Any thoughts on the CAM (Cambridge Autonomous Metro)?

[Ianno87]

Plenty of European cities have trams in that sort of setting.

You wouldn't design them like that now. And still on considerably more "planned" streets than higgledy-piggledy Cambridge.

 

[Dunnyrail]

I can see no reason why trams could not get in via Victoria Ave, Short Street, Emanuel Road, Emanuel St, then St.Neots Andrews simple run to the Station. Modern Short each bit multi section cars would go anywhere that the 6 wheel busses get to in Cambridge.

 

[Jozhua]

I'm increasingly becoming bus-pilled in terms of Cambridge. A good bus service with a few key routes run at high frequency (with wide operating hours), rapid-transit style stop spacing and clear route planning (think your typical tram/metro map) could provide a big boost. Certainly it seems where busways have gone they have provided this.

Cambridge is not a particularly large city. This isn't to say light rail wouldn't work, but resources may be better spent on getting a wider coverage of high quality service and the slight capacity decrease of buses might not be so bad.

If buses are used, they should adopt the following at minimum:
-Offboard fare payment and multi-door boarding (frankly it is ridiculous how long this is taking the UK to do.)
-Bus ways and dedicated 24 hour bus lanes for everywhere except areas with limited congestion.
-24/7 service running at headways of less than 15 minutes during the daytime, with headways of 30-60 minutes throughout the night.

The bus ways should be aiming to hit at least 60mph between larger stop spaces, so they are no more than double the equivalent congestion-free journey by car. Of course when congestion hits, they will be giving much shorter journey times much more consistently. If people can rely on the bus to get home at night, they will almost certainly be more willing to leave the car at home. Additionally, they could do some funky stuff like running extra routes during rush hour, to provide more single seat trips. Single floor rolling stock would probably prove more effective, possibly articulated buses - although I'm not sure how that would work on a guided busway!

While I don't think the cost of getting light rail on the existing busway would be too bad - would it be a practical option for serving places like Cambourne and St Neots? Certainly more practical than CAM, but an effective use of resources? Probably not. A guided busway seems like it could be a pretty cost effective solution for the capacities required. In Motion charging might be a consideration, especially if the position of the buses under the wires can be guaranteed!

 

[Dunnyrail]

I'm increasingly becoming bus-pilled in terms of Cambridge. A good bus service with a few key routes run at high frequency (with wide operating hours), rapid-transit style stop spacing and clear route planning (think your typical tram/metro map) could provide a big boost. Certainly it seems where busways have gone they have provided this.

Cambridge is not a particularly large city. This isn't to say light rail wouldn't work, but resources may be better spent on getting a wider coverage of high quality service and the slight capacity decrease of buses might not be so bad.

If buses are used, they should adopt the following at minimum:
-Offboard fare payment and multi-door boarding (frankly it is ridiculous how long this is taking the UK to do.)
-Bus ways and dedicated 24 hour bus lanes for everywhere except areas with limited congestion.
-24/7 service running at headways of less than 15 minutes during the daytime, with headways of 30-60 minutes throughout the night.

The bus ways should be aiming to hit at least 60mph between larger stop spaces, so they are no more than double the equivalent congestion-free journey by car. Of course when congestion hits, they will be giving much shorter journey times much more consistently. If people can rely on the bus to get home at night, they will almost certainly be more willing to leave the car at home. Additionally, they could do some funky stuff like running extra routes during rush hour, to provide more single seat trips. Single floor rolling stock would probably prove more effective, possibly articulated buses - although I'm not sure how that would work on a guided busway!

While I don't think the cost of getting light rail on the existing busway would be too bad - would it be a practical option for serving places like Cambourne and St Neots? Certainly more practical than CAM, but an effective use of resources? Probably not. A guided busway seems like it could be a pretty cost effective solution for the capacities required. In Motion charging might be a consideration, especially if the position of the buses under the wires can be guaranteed!

