Anytime single pricing

[ficedula]

Vagueness probably not necessary, but just in case somebody from my local TOC is monitoring the forums and is annoyed by the potential savings, particularly given point (3) below...

I commute between the station where I live (A) and the station closest to my office (B).

If I want to get a return, then a straightforward A-B return is cheapest, that's nice and straightforward.

However due to the nature of my work it's (becoming) somewhat common that I only want a single (and will return/get dropped off at my home by another method of transport).

It's cheaper for me to get a single from A-C rather than A-B, where C is a station, near B, which can only be accessed by changing at B. The cheaper single is listed on NRE as an Anytime ticket.

Questions:

1) Since it's an Anytime ticket, which as far as I can see allows fully flexible break of journey, starting/ending journey short, I'm not breaking any rules by using it to travel only A-B and never completing my change onto the B-C leg?
2) When I find the fare on NRE - or a ticket booking website - they only provide itinaries for some of the A-B trains. I assume that's because trains B-C are only 1tph, and so they're not bothering to suggest earlier trains from A-B which would only mean waiting longer for the same B-C connection. However I don't care about that of course. Again, since it's an Anytime ticket, I presume I'm OK to take any A-B train?
3) The website of my local TOC won't sell me the cheap A-C Anytime ticket (they list a higher price than NRE - the same price as an A-B single, not sure if that's a coincidence or not!), but the website of a different TOC will sell it to me at the NRE indicated price (which makes it worth my while). I don't know yet what price my local TOC's TVMs indicate, but I may go and find out now the question occurs to me...
3a) Is this indicative of some kind of easement or pricing rule that my local TOC isn't applying correctly? Or a rule that NRE/other TOC aren't applying correctly but should be?!
3b) In the second case, presumably once I have an Anytime ticket in my hand, I'm completely clear to travel even if I ended up paying a lower price than would have been correct - any discrepancy is the ticket retailer's problem?

FWIW, the savings involved are likely to add up to a £100-200 per year - so not massive money, but enough that I'm willing to undergo the inconvenience of not just buying the simplest tickets / potentially having to buy in advance and collect...!

 

[kieron]

1, 2) With an anytime ticket, you can catch any train for all or part of a valid route between your starting and finishing stations. Single tickets aren't priced in a consistent way, so it's fairly common for a longer distance ticket to be cheaper than a shorter one.

3) There could be any number of reasons why a web site offers you a different ticket to the one you're expecting. The best thing you could do to work out what is happening would be to find out what exactly they'd like to sell you. brfares.com is a web site which can list all of the tickets sold from one station to another (although it also lists some tickets you can't buy). Both the ticket you want and the ticket they're trying to sell you should be A-C tickets, so if you find the list of those you may be able to work out how one ticket differs from the other. That may give you some indication of what they're doing.

3b) You're not expected to work out which web site is right. If you're concerned, though, then you could show any staff who question your ticket an itinerary from NRE (either on a phone or as a printout). Whether it's right or wrong, you have the ticket the web site told you to get.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

1) Since it's an Anytime ticket, which as far as I can see allows fully flexible break of journey, starting/ending journey short, I'm not breaking any rules by using it to travel only A-B and never completing my change onto the B-C leg?

Correct. Subject to any route or company restriction printed on the ticket, or a time restriction by virtue of a Railcard discount, Anytime tickets are valid on any train along any permitted route from the printed origin to the printed destination. Break of journey is permitted on all Anytime tickets.

2) When I find the fare on NRE - or a ticket booking website - they only provide itinaries for some of the A-B trains. I assume that's because trains B-C are only 1tph, and so they're not bothering to suggest earlier trains from A-B which would only mean waiting longer for the same B-C connection. However I don't care about that of course. Again, since it's an Anytime ticket, I presume I'm OK to take any A-B train?

Correct, most journey planners only offer non-overtaken itineraries. Some will suggest overtaken itineraries provided there is a cheaper fare available but not all will. If you want to 'prove' the validity on the specific train you intend to catch, you can use a site like www.trainsplit.com to manually add an extra amount of time for the interchange at a given station, thereby forcing you onto an earlier service.

3) The website of my local TOC won't sell me the cheap A-C Anytime ticket (they list a higher price than NRE - the same price as an A-B single, not sure if that's a coincidence or not!), but the website of a different TOC will sell it to me at the NRE indicated price (which makes it worth my while). I don't know yet what price my local TOC's TVMs indicate, but I may go and find out now the question occurs to me...
3a) Is this indicative of some kind of easement or pricing rule that my local TOC isn't applying correctly? Or a rule that NRE/other TOC aren't applying correctly but should be?!

There are numerous errors in the way that different booking engines and sites implement fares, especially where it's anything but the most straightforward situations. Go with whichever is most favourable for you!

3b) In the second case, presumably once I have an Anytime ticket in my hand, I'm completely clear to travel even if I ended up paying a lower price than would have been correct - any discrepancy is the ticket retailer's problem?

Who's to say what the "correct" price is? The nature of our fares system is that the TOC is saying that if you want a ticket from A to B you must pay £X, but that if you want a ticket from A to C you must pay £X-1. They are not saying that you must have a ticket from A to B, or that you must have paid £X, in order to travel from A to B. You could have any ticket you liked, as long as it's valid route and timewise. In fact, you might be paying far less than any of these fares if, for example, you were using an Advance to or from further afield!

