Appealed Transpennine Penalty Fare for purchase after train departure

[Sumier]

Morning all,

I was travelling to work yesterday into Newcastle when I received a penalty fare notice from the ticket inspect for purchasing my ticket after departure. What actually happened, and what I have stated in my appeal, is that I got into Durham station and saw the train before the one I wanted to board (A Transpennine Express) was delayed by a few minutes so deceided to take it instead, and purchased an off-peak single while waiting in the queue outside the train doors.

My ground for appeal was that the penalty fare was issued contrary to regulation 5(1) Railway (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 whereby the only basis on which a penalty fare may be issued is for failing to comply with regulation 4, i.e., not showing a valid ticket when requested by a collector.

Does anyone have any knowledge of whether purchasing after departure actually does invalidate an off-peak single and whether it states so anywhere? Also any advice on what extra information I could include in my appeal to strengthen it would be great.

Many thanks

 

[ainsworth74]

What time did your transaction go through and what time did the train actually depart Durham (not the booked time, the actual time)? If you're comfortable would you mind saying which train it was so we can have a look at it's running information?

 

[Sumier]

What time did your transaction go through and what time did the train actually depart Durham (not the booked time, the actual time)? If you're comfortable would you mind saying which train it was so we can have a look at it's running information?

The transaction on my banking app says 17:58, and thats when I received my email confirmation as well. The train is registered as having departed at 18:57 on trainline but I don't know how accurate that is. The train was the 17:55 from Durham to Newcastle.

 

[Starmill]

The transaction on my banking app says 17:58, and thats when I received my email confirmation as well. The train is registered as having departed at 18:57 on trainline but I don't know how accurate that is. The train was the 17:55 from Durham to Newcastle.

So, to be absolutely and completely clear, the ticket was available for inspection on your device before you actually stepped onto the train? Even if it were only a few seconds before, say 5-10 seconds, that's potentially important.

The email app on my phone usually take 30-60 seconds to catch up after the ticket is viewable in-app when I use the LNER app straight before boarding. This makes sense as the retailer needs a few seconds to generate emails and things like that to send them out after the payment authorisation is finished, then my device needs a few seconds to download them.

Of course, if you make an appeal of the Penalty Fare, there's no real possibility for it to be cancelled and you to be prosecuted with a Byelaw offence anyway.

 

[Sumier]

So, to be absolutely and completely clear, the ticket was available for inspection on your device before you actually stepped onto the train? Even if it were only a few seconds before, say 5-10 seconds, that's potentially important.

Yes the tickets were available on my app before I entered the train, but I don't really have any way of proving that I guess. It was like the pop up message you get on trainline saying you're going to Newcastle with the "view your tickets" button

So, to be absolutely and completely clear, the ticket was available for inspection on your device before you actually stepped onto the train? Even if it were only a few seconds before, say 5-10 seconds, that's potentially important.

The email app on my phone usually take 30-60 seconds to catch up after the ticket is viewable in-app when I use the LNER app straight before boarding. This makes sense as the retailer needs a few seconds to generate emails and things like that to send them out after the payment authorisation is finished, then my device needs a few seconds to download them.

Of course, if you make an appeal of the Penalty Fare, there's no real possibility for it to be cancelled and you to be prosecuted with a Byelaw offence anyway.

Oh also on that, do you know where it says you cannot be prosecuted if you appeal a Penalty Fare, I've seen this rule mentioned around but I don't know what the authority for it is

 

[800Travel]

Here are the running times: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C12278/2024-04-16/detailed#allox_id=0
(This link is for the running times of the TransPennine Express Service at 17:55 from Durham to Newcastle yesterday which show the train departed Durham at 17:56:45).

OP, which train did you put in the itinerary? I ask only because (as far as I know) you wouldn't be able to select the TPE service if it had already departed so this may maybe act as evidence?

 

[Starmill]

Yes the tickets were available on my app before I entered the train, but I don't really have any way of proving that I guess. It was like the pop up message you get on trainline saying you're going to Newcastle with the "view your tickets" button

Yes, I would suggest that this means you did hold a valid ticket before boarding. As long as it was a ticket which the train you used takes, which it seems it was, this is all the defence you need, I think.

This point can be emphasised strongly for the appeal of the penalty fare. It's also important because of the wording of the Byelaw, but this may not matter too much if you're not being accused of breaking them.

 

[Sumier]

Here are the running times: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C12278/2024-04-16/detailed#allox_id=0
(This link is for the running times of the TransPennine Express Service at 17:55 from Durham to Newcastle yesterday which show the train departed Durham at 17:56:45).

