Appeal Advice

[throwawayone]

Hello all,

My ticket blew away in the wind as I was trying to leave Basingstoke station after coming from London Waterloo. I was charged with a penalty fare of £130 for not having a ticket despite me showing on my banking app that I had purchased a ticket, and explaining that it's incredibly unlikely I could have been in that situation without a ticket. Anyone know my odds for appealing the fine, as a student I cannot afford to pay this kind of money.

Thank you

 

[AlterEgo]

Hello all,

My ticket blew away in the wind as I was trying to leave Basingstoke station after coming from London Waterloo. I was charged with a penalty fare of £130 for not having a ticket despite me showing on my banking app that I had purchased a ticket, and explaining that it's incredibly unlikely I could have been in that situation without a ticket. Anyone know my odds for appealing the fine, as a student I cannot afford to pay this kind of money.

Thank you

Could you upload a copy of the notice with your personal details attached? Where were you stopped exactly, and what ticket did you have?

"My dog ate it" "It blew away" "I lost it" aren't valid reasons to appeal a penalty fare and I expect them to be unsuccessful, but you may have grounds to appeal if the notice is not compliant or you have been charged the incorrect fare.

 

[Gloster]

Hello all,

My ticket blew away in the wind as I was trying to leave Basingstoke station after coming from London Waterloo. I was charged with a penalty fare of £130 for not having a ticket despite me showing on my banking app that I had purchased a ticket, and explaining that it's incredibly unlikely I could have been in that situation without a ticket. Anyone know my odds for appealing the fine, as a student I cannot afford to pay this kind of money.

Thank you

If you received any paperwork, please post it in this thread so that the experts know exactly how this is being dealt with. Please obscure your name, address and any identifying details, such as reference numbers.

 

[throwawayone]

Could you upload a copy of the notice with your personal details attached? Where were you stopped exactly, and what ticket did you have?

"My dog ate it" "It blew away" "I lost it" aren't valid reasons to appeal a penalty fare and I expect them to be unsuccessful, but you may have grounds to appeal if the notice is not compliant or you have been charged the incorrect fare.

If you received any paperwork, please post it in this thread so that the experts know exactly how this is being dealt with. Please obscure your name, address and any identifying details, such as reference numbers.

Thank you for the quick reply!
As I've mentioned , I have bank details showing I purchased the ticket - this was refused at the gate.

Not sure if it's relevant but my ticket was checked on the train to Basingstoke.

 

[John R]

There’s no way that staff can know whether the ticket purchased and shown on the bank statement has been used by someone else unfortunately. It would be far too easy a scam if it were allowed.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you for the quick reply!
As I've mentioned , I have bank details showing I purchased the ticket - this was refused at the gate.

Yes, as it would be - proof of paying for a ticket isn’t the same as having a ticket I’m afraid. There’s nothing to say you didn’t refund the ticket, or pass it to someone else to use. Tickets aren’t personalised and work a bit like banknotes in that respect.

Not sure if it's relevant but my ticket was checked on the train to Basingstoke.

The important thing is that you didn’t have it with you when you exited.

Can we see the whole notice? It appears compliant from what we can see, but we need to see the entire thing to assess whether you have any chance of a technical appeal, including things like whether the notice contains explanations of your entitlement to a receipt for payment, etc.

 

[island]

The Penalty Fare has been issued for the wrong amount and is therefore invalid.

If you travelled on the 16:05 from Waterloo it should have been £129.70. If you were on an earlier train it should have been £123.10.

As a result the Penalty Fare can be appealed on the grounds it was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

 

[WesternLancer]

Op should be advised that the £50 discount on the penalty fare for prompt payment is paused whilst all stages of the appeal are underway. Appeals must be submitted as detailed in the paperwork to the official appeal body ie not some e mail to customer services for example.

 

[throwawayone]

The Penalty Fare has been issued for the wrong amount and is therefore invalid.

If you travelled on the 16:05 from Waterloo it should have been £129.70. If you were on an earlier train it should have been £123.10.

As a result the Penalty Fare can be appealed on the grounds it was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

Hello ,
Thanks for this - not that I dont believe you but how can I verify this and explain it in the appeal ?

 

[ikcdab]

Well you can try to appeal but it is unlikely to succeed. How strong was the wind? Tickets don't normally blow that far, merely flutter a few yards down the platform. And you were still in the station, not out on the open streets. Unless it went onto the track and if it had done that you could have shown the station staff.
And if the amount is in error by 30p (I haven't checked), again that technicality is unlikely to cut any ice.
But best to draft something up, post it here and you will get good advice.
Check on the website BRFares for the actual price of the ticket to check the penalty claimed.

See attached, which is it, 29.70 or £30

 

[JBuchananGB]

The Penalty Fare is based on the Anytime Day Single route Any Permitted at £30 which is what one would expect. No obvious grounds to appeal.

 

[island]

The Penalty Fare is based on the Anytime Day Single route Any Permitted at £30 which is what one would expect. No obvious grounds to appeal.