 

[najaB]

It's cheaper for me to get a single from A-C rather than A-B, where C is a station, near B, which can only be accessed by changing at B.

Is that true at all times? Are there any direct A-C trains at all?

 

[ficedula]

Thanks for the advice all! Will be trying this today, hopefully the guard either doesn't question it, or is happy to accept an itinerary as evidence it's a valid journey (which it seems fairly clear, it definitely is.)

@kieron - Thanks for the suggestion of checking on BRfares: this suggests that the lower fare is the correct one (the higher fare is part of group that BRfares notes as 'N.B. This group of fares is overridden by another') so I guess my local TOC is overcharging for this ticket! Of course, I'm not keen to bring their attention to that if it means they realise there's a potential loophole here...

Interestingly, Brfares confirms it's not just singles that are cheaper than direct A-B tickets - returns and seasons are as well. Which I suppose I should have expected - I'm not sure why I thought they weren't.

Is that true at all times? Are there any direct A-C trains at all?

That's a good question, which makes me think of something else! There are a very few trains per day which go direct A-C. The situation is actually a bit more complex than I originally outlined in my first post, the line looks rather like this:

A---------------------------------------C--B

In other words, all trains A-B pass through C, but the vast majority do not stop at C - it's a very minor station which is very close to B. AFAICT it's about two trains per day do stop at C - one early in the morning, one late in the evening. At all other times of day, NRE tells you to get a train A-B and change at B.

I will be travelling well away from times when direct trains are possible, which I assume makes my journey valid. If I happened to be travelling very early/late when one of the direct trains was running, I wouldn't expect "changing" at B was valid for the specific train (since you don't need to, then).

However! What would happen if I had a season ticket, A-C (which it turns out is ~25% cheaper than a A-B season).

1) I would have to follow the rules for walk up tickets; at times of day when it's not possible to travel direct A-C, then I would have to change at B (and like all seasons, could stop my journey there?)
or, 2) Because at some times of day, you have to change at B, an A-C season is always valid to travel to B, even on one of the few trains which actually does stop at C?

...I'll only rarely travel at a time which this might be a factor, but it's an interesting complication to consider! Since I don't travel every day, and don't need a return every day, it's not clear that a season is worthwhile ... but if I did travel return 5 days a week, this would offer a quite substantial saving.

 

[najaB]

That's a good question, which makes me think of something else! There are a very few trains per day which go direct A-C. The situation is actually a bit more complex than I originally outlined in my first post, the line looks rather like this:

A---------------------------------------C--B

In other words, all trains A-B pass through C, but the vast majority do not stop at C - it's a very minor station which is very close to B

So, it sounds like there's an easement in place - this isn't uncommon. It doesn't stop the ticket being used in the way you intend, but it could possibly lead to issues if you encounter staff who aren't familiar with the easement. Be prepared to stand your ground if that does happen.

However! What would happen if I had a season ticket, A-C (which it turns out is ~25% cheaper than a A-B season).

A season ticket allows you to use any permitted route, and you can break/start your journey at any station along that route, so the above advice applies equally to season tickets.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks for the advice all! Will be trying this today, hopefully the guard either doesn't question it, or is happy to accept an itinerary as evidence it's a valid journey (which it seems fairly clear, it definitely is.)

@kieron - Thanks for the suggestion of checking on BRfares: this suggests that the lower fare is the correct one (the higher fare is part of group that BRfares notes as 'N.B. This group of fares is overridden by another') so I guess my local TOC is overcharging for this ticket! Of course, I'm not keen to bring their attention to that if it means they realise there's a potential loophole here...

Interestingly, Brfares confirms it's not just singles that are cheaper than direct A-B tickets - returns and seasons are as well. Which I suppose I should have expected - I'm not sure why I thought they weren't.



That's a good question, which makes me think of something else! There are a very few trains per day which go direct A-C. The situation is actually a bit more complex than I originally outlined in my first post, the line looks rather like this:

A---------------------------------------C--B

In other words, all trains A-B pass through C, but the vast majority do not stop at C - it's a very minor station which is very close to B. AFAICT it's about two trains per day do stop at C - one early in the morning, one late in the evening. At all other times of day, NRE tells you to get a train A-B and change at B.

I will be travelling well away from times when direct trains are possible, which I assume makes my journey valid. If I happened to be travelling very early/late when one of the direct trains was running, I wouldn't expect "changing" at B was valid for the specific train (since you don't need to, then).

However! What would happen if I had a season ticket, A-C (which it turns out is ~25% cheaper than a A-B season).

1) I would have to follow the rules for walk up tickets; at times of day when it's not possible to travel direct A-C, then I would have to change at B (and like all seasons, could stop my journey there?)
or, 2) Because at some times of day, you have to change at B, an A-C season is always valid to travel to B, even on one of the few trains which actually does stop at C?

...I'll only rarely travel at a time which this might be a factor, but it's an interesting complication to consider! Since I don't travel every day, and don't need a return every day, it's not clear that a season is worthwhile ... but if I did travel return 5 days a week, this would offer a quite substantial saving.

The validity of the ticket from A to C will depend on the precise circumstances in the absence of an itinerary. But suffice to say, if you can get an itinerary in conjunction with the purchase of a season ticket (e.g. on the TransPennine Express website) then it is demonstrably and contractually valid.