OP, which train did you put in the itinerary? I ask only because (as far as I know) you wouldn't be able to select the TPE service if it had already departed so this may maybe act as evidence?

Yeah I had the 18:17 train open on my app because thats the one I wanted to go on originally, but through that I bought a off-peak single because I thought it would cover me for this train as well

 

[800Travel]

Yeah I had the 18:17 train open on my app because thats the one I wanted to go on originally, but through that I bought a off-peak single because I thought it would cover me for this train as well

Don't worry, an off peak single valid for that service would cover you for the one you took too. The TOC seems only to be disputing the ticket purchasing time. You could maybe contact the retailer and ask them what time the purchase went through on their systems, though this may serve against you if it isn't in your favour.

 

[Sumier]

Say the payment had only gone through after the departure of the train, it will have surely been just a few second right. Do you think there is any grounding for an appeal against their common sense policy or anything along those lines - or should I stick to hard case that I had a valid ticket and produced it when asked?

Here are the running times: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C12278/2024-04-16/detailed#allox_id=0
(This link is for the running times of the TransPennine Express Service at 17:55 from Durham to Newcastle yesterday which show the train departed Durham at 17:56:45).

OP, which train did you put in the itinerary? I ask only because (as far as I know) you wouldn't be able to select the TPE service if it had already departed so this may maybe act as evidence?

Also I've just checked on trainline, you are no longer able to purchase tickets for a train after the scheduled time of departure has passed even if it is delayed, so I had no option to buy a ticket directly for that train but had to use the one after it anyway

 

[Haywain]

Yeah I had the 18:17 train open on my app because thats the one I wanted to go on originally, but through that I bought a off-peak single because I thought it would cover me for this train as well

Although the 18:17 is a CrossCountry service, that shouldn't matter as the only Off Peak Day Single valid on that train is routed 'Any Permitted'. Can you confirm how much you paid for the ticket?

 

[Sumier]

Although the 18:17 is a CrossCountry service, that shouldn't matter as the only Off Peak Day Single valid on that train is routed 'Any Permitted'. Can you confirm how much you paid for the ticket?

I paid £3.15 with my railcard discount, and yeah it was an "any permitted route" ticket

 

[Haywain]

I paid £3.15 with my railcard discount, and yeah it was an "any permitted route" ticket

In which case you had a valid ticket, and if you showed this on demand there were no valid grounds for issuing you with a Penalty Fare. This means you will have valid grounds for an appeal.

 

[800Travel]

I paid £3.15 with my railcard discount, and yeah it was an "any permitted route" ticket

Definitely valid alongside your railcard. What time is shown for purchase on the 'expense receipt' under your trainline 'my tickets' section?

Also, did you happen to take a screenshot of your booking confirmation or anything? If so, what kind of phone do you have? If it is an iPhone, you can get a timestamp to the second by swiping up on the image, and clicking adjust. It'll give you the exact time the screenshot was taken so given we are talking about seconds here this may be useful.

 

[Sumier]

Definitely valid alongside your railcard. What time is shown for purchase on the 'expense receipt' under your trainline 'my tickets' section?

Also, did you happen to take a screenshot of your booking confirmation or anything? If so, what kind of phone do you have? If it is an iPhone, you can get a timestamp to the second by swiping up on the image, and clicking adjust. It'll give you the exact time the screenshot was taken so given we are talking about seconds here this may be useful.

I have an android unfortunately. And the expense receipt doesn't state a time of purchase as far as I can see, only the date

In which case you had a valid ticket, and if you showed this on demand there were no valid grounds for issuing you with a Penalty Fare. This means you will have valid grounds for an appeal.

I hope so, seems wild to me that the difference of a few seconds for a transaction to go through warrants a 50 quid fine. Hopefully the appeals board sees sense. Does anyone know of any argument the train operation could make saying I did not show a valid ticket? I had a look through the regulations and so on and nowhere does it say that a ticket purchased after daprture of the train is automatically invalid, so surely regardless of whether the transaction went through before or after the train departure I showed the inspector a valid ticket?

 

[Haywain]

so surely regardless of whether the transaction went through before or after the train departure I showed the inspector a valid ticket?

That's correct. To be clear, at what point was the Penalty Fare issued? And prior to it being issued did you show the actual eTicket that you had bought, rather than a booking confirmation email?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Just to clarify exact times?

Train departed durham 1756 and 3/4
Transaction reciept/confirmation email was 1758

 

[Sumier]

That's correct. To be clear, at what point was the Penalty Fare issued? And prior to it being issued did you show the actual eTicket that you had bought, rather than a booking confirmation email?