Incorrect. The amount of the Penalty Fare is to be issued based on the route used and time travelled. See regulation 9 (6) of the Railways Penalty Fares Regulations 2018.

 

[AlterEgo]

And if the amount is in error by 30p (I haven't checked), again that technicality is unlikely to cut any ice.

It’s for the wrong fare, as @island has astutely realised. I agree with him that the PF is invalid on these grounds and is bound to succeed. The passenger has been overcharged.

 

[throwawayone]

Incorrect. The amount of the Penalty Fare is to be issued based on the route used and time travelled. See regulation 9 (6) of the Railways Penalty Fares Regulations 2018.

Thank you so much for this.
So to clarify , I was charged for an Anytime Day Single route Any Permitted...which is incorrect and therefore gives me a decent chance at an appeal ?

It’s for the wrong fare, as @island has astutely realised. I agree with him that the PF is invalid on these grounds and is bound to succeed. The passenger has been overcharged.

Bound to succeed? This is promising, thank you so much. Apologies for the stupid question but how should I word my appeal, is there anything in particular I should mention?

 

[AlterEgo]

Bound to succeed? This is promising, thank you so much. Apologies for the stupid question but how should I word my appeal, is there anything in particular I should mention?

Bound to succeed on the strength of it being for the wrong amount, yes. It’s not a guarantee, but the law compels the Penalty Fare be overturned and it’s up to you to tell them that in the appeal.

A few other users are better versed in how to word appeals to the letter than I am, I am sure they will be along soon.

 

[ikcdab]

By all means draft the appeal. But I don't think it will succeed. We have seen previously that appeals on such technical grounds fail. The fact is that you could not present a ticket and there are no mitigations. The fact that the penalty fare was made out for 30p too much will not overturn the fact that you could not present a ticket.
But try the appeal and see what happens. You have nothing to lose.

 

[furlong]

But I don't think it will succeed.

So you think the appeals body will breach the law under which it operates?

In a matter like this one, if the appeals body accepts the facts it is required to uphold an appeal. (Failing to do so would open the decision maker(s) to potential prosecution in my opinion.)

 

[ikcdab]

We may well think that but we have seen time and time again that appeals launched on purely technical grounds are often rejected. And rightly so. The boards have a degree of discretion. In general terms, if someone has clearly evaded their fare but appeals on the fact that (for example) the penalty notice had incorrect wording or the penalty notice quoted £130 when it should be £129.70 then quite rightly the appeal should be rejected.

 

[island]

(Failing to do so would open the decision maker(s) to potential prosecution in my opinion.)

There is exactly zero chance of that happening, even if the appeal is rejected which it should not be.

 

[AlterEgo]

We may well think that but we have seen time and time again that appeals launched on purely technical grounds are often rejected. And rightly so. The boards have a degree of discretion

They don’t actually have any discretion when the Regulations have been breached. If they apply the law in error that is not discretion.

. In general terms, if someone has clearly evaded their fare but appeals on the fact that (for example) the penalty notice had incorrect wording or the penalty notice quoted £130 when it should be £129.70 then quite rightly the appeal should be rejected.

It would be wrongly rejected, in fact, as the notice was not made out in line with the Regulations.

The appeal panel is not there to determine intent or criminality, only whether the Regulations have been breached or not.

 

[Hadders]

We may well think that but we have seen time and time again that appeals launched on purely technical grounds are often rejected. And rightly so. The boards have a degree of discretion. In general terms, if someone has clearly evaded their fare but appeals on the fact that (for example) the penalty notice had incorrect wording or the penalty notice quoted £130 when it should be £129.70 then quite rightly the appeal should be rejected.

They don’t actually have any discretion when the Regulations have been breached. If they apply the law in error that is not discretion.



It would be wrongly rejected, in fact, as the notice was not made out in line with the Regulations.

The appeal panel is not there to determine intent or criminality, only whether the Regulations have been breached or not.

I agree that the Appeals Panel must uphold an appeal if the Penalty Fare has not been issued in accordance with the Regulations.

One problem is how the appeal is worded. If you're relying on a 'technicality' then the appeal needs to be very specific about why this applies. I suspect many such appeals don't go into this level of detail which is why they sometimes get rejected.

A good example of how to set out an appeal can be seen in this thread, which was an apopeak about PF signage at Tottenham Hale station.

Stansted Airport fines

Went through today. Certainly is another huge poster on the right hand side above the ramp with a few different languages. It's all over the gates too. I wish the OP well with the appeal but I would be very surprised for GA to overturn it given how clear the signage is. Thanks - a few people...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Alex C.]

I don't think it really matters here if they fail to uphold the appeal - it is then not prosecutable and if they want to enforce it, they will need to make a civil claim - and I don't think any of those have been seen yet. Even if it goes all that way, and the court disagrees with the rationale, as long as you pay the amount + minimal costs within 28 days then there will be no adverse consequences (outside the 28 days, a CCJ will be added to your credit file)