What you say is quite right, however for Cambridge it will probably not work as the general concept is “why should I be in a bus when I can be in my own personal space in the same traffic jam” the whole point about the greater oart of a Tramway or even the binned Cam is that it was to be a dedicated route free of traffic. This is the only way that either busses or any other alternative Public Transport system will get people out of their little tin boxes whether they be diesel, petrol of electricity powered. The .8 to 1.4 billion projected costs of dueling the A428 from Black Cat to Caxton would have paid for such a system lilely doing away for the need of this Road expenditure. Meanwhile while on the subject of busses the X5 has now long been binned for the 905 between Bedford and Cambridge partially as a Covid thing but now extended indefinitely via Cambourne, A428,A14 and Science Park due to traffic congestion along Malignly Road. What have many users done as a result of this? Well got back in their cars of course as the new route had been taking up to 2 hours in the rush. I now do not go to Cambridge at all anymore, if I do I get the train either via Peterborough or Hitchin as it is a nicer though more expensive option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What you say is quite right, however for Cambridge it will probably not work as the general concept is “why should I be in a bus when I can be in my own personal space in the same traffic jam” the whole point about the greater oart of a Tramway or even the binned Cam is that it was to be a dedicated route free of traffic. This is the only way that either busses or any other alternative Public Transport system will get people out of their little tin boxes whether they be diesel, petrol of electricity powered. The .8 to 1.4 billion projected costs of dueling the A428 from Black Cat to Caxton would have paid for such a system lilely doing away for the need of this Road expenditure. Meanwhile while on the subject of busses the X5 has now long been binned for the 905 between Bedford and Cambridge partially as a Covid thing but now extended indefinitely via Cambourne, A428,A14 and Science Park due to traffic congestion along Malignly Road. What have many users done as a result of this? Well got back in their cars of course as the new route had been taking up to 2 hours in the rush. I now do not go to Cambridge at all anymore, if I do I get the train either via Peterborough or Hitchin as it is a nicer though more expensive option.

The other key reason for the X5 being downgraded is that East West Rail will in due course kill it stone dead for medium-distance journeys. The coaches are going to Bristol from the western end with unbranded (i.e. Stagecoach "Fisher Price" livery, not white) standard spec double deckers replacing them too - that is not the sign of a route on the up. I'd expect some sort of Bicester-Buckingham-MK route to remain (as Buckingham isn't on EWR) but it will be a shadow of its former self. Though that said there is already MK-Buckingham on Arriva's X60 so possibly not even that.

As for using buses, to me they have to be electric ones. Diesel won't cut it any more.

 

[eastdyke]

I can see no reason why trams could not get in via Victoria Ave, Short Street, Emanuel Road, Emanuel St, then St.Neots Andrews simple run to the Station. Modern Short each bit multi section cars would go anywhere that the 6 wheel busses get to in Cambridge.

What you say is quite right, however for Cambridge it will probably not work as the general concept is “why should I be in a bus when I can be in my own personal space in the same traffic jam” the whole point about the greater oart of a Tramway or even the binned Cam is that it was to be a dedicated route free of traffic. .........

'Getting in' and out would pretty much takeover some of your suggested streets.
The presence of public utility apparatus in those streets and the need for the necessary access would pretty much exclude a tramway from some of them. Not of course to mention the buses and bus stops that would also need to be re-jigged.

All talk of novel schemes has delayed doing anything much at all for far too long. Time for the new Mayor to bite the bullet [he won't of course be new for very long!]

Better buses, better frequencies and less central car parking for non-residents of the central area, together with a car access charging scheme for non central area residents.

Please get on with it!

 

[Dunnyrail]

The other key reason for the X5 being downgraded is that East West Rail will in due course kill it stone dead for medium-distance journeys. The coaches are going to Bristol from the western end with unbranded (i.e. Stagecoach "Fisher Price" livery, not white) standard spec double deckers replacing them too - that is not the sign of a route on the up. I'd expect some sort of Bicester-Buckingham-MK route to remain (as Buckingham isn't on EWR) but it will be a shadow of its former self. Though that said there is already MK-Buckingham on Arriva's X60 so possibly not even that.

