deal was blasted all over these forums, and I don't think should be hidden behind close doors!

Hope our southern brethren get what they deserve