Penalty fare was issued at 18:01, and yeah I showed him the full eticket which he even took a photo of?

Just to clarify exact times?

Train departed durham 1756 and 3/4
Transaction reciept/confirmation email was 1758

Yeah seems to be that way - having a look now online it seems that email confirmation can arive anywhere from "shortly after" purchase to up to 2 hours later, so I dont know if my email confirmation is much proof of anything

 

[AlterEgo]

Penalty fare was issued at 18:01, and yeah I showed him the full eticket which he even took a photo of?


Yeah seems to be that way

Then you held a valid ticket and showed it on request and you cannot be Penalty Fared for this, as @Haywain says. Regardless of the fineries of the train’s actual departure time, “bought after boarding” is not a lawful reason for issuing a Penalty Fare.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

So if penalty fare was issued at 1801 that's almost immediately after departure, how soon after departure were you asked to show your ticket, this may be crucial as it's looks like down to a few minutes

 

[Sumier]

So if penalty fare was issued at 1801 that's almost immediately after departure, how soon after departure were you asked to show your ticket, this may be crucial as it's looks like down to a few minutes

I got onto the train and saw the inspector around halfway through checking tickets in the carriage to my right. I stood by the doors because there were no seats and I didnt fancy pushing my way past him. He made his way slowly through (I think someone else had an issue with their ticket) and got asked to show my ticket probably sometime around 18:00/01 though I cant really say for sure. So I was asked for my ticket literally like 3 minutes after departure.

Then you held a valid ticket and showed it on request and you cannot be Penalty Fared for this, as @Haywain says. Regardless of the fineries of the train’s actual departure time, “bought after boarding” is not a lawful reason for issuing a Penalty Fare.

Do you know any stories of people successfully appealing stating "bought after boarding" is not a lawful reason? Would fill me with confidence if this has worked for people in the past.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I seem to recall that if you post the ticket including the Aztec code, someone on here can actually read it and confirm the exact time the ticket was issued. (We had a very similar case recently where it was down to seconds as to whether it was issued prior to inspection.) I suspect it might confirm the Inspector's view of events, but if you are willing to post it, hopefully that person will see the post and confirm.

 

[Haywain]

Do you know any stories of people successfully appealing stating "bought after boarding" is not a lawful reason?

The appeal grounds are that you showed a valid ticket on demand, and the regulations do not allow for the issue of a Penalty Fare in these circumstances.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

So this is something you may need to be sure on, as if the inspector asked for tickets prior to 1758 you may have an issue,

It does seem quite quick to ask you for a ticket and then gather your name and address in roughly a minute and issue the penalty fare, timeline is going to be crucial here

 

[Haywain]

I seem to recall that if you post the ticket including the Aztec code, someone on here can actually read it and confirm the exact time the ticket was issued. (We had a very similar case recently where it was down to seconds as to whether it was issued prior to inspection.) I suspect it might confirm the Inspector's view of events, but if you are willing to post it, hopefully that person will see the post and confirm.

I don't think we should get bogged down with the time the ticket was purchased - that will only be relevant for a prosecution.

 

[Sumier]

So this is something you may need to be sure on, as if the inspector asked for tickets prior to 1758 you may have an issue,

It does seem quite quick to ask you for a ticket and then gather your name and address in roughly a minute and issue the penalty fare, timeline is going to be crucial here

There is no chance he asked for my tickets prior to 17:58 I can be sure of that, I was a bit stressed but there was no way the interaction with him took much longer than a minute or two. It went *scans ticket*, you've purchased that after departure, Im issuing you with a penalty charge, put your name and adress in here, *prints receipt* done.

I don't think we should get bogged down with the time the ticket was purchased - that will only be relevant for a prosecution.

... could I realistically be prosecuted for this?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

... could I realistically be prosecuted for this?

Appealing the penalty fare, regardless of reason removes that possibility is the short answer

 

[Haywain]

could I realistically be prosecuted for this?

It is very highly unlikely.

 

[Sumier]

Appealing the penalty fare, regardless of reason removes that possibility is the short answer

Seems like a big loophole lol, surely if you intentionally fare evade you can still be prosecuted for that even if you appeal every one of your penaltry fares

Also, just had a look at the detail of my appeal and they've included a picture of the inspectors ticket scanner which says the time was 18:03? No idea how that has happened since the penalty fare was issued at 18:01

 

[Haywain]

if you intentionally fare evade you can still be prosecuted for that even if you appeal every one of your penaltry fares

If you intentionally evade fares your luck will run out if you keep getting caught.