As for using buses, to me they have to be electric ones. Diesel won't cut it any more.

While what you say about the X5 may be true, East West will not be well into next decade, meanwhile punters from Bedford and St.Neots have a rubbish bus service to/from Cambridge.

 

[Jozhua]

What you say is quite right, however for Cambridge it will probably not work as the general concept is “why should I be in a bus when I can be in my own personal space in the same traffic jam” the whole point about the greater oart of a Tramway or even the binned Cam is that it was to be a dedicated route free of traffic. This is the only way that either busses or any other alternative Public Transport system will get people out of their little tin boxes whether they be diesel, petrol of electricity powered. The .8 to 1.4 billion projected costs of dueling the A428 from Black Cat to Caxton would have paid for such a system lilely doing away for the need of this Road expenditure. Meanwhile while on the subject of busses the X5 has now long been binned for the 905 between Bedford and Cambridge partially as a Covid thing but now extended indefinitely via Cambourne, A428,A14 and Science Park due to traffic congestion along Malignly Road. What have many users done as a result of this? Well got back in their cars of course as the new route had been taking up to 2 hours in the rush. I now do not go to Cambridge at all anymore, if I do I get the train either via Peterborough or Hitchin as it is a nicer though more expensive option.

When I mention it should be a bus, that includes creating dedicated infrastructure for it, such as a no comprimises guided busway.

From a brief look at google maps, an appropriate route out to Cambourne would probably be bus lanes to get out to where Madingley Rd P&R is, then a dedicated guided busway paralleling the A1303/St Neots Rd in to Cambourne. The guided busway could then squeeze along the border between the dual carriageway and Bourn airport, before getting access into Cambourne. The service would have stops spaced in a much less dense fashion compared to your average bus route, probably aiming for approximately 500m-1km apart, of course with the advantage of also being able to skip stops.

 

[Ianno87]

What you say is quite right, however for Cambridge it will probably not work as the general concept is “why should I be in a bus when I can be in my own personal space in the same traffic jam” the whole point about the greater oart of a Tramway or even the binned Cam is that it was to be a dedicated route free of traffic. This is the only way that either busses or any other alternative Public Transport system will get people out of their little tin boxes whether they be diesel, petrol of electricity powered. The .8 to 1.4 billion projected costs of dueling the A428 from Black Cat to Caxton would have paid for such a system lilely doing away for the need of this Road expenditure. Meanwhile while on the subject of busses the X5 has now long been binned for the 905 between Bedford and Cambridge partially as a Covid thing but now extended indefinitely via Cambourne, A428,A14 and Science Park due to traffic congestion along Malignly Road. What have many users done as a result of this? Well got back in their cars of course as the new route had been taking up to 2 hours in the rush. I now do not go to Cambridge at all anymore, if I do I get the train either via Peterborough or Hitchin as it is a nicer though more expensive option.

The X5 becoming the 905 is not "a Covid thing" - it is a response to a contract by the Combined Authority to serve the Science Park.

Appears to be routinely just as well loaded arriving in Cambridge as it ever was as the X5.

 

[biko]

Having followed this thread for a while, I've just had a look on Google Maps and Street View whether it really is as impossible to plan a tram as everyone says. First logical corridor through the city centre looking on a map is St Andrew's Street - Sidney Street - Bridge Street. St Andrew's Street looks very suitable for a tram, but Sidney Street is way too narrow. You could fit in one track, but that means unidirectional running as the narrow section is quite long. So I went looking for other possible streets for the other direction. However, there is the problem: parallel streets are not quite parallel and end at totally different roads or have very tight curves. I believe a curve in a tramway should have a minimum radius of around 20 m. There doesn't seem to be any route where every curve is larger.

Other suitable corridors serving the city centre are not present, so I think the street pattern doesn't lend itself to trams. Demand will be high to the centre so building a tram not serving the centre seems weird.

 

[gingerheid]

Having followed this thread for a while, I've just had a look on Google Maps and Street View whether it really is as impossible to plan a tram as everyone says. First logical corridor through the city centre looking on a map is St Andrew's Street - Sidney Street - Bridge Street. St Andrew's Street looks very suitable for a tram, but Sidney Street is way too narrow. You could fit in one track, but that means unidirectional running as the narrow section is quite long. So I went looking for other possible streets for the other direction. However, there is the problem: parallel streets are not quite parallel and end at totally different roads or have very tight curves. I believe a curve in a tramway should have a minimum radius of around 20 m. There doesn't seem to be any route where every curve is larger.

Other suitable corridors serving the city centre are not present, so I think the street pattern doesn't lend itself to trams. Demand will be high to the centre so building a tram not serving the centre seems weird.

With regret I agree. As much as I love trams and think all cities should have a network equivalent to their nearest E European counterpart (complete with stops in the middle of the road and drivers that may even be psycho in every other respect but that NEVER overtake a stopped tram), it's clearly not going to happen. The only tram / metro routes I could imagine would be Hills Rd, Trumpington Rd and East Rd into some kind of ridiculous one way loop round Parker's Piece. It would be far from either ideal or completely practical, and it would cause disruption to roads (including buses) that would be hard to justify. There's also no obvious way at all of getting W, NW or N.

This leads me to conclude that, for Cambridge, busways may not be the daftest idea. (For clarity; note I didn't include the word guided).

 

[Jozhua]

With regret I agree. As much as I love trams and think all cities should have a network equivalent to their nearest E European counterpart (complete with stops in the middle of the road and drivers that may even be psycho in every other respect but that NEVER overtake a stopped tram), it's clearly not going to happen. The only tram / metro routes I could imagine would be Hills Rd, Trumpington Rd and East Rd into some kind of ridiculous one way loop round Parker's Piece. It would be far from either ideal or completely practical, and it would cause disruption to roads (including buses) that would be hard to justify. There's also no obvious way at all of getting W, NW or N.

This leads me to conclude that, for Cambridge, busways may not be the daftest idea. (For clarity; note I didn't include the word guided).

The only logical way of getting light rail through the city centre would be a tunnel, but I don't think there are many places you could do a cut and cover station setup.

Mainly I think buses lend themselves better to the sort of region they are covering. Lots of fairly small satellite towns with relatively large distances between them.

Busways should be high quality however and not compromise on getting high quality, dedicated paths around the region so that service can not only be fast, but consistent.

I disagree guided busways are a bad idea. The equipment needed to fit this on the buses is pretty cheap and easy, alongside the guideways allowing for a narrower road and a much higher speed for that given width. The reason many guided busways are done is to maintain gauging on old rail routes, where bridge clearances and the like can be tricky. They definitely have benefits compared to dedicated bus roads. (these are good also though)

Current road transport pantograph tech requires tracking the two wires, whereas a guided busway would make maintaining the live/neutral connections much easier. It could make introducing in-motion charging very easy!

 

[Dunnyrail]

The only logical way of getting light rail through the city centre would be a tunnel, but I don't think there are many places you could do a cut and cover station setup.

Mainly I think buses lend themselves better to the sort of region they are covering. Lots of fairly small satellite towns with relatively large distances between them.

Busways should be high quality however and not compromise on getting high quality, dedicated paths around the region so that service can not only be fast, but consistent.

I disagree guided busways are a bad idea. The equipment needed to fit this on the buses is pretty cheap and easy, alongside the guideways allowing for a narrower road and a much higher speed for that given width. The reason many guided busways are done is to maintain gauging on old rail routes, where bridge clearances and the like can be tricky. They definitely have benefits compared to dedicated bus roads. (these are good also though)

Current road transport pantograph tech requires tracking the two wires, whereas a guided busway would make maintaining the live/neutral connections much easier. It could make introducing in-motion charging very easy!

Oh are you talking Trolley Busses now?

 

[Jozhua]

Oh are you talking Trolley Busses now?

Not necessarily! - not using traditional trolley poles but instead pantographs, similar to the trail being set up with trucks soon:
https://www.commercialfleet.org/new...o-be-electrified-in-20m-electric-truck-trials

If you used a guided busway, you could possibly remove the need for the tracking of the cantenary wires.

But I think the concept of in motion charging using either trollies/pantographs might be worth exploring for these high capacity bus ways. It would certainly make electrifying the fleet much easier if you could spend 50% of the journey running on wires and charging batteries at the same time!

Even if they just go with BEVs, I think a bus-based system should be built using electric vehicles from day one. Either with infrastructure for charging at terminus stations, in motion charging, or both!

 

[gingerheid]

I disagree guided busways are a bad idea.

I was just looking to avoid the topic. I actually think the guided busway has also been a great success, but it didn't seem like the controversial opinion to throw into this discussion (particularly on a rail forum)!!!

It's maybe not good compared to what a railway could have been in an ideal world, but with even more regret I think it's been better than the half-baked way we as a country that's useless at public transport would actually have opened it as a railway (we'd have opened it with an hourly service going to a railway station at the edge of St Ives that wasn't served by any bus routes, we'd have made it a single track line with short stations, it would have opened to massive overcrowding and we'd have solved that by waiting until people got fed up and stopped trying, ...)

 

[Ianno87]

I was just looking to avoid the topic. I actually think the guided busway has also been a great success, but it didn't seem like the controversial opinion to throw into this discussion (particularly on a rail forum)!!!

It's maybe not good compared to what a railway could have been in an ideal world, but with even more regret I think it's been better than the half-baked way we as a country that's useless at public transport would actually have opened it as a railway (we'd have opened it with an hourly service going to a railway station at the edge of St Ives that wasn't served by any bus routes, we'd have made it a single track line with short stations, it would have opened to massive overcrowding and we'd have solved that by waiting until people got fed up and stopped trying, ...)

Even if you double tracked all the way to St Ives, the actual frequency you could run a railway at would always be hamstrung by available capacity at Cambridge.

 

[gingerheid]

Even if you double tracked all the way to St Ives, the actual frequency you could run a railway at would always be hamstrung by available capacity at Cambridge.

Yes And we keep building things on all the places the railway / station could expand onto.

 

[Jozhua]

I was just looking to avoid the topic. I actually think the guided busway has also been a great success, but it didn't seem like the controversial opinion to throw into this discussion (particularly on a rail forum)!!!

It's maybe not good compared to what a railway could have been in an ideal world, but with even more regret I think it's been better than the half-baked way we as a country that's useless at public transport would actually have opened it as a railway (we'd have opened it with an hourly service going to a railway station at the edge of St Ives that wasn't served by any bus routes, we'd have made it a single track line with short stations, it would have opened to massive overcrowding and we'd have solved that by waiting until people got fed up and stopped trying, ...)

Why does that story sound familiar to pretty much the whole modern railway network!

Obviously trains have a lot of major benefits over buses, but it's important to be able to take a step back and realise when rail really isn't the best solution.

Even light rail is far too intensive for what is needed here - really what is needed is just a high quality bus route with 10 minute peak frequencies and dedicated transit ways.

Even if you double tracked all the way to St Ives, the actual frequency you could run a railway at would always be hamstrung by available capacity at Cambridge.

Oh yeah having it be a national rail thing would be a disaster.

 

[camflyer]

Time for yet another public consultation

Proposals that could see buses every few minutes in the city centre have gone out for public consultation today (Monday, November 8).

Residents will also be asked to consider road charging measure options to fund the improved public transport network in the future, including a flexible charge, a pollution charge or parking charge.

Have your say on plans for improved Greater Cambridge bus service paid for by congestion charge

Residents will also be asked to consider road charging measure options to fund the improved public transport network in the future.

www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk

Full consultation document is here: https://consultcambs.uk.engagementhq.com/making-connections-2021

 

[Tobbes]

Instead of fake-tram CAM nonsense, an actual tram system, please...

 

[Jim the Jim]

The thing is, to make a tram system you need to close off parts of roads to traffic. And once you've done that you might as well save money and use buses instead (since possibly the biggest problem with the existing bus network is getting stuck in traffic jams).

 

[Tobbes]

I'm more than ok closing off some roads in Cambs for trams, but the plan to tunnel under the city cemtre seems the most sensible way forward.

 

[rebmcr]

The thing is, to make a tram system you need to close off parts of roads to traffic. And once you've done that you might as well save money and use buses instead (since possibly the biggest problem with the existing bus network is getting stuck in traffic jams).

There are already plans to close more roads in the town centre anyway, independent of any public transport upgrades.

 

[edwin_m]

There are already plans to close more roads in the town centre anyway, independent of any public transport upgrades.

I doubt there are too many that can be closed without compromising essential access for deliveries etc. A parked truck taking half the road may not block a bus but will probably block a tram. So if the tram used any of the narrow city centre streets any deliveries to places on those streets without off-street loading bays (most of them at a guess) could only take place in the middle of the night when there is no tram operating.

And that's before we even get to the hordes of cyclists.

 

[daodao]

And that's before we even get to the hordes of cyclists.

Tram tracks and cyclists don't work well together. Trams are a daft idea for Cambridge. The region has already chosen segregated busways where possible, and these could be developed further.

 

[Ianno87]

Tram tracks and cyclists don't work well together.

Have you ever been to Amsterdam? Trams and bikes are the main forms of urban transport in the city centre.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The thing is, to make a tram system you need to close off parts of roads to traffic. And once you've done that you might as well save money and use buses instead (since possibly the biggest problem with the existing bus network is getting stuck in traffic jams).

We need a "Common Tram Fallacies" thread to go with the bus and train ones. Segregated running is the preferred option but isn't essential. Prague manages fine using signal priority at junctions in most places.

I'm more than ok closing off some roads in Cambs for trams, but the plan to tunnel under the city cemtre seems the most sensible way forward.

What are the ground conditions like in Cambridge? What's the elevation of the city centre? Would climate change be a problem in terms of drainage?

 

[Ianno87]

We need a "Common Tram Fallacies" thread to go with the bus and train ones. Segregated running is the preferred option but isn't essential. Prague manages fine using signal priority at junctions in most places.

Case in point: Watch Don Coffey's latest cab ride video (Metrolink Ashton to Eccles) to see how effective shared running with junction priority can be:

 

[edwin_m]

We need a "Common Tram Fallacies" thread to go with the bus and train ones. Segregated running is the preferred option but isn't essential. Prague manages fine using signal priority at junctions in most places.

What are the ground conditions like in Cambridge? What's the elevation of the city centre? Would climate change be a problem in terms of drainage?

Segregated running with anything more than buses or local access traffic is a bad idea. Why go to all the trouble and expense of laying tracks if the tram gets stuck in the same traffic jam? In fact it's worse, because it can't pass a parked vehicle.

Case in point: Watch Don Coffey's latest cab ride video (Metrolink Ashton to Eccles) to see how effective shared running with junction priority can be:

Most of Ashton to Manchester is segregated in at least one direction, and there is a parallel road for through traffic (Ashton Old Road vs Ashton New Road). Eccles only has a fairly short section on street and again there is an alternative route for through traffic. In Cambridge there is no through traffic in the centre (but see above point about deliveries and cyclists) but plenty of traffic on all the radial routes.

 

[Ianno87]

Most of Ashton to Manchester is segregated in at least one direction, and there is a parallel road for through traffic (Ashton Old Road vs Ashton New Road). Eccles only has a fairly short section on street and again there is an alternative route for through traffic.

If you watch the video, that's not the case at all.